Class mechanics in PvP

TechMaybeHic · December 2022

Right off the bat, with power ratings among the classes completely aside in what's OP or UP; I want to know if anyone is happy with how their class functions in PvP.

As an example; as templar took hits to really the burning light passive, it hurt; but what really was the nail in the coffin for me was the destruction of Prophecy of The Light cornering Templar to focus on Radiant Glory/oppression. It's worse than jabs as people who just spammed jabs were what they were but really you could just use it as a softener with the burst of POTL into an execute. Now, RO is pretty much the single thing. I just don't like the play style.

So I go play some other classes. NB I was using as a group build but really realized I want an AOEer, so I go to Necro. It's cool and all getting that DC pull, building into harmony; but then you realize that someone's not stealing your synergy but rather it's buggy. Sometimes you are in it and gave to step out then back in to use it. Sometimes if you run in it after it's down it doesn't show up. Sometimes it just doesn't hit what's supposedly in the circle because I guess position desync.

I could go on about every class; but the point is the question. DK, NB, and Warden are often considered top 3 but I've played those, and power level does not necessarily mean you're happy with it so I'd like to hear from those mains as well.

OBJnoob · December 2022

I'm happy with warden. I don't consider anything my main necessarily I play everything except templar and Necro, all types.

Wardens in a good spot obviously but ignoring that and on to your question... I consider warden to be, from a small scale perspective, an AoE brawler who does damage and ccs. It suits them to be tanky, suits them to have AoE stuns and immobilizes and ultimates. Now they lack an execute AND a super good spammable but with decent teammates your penetration debuffs ccs and pressure will be rewarded with lots of assists and the occasional kill. I like it a lot and it seems fitting.

jerj6925 · December 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm happy with warden. I don't consider anything my main necessarily I play everything except templar and Necro, all types.

Wardens in a good spot obviously but ignoring that and on to your question... I consider warden to be, from a small-scale perspective, an AoE brawler who does damage and ccs. It suits them to be tanky, suits them to have AoE stuns and immobilizes and ultimates. Now they lack an execute AND a super good spammable but with decent teammates your penetration debuffs ccs and pressure will be rewarded with lots of assists and the occasional kill. I like it a lot and it seems fitting.

You very clearly are not playing the warden well at all, I am watching single wardens take on 15+ players and instantly deleting people with no threat to their life bar, yes instantly killing them. To state they lack an execute and a spammable… they don’t need one, holy crap. Wardens are dominating PVP in a huge way right now followed closely by Dragon knights. I am seeing groups of 5 or less just avoid wardens altogether now they are so jacked, I guarantee you if the templar was performing even just somewhat close to how the warden is in PVP they would have brought the servers down for an emergency destruction patch to the templar.

Wardens are not in a good spot, they are just beyond stupid overpowered followed closely by the dragon knight and right now it’s just about all you see are Wardens\Dragon Knights followed by Necromancers.

Techmaybehic if you dont want to play a warden you can take a step down and play the dragon knight, the new fun build with this class is also using Dark convergence and using their AOE attacks they can almost instant kill 5, 10, 15 players just like Necros are doing.

TechMaybeHic · December 2022

jerj6925 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm happy with warden. I don't consider anything my main necessarily I play everything except templar and Necro, all types.

Wardens in a good spot obviously but ignoring that and on to your question... I consider warden to be, from a small-scale perspective, an AoE brawler who does damage and ccs. It suits them to be tanky, suits them to have AoE stuns and immobilizes and ultimates. Now they lack an execute AND a super good spammable but with decent teammates your penetration debuffs ccs and pressure will be rewarded with lots of assists and the occasional kill. I like it a lot and it seems fitting.

You very clearly are not playing the warden well at all, I am watching single wardens take on 15+ players and instantly deleting people with no threat to their life bar, yes instantly killing them. To state they lack an execute and a spammable… they don’t need one, holy crap. Wardens are dominating PVP in a huge way right now followed closely by Dragon knights. I am seeing groups of 5 or less just avoid wardens altogether now they are so jacked, I guarantee you if the templar was performing even just somewhat close to how the warden is in PVP they would have brought the servers down for an emergency destruction patch to the templar.

