Is the new gameplay feature Vet Overland?

martinhpb16_ESO · December 2022

Paralyse wrote: »

Players who wanted much more difficult overland content got their wishes when Craglorn dropped. A vast majority of those same players soon ended up on the forums whining about how unfair it was that they had to (gasp!) group with other players to complete overland story content and quests. The complaining was so frequent, and so loud, that plans already underway to make a second Champion zone (Murkmire) were scrapped and it was turned into a regular DLC zone instead.

I think you are half correct.

No one was asking for more difficult content because there WAS difficult content.

The whining generally came from players who did not want to group up, and found it too hard solo, and who felt entitled to access ALL content irrespective of the implication on those that were enjoying Craglorn in groups or even solo.

Similarly there was a ton of whining about everyone levelling on those Crag events, which actually was a great way to meet people.

The end result was making it easy, the zone emptied out and we have had whining asking for more difficult content ever since.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

Cazador wrote: »

Your example of WBs is subjective. I've been playing since closed beta and my DPS characters before u35 could pull 30-40k, my healer/general content character could pull about 20k. Not sure about their numbers now since I haven't really done much since u35. I could solo a number of WBs, but a lot of them I can't at all, including the Angry Guar boss in Deshaan. You claim you didn't have CP but I wonder what gear you had because...I don't know, a level five character with next to no skills unlocked and starting gear having no trouble with that boss seems like quite a stretch. But even if that's the truth, you need to consider that difficulty is subjective and what you consider easy, a lot of other people will struggle with and be incapable of doing. Which is why they need to keep overland stuff on the easier side, because even if stuff is too easy you can at least still clear it. When stuff is too hard you don't have that ability.

When trimming for this it looks like the response was replying to me. Note that I cannot handle the Guar in Deshan with my max level gold geared Pet Sorc, so I am not arguing that is too easy. It is an impossible WB for me to take down on my own.

I am very skeptical of anyone who says they can take that down with no CP and white/green gear at level 5. Perhaps that can be done, but I doubt it.

My ongoing position is that many want a challenge, but that such "challenge" is relative and will not remain a challenge for long, not matter how much time is spent on it. Dev time is limited at some point and they cannot custom craft each overland encounter, thus a hammer approach is the most likely and that is unlikely to give what people claim to want.

My guess is that any revamp would rapidly become "not enough" as some learned to master it. But many would find it a hard wall and thus not do whatever was gated behind it. I personally don't do hardly any DLC dungeons because the unique mechanics that can make them almost impossible until you master them, even though I want some of the gear there.

Thus such a system would spend a lot of time for less than promised gains.

In addition, we have seen that what is wanted, such as an easy way to get skyshard on alts for example, became a Crown Store item rather than something logically in game to make grinding an alt a bit less of a grind that could focus more on playing the alt rather than skyshard gathering. AWA was another area where what many wanted (not needing to grind fishing on multiple alts, but being able to fish with whoever was active now, toward the fishing achievement, ended up being something very different that lost the "I finished this delve on this alt" reward for running many alts. Now I only know if I have done the dungeon boss by whether I have gathered the skyshard and I am finding I have stopped hanging around to wait for the boss spawn (which can take far too long) to even bother with that step many times. I pick up quests most times, but that is all now. (And I only do those because my addons track them. I would not be doing even that if I was still on the PS4.)

Keep in mind that what you get may not be what you want.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Paralyse wrote: »

Players who wanted much more difficult overland content got their wishes when Craglorn dropped. A vast majority of those same players soon ended up on the forums whining about how unfair it was that they had to (gasp!) group with other players to complete overland story content and quests. The complaining was so frequent, and so loud, that plans already underway to make a second Champion zone (Murkmire) were scrapped and it was turned into a regular DLC zone instead.

I think you are half correct.

No one was asking for more difficult content because there WAS difficult content.

The whining generally came from players who did not want to group up, and found it too hard solo, and who felt entitled to access ALL content irrespective of the implication on those that were enjoying Craglorn in groups or even solo.

Similarly there was a ton of whining about everyone levelling on those Crag events, which actually was a great way to meet people.

The end result was making it easy, the zone emptied out and we have had whining asking for more difficult content ever since.

I would say it showed that making "hard content" for that sake is not worthwhile. People would have loved the hard content there according to what was noted here. I started playing just after Summerset dropped, but I recall going to Craglorn briefly and found it impossible and thus I just didn't go there. It is certainly easier now and I had no problems during the past event, especially with others there.

Though I also remember getting quickly overwhelmed in the starting Malabal Tor area, not knowing what was going on. (I think I came into it the other direction after wandering across the map. I have since run through it many times and that "hard area" is no longer nearly as hard now that I know how to play better. (I couldn't figure out how to get off of Summerset at that time as well, to show how hard things were.)