Wardens are not in a good spot, they are just beyond stupid overpowered followed closely by the dragon knight and right now it’s just about all you see are Wardens\Dragon Knights followed by Necromancers.

Techmaybehic if you dont want to play a warden you can take a step down and play the dragon knight, the new fun build with this class is also using Dark convergence and using their AOE attacks they can almost instant kill 5, 10, 15 players just like Necros are doing.

Not really worried about the power ranking of the classes, but what AOEs are the DKs using?

OBJnoob · December 2022

@jerj6925 There's always been some really good players/streamers who are out there Xing large groups of people and sadly that's not me. So to that extent I suppose I'm obviously not as good as them. But trust me I know what I'm doing. I must be doing something right anyway because I haven't been 1v1 deleted in... Well, I don't get 1v1 deleted, much less 15v1 deleted. The only times I get deleted at all is in a 15v15 fight with a little bit of lag... And it's always a necro that did it. I repeat always.

My suspicion is that maybe PC, or maybe Grey Host, has a lot larger population with a larger number of newish players, and these groups of new players are the ones being deleted.

fred4 · December 2022

What AOEs are DKs using? Noxious Breath, Leap, Plaguebreak, I guess. I don't think those things delete people like, say, a necro Harmony bomb, mainly because Leap spreads out the targets. Then again, I don't play my DK much these days, nor any tanky AOE / brawler build.

As a frequent solo player, I main a magblade. My build is uncompetitive in duels or even as a ganker, but I love the freedom to engage and disengage with a cloaking magblade at will, to bring my Tel Var home, to have the sustain and speed of a magblade in cloak.

Other than that, I think stamsorc is a lot of fun. Again, uncompetitive they say, but as a Brawler (the skill) sorc I mix AOE with Curse and the magsorc execute. That's nasty. Sorc has drawbacks in the healing department, but you're also kind of carefree with Streak and dodge rolling on the obligatory bow backbar. Zapping in and out of brawls is a lot of fun. You can afford to be less circumspect about what enemy numbers you streak into, because you can streak back out. You can test groups to see how good or bad they are without luring them to your chosen LoS opportunity. What I hate about brawler (the playstyle) builds is getting bogged down in one location. Sure, you might survive and kill someone every now and again in a tower or jammed between a box and a wall, but I've never relished that type of gameplay. If you know that's what you want, play a tanky brawler. If not, maybe try a stamsorc.

cuddles_with_wroble · December 2022

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Right off the bat, with power ratings among the classes completely aside in what's OP or UP; I want to know if anyone is happy with how their class functions in PvP.

As an example; as templar took hits to really the burning light passive, it hurt; but what really was the nail in the coffin for me was the destruction of Prophecy of The Light cornering Templar to focus on Radiant Glory/oppression. It's worse than jabs as people who just spammed jabs were what they were but really you could just use it as a softener with the burst of POTL into an execute. Now, RO is pretty much the single thing. I just don't like the play style.

So I go play some other classes. NB I was using as a group build but really realized I want an AOEer, so I go to Necro. It's cool and all getting that DC pull, building into harmony; but then you realize that someone's not stealing your synergy but rather it's buggy. Sometimes you are in it and gave to step out then back in to use it. Sometimes if you run in it after it's down it doesn't show up. Sometimes it just doesn't hit what's supposedly in the circle because I guess position desync.

I could go on about every class; but the point is the question. DK, NB, and Warden are often considered top 3 but I've played those, and power level does not necessarily mean you're happy with it so I'd like to hear from those mains as well.

I am upset as many players are.. its not very fun when classes like NB and warden are mega op and super buffed while classes like plar sorc and necro are forgotten and left to rot.

first ill get into cro, Necro has an amazing defensive toolkit while lacking entirely in the offensive toolkit... this makes the class feel weird and clunky and makes most people end up just playing a bomber. the sad reality is that not much else aside from bombing is super viable on the class. dswing builds just feel like worse stamdens that arent as tanky and dont do as much damage. master dw dot setups work and can be fun but overall arent very good either (its really just rapid rot passive that even makes this playable) playing staff magcro with no harmony is PAINFUL but overall can be done. the avg necro player is some sort of weird hybrid since magcro is pretty much dead and stamcro is just spamming weapon abilities with blastbones. there are many reasons why the class is bad but for a start it just doesnt have alot of basic things that every other class has these days, for example:

A) no sorcery or brutality in the class, this is a huge issue... every other class has this buff somewhere but cro still has to use pots or a skill to get it, thus taking up a bar space or our pot cooldowns.