My experience showed that even a putz like me can find things to be hard that then become "easy".

As a previous comment said though, I play this game to relax, not to have a second job. I don't mind needing some investigation, but too much gets annoying.

Cazador · December 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Cazador wrote: »

Your example of WBs is subjective. I've been playing since closed beta and my DPS characters before u35 could pull 30-40k, my healer/general content character could pull about 20k. Not sure about their numbers now since I haven't really done much since u35. I could solo a number of WBs, but a lot of them I can't at all, including the Angry Guar boss in Deshaan. You claim you didn't have CP but I wonder what gear you had because...I don't know, a level five character with next to no skills unlocked and starting gear having no trouble with that boss seems like quite a stretch. But even if that's the truth, you need to consider that difficulty is subjective and what you consider easy, a lot of other people will struggle with and be incapable of doing. Which is why they need to keep overland stuff on the easier side, because even if stuff is too easy you can at least still clear it. When stuff is too hard you don't have that ability.

When trimming for this it looks like the response was replying to me. Note that I cannot handle the Guar in Deshan with my max level gold geared Pet Sorc, so I am not arguing that is too easy. It is an impossible WB for me to take down on my own.

I am very skeptical of anyone who says they can take that down with no CP and white/green gear at level 5. Perhaps that can be done, but I doubt it.

My ongoing position is that many want a challenge, but that such "challenge" is relative and will not remain a challenge for long, not matter how much time is spent on it. Dev time is limited at some point and they cannot custom craft each overland encounter, thus a hammer approach is the most likely and that is unlikely to give what people claim to want.

My guess is that any revamp would rapidly become "not enough" as some learned to master it. But many would find it a hard wall and thus not do whatever was gated behind it. I personally don't do hardly any DLC dungeons because the unique mechanics that can make them almost impossible until you master them, even though I want some of the gear there.

Thus such a system would spend a lot of time for less than promised gains.

In addition, we have seen that what is wanted, such as an easy way to get skyshard on alts for example, became a Crown Store item rather than something logically in game to make grinding an alt a bit less of a grind that could focus more on playing the alt rather than skyshard gathering. AWA was another area where what many wanted (not needing to grind fishing on multiple alts, but being able to fish with whoever was active now, toward the fishing achievement, ended up being something very different that lost the "I finished this delve on this alt" reward for running many alts. Now I only know if I have done the dungeon boss by whether I have gathered the skyshard and I am finding I have stopped hanging around to wait for the boss spawn (which can take far too long) to even bother with that step many times. I pick up quests most times, but that is all now. (And I only do those because my addons track them. I would not be doing even that if I was still on the PS4.)

Keep in mind that what you get may not be what you want.

I didn't actually write that post you're replying to, not sure why it's saying me

BlueRaven · December 2022

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Paralyse wrote: »

Players who wanted much more difficult overland content got their wishes when Craglorn dropped. A vast majority of those same players soon ended up on the forums whining about how unfair it was that they had to (gasp!) group with other players to complete overland story content and quests. The complaining was so frequent, and so loud, that plans already underway to make a second Champion zone (Murkmire) were scrapped and it was turned into a regular DLC zone instead.

I think you are half correct.

No one was asking for more difficult content because there WAS difficult content.

The whining generally came from players who did not want to group up, and found it too hard solo, and who felt entitled to access ALL content irrespective of the implication on those that were enjoying Craglorn in groups or even solo.

Similarly there was a ton of whining about everyone levelling on those Crag events, which actually was a great way to meet people.

The end result was making it easy, the zone emptied out and we have had whining asking for more difficult content ever since.

The craglorn rebalance came in Patch 2.6.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/288585/pts-patch-notes-v2-6-0/p1

That was the "One Tamriel" patch btw.

That introduced Vet Dungeons with Monster helmets. It is quite possible people just moved on from Craglorn to do vet dungeon content for the monster helms.

Arunei · December 2022

@FlopsyPrince
That was my post, not Cazador's, and it was in response to the person I was quoting who claimed they took a level 5 NB to Deshaan to get fighting the WBs and had "no problem" with it. I've seen groups get rekt by that angy boi.

I do also agree with the point about any increase in difficulty not likely making the game better for very long. I've said in the Overland Difficulty thread that those who want more of a challenge will either experience one of two things if said increase is introduced; either the increase won't be enough and they'll still think it's too easy, or they'll adjust to the harder difficulty within a few weeks/months and likely begin to say content is too easy again.