B ) major minor breach, it does TECHNICALLY have this but its on a morph of a skill that you would never use in pvp AND only applies when they are standing inside the small aoe and doesnt linger like other skills do.

C) no real class spammable, yes we have skull but no one uses it for many reasons. first the damage is too low compared to other spammables you can get outside the class. second the animation is clunky and awful looking leading many people to ignore it. we do have stamina scyth now but that still doesnt do spammable lvls of damage.. its def better now and actually usable but its still not good enough to be used as your main spammable.

The main issue:

A) either fix or remove the skull spammable and make it actually usable and a viable skill to spam so we dont have to outsource. personally i hate the skill so id like to see it taken out and swapped for a different skill, howver if they really had to keep it and needed a fix for it id say just bring it in line with other spammables that people normally use in pvp (force pulse, dswing ,whip, ect.)

B ) stamina blastbones is utter garbage and has no reason to ever be slotted over the magicka one that deals way more damage. you need to either change the mag one to have a diff effect or give the stam one an equally powerful or the same effect to make it viable. ill talk about fixes for this skill when i get to the fixes.

C) a reliable instant cc, cro just doesnt have this... we have cc in our kit but its all really hard to line up and get people in and all of it is on useless skills that either you would never use or are just impractical to use in pvp (totem and grasp)

D) i kinda said this in the blast bones part and this is really just a game wide issue, not just a cro issue, but the morphs of skills are not equal AT ALL... this means that while on the surface, eso has alot of build options and diversity... in reality tho, there is always 1 morph that is CLEARLY better than the other for you to pick. so id like to see this fixed

some of my solutions:

A) first id change the dismember passive (currently gives 1500 pen) to give major sorc and brutality on the cast of a grave lord skill and throw the 1500 pen somewhere else or remove it entirely (could put it on skull as a "while slotted" idrk)

B ) give stamina blast bones SOMETHING to make it useable (could put the 1500 pen here or give it minor breach ect) it needs to be brought in line with the mag one.

C) personally id put major breach on both morph of blastbones (like warden should have on shalks). let the mag one do more damage and the stam one also give minor breach or vise versa it really doesnt matter which morph does what. (this is how i think warden should be too)

D) Glacial colossus suffers from the same issues as many other cro abilites do( useless compared to the other morph) and to fix this i would just remove the stun and instead make it snare targets for 30 -40% on hit for 3 seconds, thus still having the effect of keeping people in the area to get hit but updated to be more useful in the current patch.

E) personally id like to see an execute added to the class ( yes we have the crit passive but thats only at 25% and its useless anyway if your not in a crit build) you can either remove the cit passive and change it to do something more useful or my personal solution is just add a 100% execute to scyth just like spin 2 win has.

F) id also like to see more DoTs somewhere in the class just so we can take advantage of the DOT passive we have but thats a far off dream and not needed.

lmk your thoughts and opinions other cro mains!

TechMaybeHic · December 2022

Thanks for the write up @cuddles_with_wroble

I have been sticking with Necro as a group build myself. Harmony of course. I do use stam blast bones for major defile and stam scyth for a AOE spammmable with hemorrhage and off balance to accent in CP Cyrodiil. Spin to win to finish off.

You are pretty spot on about not a lot of solo options. Blast bones does not track well and is slow to fire. You can skip avid boneyard under a group, but alone with less chaos, probably not. Scythe is obviously way outpaced on individual targets, and sustain is mostly tied to other dieing or having a corpse to absorb. CC is then left for Dark Convergence or a heavy attack after scythe

To some extent; I'm ok with it being good in group damage, but not as solo as a trade off, but it doesn't seem everyone has to trade that off. And the niche, self synergy with Harmony is kind of lost if you're better off in a group anyway and a DK with corrosive up impacts synergy damage, and synergy activation is 8ften bugged and does not show

cuddles_with_wroble · December 2022

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Thanks for the write up @cuddles_with_wroble

I have been sticking with Necro as a group build myself. Harmony of course. I do use stam blast bones for major defile and stam scyth for a AOE spammmable with hemorrhage and off balance to accent in CP Cyrodiil. Spin to win to finish off.

You are pretty spot on about not a lot of solo options. Blast bones does not track well and is slow to fire. You can skip avid boneyard under a group, but alone with less chaos, probably not. Scythe is obviously way outpaced on individual targets, and sustain is mostly tied to other dieing or having a corpse to absorb. CC is then left for Dark Convergence or a heavy attack after scythe

To some extent; I'm ok with it being good in group damage, but not as solo as a trade off, but it doesn't seem everyone has to trade that off. And the niche, self synergy with Harmony is kind of lost if you're better off in a group anyway and a DK with corrosive up impacts synergy damage, and synergy activation is 8ften bugged and does not show

i would be more ok if the group damage was not also just fully lackluster aside from the niche of harmony bombing or abusing the rapid rot passive in high mmr bgs.

but yes you are correct the class does perform pretty well when you give it the support of a group and other class buffs it cant give itself

TechMaybeHic · December 2022

@Dekrypted

I feel this as a templar main, and even playing it in beta. People used to say Templar can "just jab and win" while I'd laugh not even having to break a sweat if I saw another Templar do that." Then jabs was nerfed but really; it's just ugly and fine. Burning light changes hurt, yet still, you could do ok as a decent Templar. Then POTL/PL got wrecked under battle spirit. Ironically they really shifted the power to Templar's that just spam Radiant Oppression/Glory from range over the jab spammers which at least had to be in melee out in front of the crowd rather than behind it.

There's still tanky Templar healers if course; but a legitimate brawler is dead

cuddles_with_wroble · December 2022

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

@Dekrypted

I feel this as a templar main, and even playing it in beta. People used to say Templar can "just jab and win" while I'd laugh not even having to break a sweat if I saw another Templar do that." Then jabs was nerfed but really; it's just ugly and fine. Burning light changes hurt, yet still, you could do ok as a decent Templar. Then POTL/PL got wrecked under battle spirit. Ironically they really shifted the power to Templar's that just spam Radiant Oppression/Glory from range over the jab spammers which at least had to be in melee out in front of the crowd rather than behind it.

There's still tanky Templar healers if course; but a legitimate brawler is dead

Templar healing is arguably the worst healer out of all the pvp healers.

In fact warden healing is so strong compared to the other healers that it invalidates the choice of class and just makes warden really the only healer.

gariondavey · December 2022

Dekrypted wrote: »

I'd like to add/continue as I have been since Firesong dropped that the "rework" to backlash and it's respective morphs shouldn't have gone live in its current state when it comes to pvp. There were countless threads in the PTS section showing the problem that templars are facing now in pvp.

While I can understand that PvP as a whole for sure takes a back seat when comparing it to PvE, this rework has 100% thrown Templars into a role that isn't enjoyable or engaging at all. I run a Templar focused guild and personally have over 18,000 hours played on templar, majority of it in PvP. I've never in all my years playing this game (since launch) seen fellow templar mains this demoralized when it comes to playing the class they love.

We've been told in the past "Play how you want", yet are clearly not being allowed to do so. The adjustments to templar in this year alone have followed the "Sledgehammer" approach to adjusting skills for the game compared to a light touch with high quality testing that could easily ease Chamge fatigue among the myriad of other complaints.

There are currently 2 threads that have alot of information in them about the problems with the skill. In my circles, we've surmised that the problem has something to do with how Battle Spirit is interacting with the skill. It's completely inexcusable to run 10k spell damage, 100% armor penetration and literally hit 3k from the ability. With the way this class has been "adjusted" over the many years of its existence, these recent changes, especially to backlash and it's respective morphs has been the most disappointing. There has been no acknowledgment from the devs on if they're aware of this and their silence at this point speaks volumes.