One reason overland is easy (for those it's easy to) is because people have experience with the game. I imagine a good number of them have solid rotations, know how to weave and animation cancel, have really good (and golded) gear, and a decent number of CP. I honestly don't know if the average player does/bothers with/has most of that. Yes, I've seen people claim they know people who've just started out that claim overland is too easy right from the gate, and seen a small number of people claim that overland was too easy when they started. While it's true that there are probably people who ARE capable of doing well with little to no experience with the game, that number seems kind of small going just by the number of posts I've seen.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see what happens at the global reveal, but I'll genuinely be surprised if it's anything to do with increased difficulty.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

Arunei wrote: »

@FlopsyPrince
That was my post, not Cazador's, and it was in response to the person I was quoting who claimed they took a level 5 NB to Deshaan to get fighting the WBs and had "no problem" with it. I've seen groups get rekt by that angy boi.

I do also agree with the point about any increase in difficulty not likely making the game better for very long. I've said in the Overland Difficulty thread that those who want more of a challenge will either experience one of two things if said increase is introduced; either the increase won't be enough and they'll still think it's too easy, or they'll adjust to the harder difficulty within a few weeks/months and likely begin to say content is too easy again.

One reason overland is easy (for those it's easy to) is because people have experience with the game. I imagine a good number of them have solid rotations, know how to weave and animation cancel, have really good (and golded) gear, and a decent number of CP. I honestly don't know if the average player does/bothers with/has most of that. Yes, I've seen people claim they know people who've just started out that claim overland is too easy right from the gate, and seen a small number of people claim that overland was too easy when they started. While it's true that there are probably people who ARE capable of doing well with little to no experience with the game, that number seems kind of small going just by the number of posts I've seen.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see what happens at the global reveal, but I'll genuinely be surprised if it's anything to do with increased difficulty.

General comment: Don't worry if I responded to the "wrong person". I was more responding to the point and just trimmed things out, perhaps not the right things.

I fully agree that harder overland would not gain the long-term satisfaction some claim. Things facilitating grouping for such content would be far more helpful for much of the playerbase. I might do the harder things that are now a bit older, but I don't see groups there except maybe during events.

I would like some good quality of life improvements for my casual alt play. I would also like milder hammers in these forums, which has disappointed me in the past.

Mostly I would want them to treat their players and their ideas as important, even if they do not get implemented. Knowing we were heard and some comments on why or why not would be good.

My guess is still a form of "harder overland" that will not satisfy many people. Of course only time will tell.

Supreme_Atromancer · December 2022

Lucozade85 wrote: »

2) I get about accessibility but the game should offer tutorials and mission challenges to show how the combat functions in the game, including LA weaving. Each mission should be repeatable and can either have a rating system on your performance and you need to hit a certain level of performance before advancing on to the next stage. How is it right that you expect to complete a game, or play it fully without understanding how it works?

Who determines the level of performance? You?

Who determines light attack weaving is "how the game works"?

Its a meta. Its a part of a broad system that power-gamers finds to be the most efficient, and disseminate it.

I don't have a problem with it, personally- except for the point where its somehow jumped from "this is how you powergame" to "THIS IS THE WAY THE GAME IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED, AND IF YOU'RE NOT DOING IT, YOU'RE WRONG".

Lumsdenml · December 2022

I don't think it's ZOS's responsibility to help you increase your dps. You can get through 85% of the game without la weaving.... 95% with a buddy.

DMuehlhausen · December 2022

Not sure if it's been said, but I'm going to be guess on Dungeon/Trial solo story modes.

When people first talked about this I was against it. Dungeons and trials should be played as a group. However, remembering how Bioware did it with SWTOR and just how rude people in this playerbase are when somebody just wants to get the quest done and see the text to get the story I know support this.

Even last night did Tempest Island on a new character. Doing the quest and I forgot to use the second shard thing so that's on me. I realized it after we killed the final boss. Ask them to not use the shard at the last boss cause I had to run back. 2 people leave the group, then just after I get to the shard and use, the last person uses the last one and leaves the group.

Now I can't destroy the shard to move the quest along. So I have to run it again (which obviously would happen just due to pledges but still) to finish the quest. In story mode I could have 1. just been moving slower and probably not forgotten the first one I did. 2 If I had forgotten it, ran back gotten it and still been able to finish the story without being rushed.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I don't think it's ZOS's responsibility to help you increase your dps. You can get through 85% of the game without la weaving.... 95% with a buddy.

That is a poor view. Yes, ZOS doesn't need to make everyone top tier, but helping players learn how to play better - in the game - would be good for players and help keep them engaged and growing!

Yes, watching videos can help, for some at least, but translating that to practice is rough for some of us.

Remember the early tutorials? Kind of like those, but much more advanced.

MEBengalsFan2001 · December 2022

New game play mechanic is jumping now cost stamina.

I_killed_Vivec · December 2022

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Paralyse wrote: »

Players who wanted much more difficult overland content got their wishes when Craglorn dropped. A vast majority of those same players soon ended up on the forums whining about how unfair it was that they had to (gasp!) group with other players to complete overland story content and quests. The complaining was so frequent, and so loud, that plans already underway to make a second Champion zone (Murkmire) were scrapped and it was turned into a regular DLC zone instead.

I think you are half correct.

No one was asking for more difficult content because there WAS difficult content.

The whining generally came from players who did not want to group up, and found it too hard solo, and who felt entitled to access ALL content irrespective of the implication on those that were enjoying Craglorn in groups or even solo.

Similarly there was a ton of whining about everyone levelling on those Crag events, which actually was a great way to meet people.

The end result was making it easy, the zone emptied out and we have had whining asking for more difficult content ever since.

Again, only partially correct...

As has already been mentioned, Craglorn was gutted as part of 1T.

In any case, the "whining" wasn't because it was too hard to solo everything, it was because there were aspects that were impossible to solo, because in order to progress you needed people to step on plates simultaneously. Also remember that Craglorn was released in two parts, the second taking Vet ranks two levels further. After the hard content had dropped ZoS went and dropped even harder content.

The changes to Craglorn were to both remove the team requirements and to reduce the difficulty in accordance with 1T, removing the distinction between upper and lower Craglorn. When the changes were made there were plenty of people (including me) who begged for Craglorn to be left as a "hard zone", an area that would still present a real overland challenge. ZoS did not listen.

I loved Craglorn then for the pure challenge it represented, and certainly not for any rewards. If ZoS do try to implement a harder overland option then I hope they do it in the same spirit - to provide a challenge, with no greater material rewards.

Lucozade85 · December 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Lucozade85 wrote: »

2) I get about accessibility but the game should offer tutorials and mission challenges to show how the combat functions in the game, including LA weaving. Each mission should be repeatable and can either have a rating system on your performance and you need to hit a certain level of performance before advancing on to the next stage. How is it right that you expect to complete a game, or play it fully without understanding how it works?

Who determines the level of performance? You?

Who determines light attack weaving is "how the game works"?

Its a meta. Its a part of a broad system that power-gamers finds to be the most efficient, and disseminate it.

I don't have a problem with it, personally- except for the point where its somehow jumped from "this is how you powergame" to "THIS IS THE WAY THE GAME IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED, AND IF YOU'RE NOT DOING IT, YOU'RE WRONG".

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. How would I determine the level of performance someone else has in a tutorial?

The problem raised was that there's a large proportion of the community that struggle with the difficulty of the game as it is now, including overland. If this is the case then there's something fundamentally wrong and tutorials should be offered to help hone your combat effectiveness.

FlopsyPrince · December 2022

Lucozade85 wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Lucozade85 wrote: »

2) I get about accessibility but the game should offer tutorials and mission challenges to show how the combat functions in the game, including LA weaving. Each mission should be repeatable and can either have a rating system on your performance and you need to hit a certain level of performance before advancing on to the next stage. How is it right that you expect to complete a game, or play it fully without understanding how it works?

Who determines the level of performance? You?

Who determines light attack weaving is "how the game works"?

Its a meta. Its a part of a broad system that power-gamers finds to be the most efficient, and disseminate it.

I don't have a problem with it, personally- except for the point where its somehow jumped from "this is how you powergame" to "THIS IS THE WAY THE GAME IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED, AND IF YOU'RE NOT DOING IT, YOU'RE WRONG".

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. How would I determine the level of performance someone else has in a tutorial?

The problem raised was that there's a large proportion of the community that struggle with the difficulty of the game as it is now, including overland. If this is the case then there's something fundamentally wrong and tutorials should be offered to help hone your combat effectiveness.

I would add that some of those may not struggle with overland, but we don't want to struggle with overland.

Araneae6537 · December 2022

I would be disappointed if it was. While I would like delve and story bosses to scale better, that hardly seems a “feature”.

I hope that it will be spell crafting, if it allows for customization of the appearance of abilities. If so, this could meet several desires that I am aware of, including requests to update summoned pets, have options besides BEARS, maybe even have cool looking vampire abilities like summoning a bat swarm WITHOUT turning into an ugly abomination, and we should be able to revert some of the ability animations that were ruined, like templar jabs and flurry — options are GOOD, forced changes, not so much. Also, and more significantly for many players, this could give more options for customization and theory crafting. (Many will say there will be a single best option, but if so, that would be a design flaw IMHO; it will be better if “best option” is context dependent, including what kind of foe you’re going up against — if everything is just an HP total without different profiles of strengths, resistances, and weaknesses, that’s part of the problem! IMHO, it should be possible to be generally effective against all foes, or maximally effective against specific foes while relatively ineffective against others.)