Here are the threads:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621581/purify-power-of-the-light-u36/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621126/templar-underperforming/p1

I know that @ZOS_Kevin probably gets a million pings, but I'm shooting my shot here. What's going on with the skill?

Here to say the same thing!

Zekka · December 2022

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

A) first id change the dismember passive (currently gives 1500 pen) to give major sorc and brutality on the cast of a grave lord skill and throw the 1500 pen somewhere else or remove it entirely (could put it on skull as a "while slotted" idrk)

I'd leave the pen and look for another passive, necro doesn't have much to help its damage already but yeah major brutality/sorcery from a passive would help a lot, NBs get major resolve like that already.
The best proposition I've seen came from @katorga to make it grant the buff every time a summoning ability is used (blastbones, mender, skeleton).

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

D) Glacial colossus suffers from the same issues as many other cro abilites do( useless compared to the other morph) and to fix this i would just remove the stun and instead make it snare targets for 30 -40% on hit for 3 seconds, thus still having the effect of keeping people in the area to get hit but updated to be more useful in the current patch.

Snares do nothing, the solution for Glacial colossus (a completely outclassed and useless morph since hybridization) is simple, put the stun on the first tick instead of last, it would have been too strong back when major vuln was 30% but now that it's a paltry 10% it should be fine.

I would add: make Grave grasp a useable stun, it's too cool looking to be so useless.
Make Animate blastbones an offensive ult by removing the resurrection part, cutting the ult cost in half (but keeping the corpse cost) and toning the damage down if necessary.
And finally, delete Dark Convergence.

cuddles_with_wroble · December 2022

Zekka wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

A) first id change the dismember passive (currently gives 1500 pen) to give major sorc and brutality on the cast of a grave lord skill and throw the 1500 pen somewhere else or remove it entirely (could put it on skull as a "while slotted" idrk)

I'd leave the pen and look for another passive, necro doesn't have much to help its damage already but yeah major brutality/sorcery from a passive would help a lot, NBs get major resolve like that already.
The best proposition I've seen came from @katorga to make it grant the buff every time a summoning ability is used (blastbones, mender, skeleton).

Yea but what passive are you saying we should rework/ remove to get that buff from a passive? You would have to give up something and I think the pen is the best spot to have that buff.

Zekka wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

D) Glacial colossus suffers from the same issues as many other cro abilites do( useless compared to the other morph) and to fix this i would just remove the stun and instead make it snare targets for 30 -40% on hit for 3 seconds, thus still having the effect of keeping people in the area to get hit but updated to be more useful in the current patch.
Snares do nothing, the solution for Glacial colossus (a completely outclassed and useless morph since hybridization) is simple, put the stun on the first tick instead of last, it would have been too strong back when major vuln was 30% but now that it's a paltry 10% it should be fine.

You underestimate how strong a 40 - 50% snare would be on that ulti for pulling off your burst combo large scale. Giving it just a straight stun just makes it a worse dawnbreaker no? I think with the snare option it would open you up to more burst combos and still not proc the cc immunity for dark convergence (the only time you use this ult) so you can still use your bomb combo. If you just give it a stun I don’t see people using it over the higher damage morph when harmony bombing is the main part of necros kit.

Zekka wrote: »

I would add: make Grave grasp a useable stun, it's too cool looking to be so useless.
Make Animate blastbones an offensive ult by removing the resurrection part, cutting the ult cost in half (but keeping the corpse cost) and toning the damage down if necessary.
And finally, delete Dark Convergence.

[/quote]

Animate blast bones will still summon the blast bones off corpses with no actual resurrections. And I think touching it is a mistake as it already 1 shots people if all 4 or 5 hit you

Zekka · December 2022

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Yea but what passive are you saying we should rework/ remove to get that buff from a passive? You would have to give up something and I think the pen is the best spot to have that buff.

Shove it in any of the numerous necro useless passives, and why should it give up something when the class received lots of nerfs, some justified and some not, with no compensation?

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

You underestimate how strong a 40 - 50% snare would be on that ulti for pulling off your burst combo large scale. Giving it just a straight stun just makes it a worse dawnbreaker no? I think with the snare option it would open you up to more burst combos and still not proc the cc immunity for dark convergence (the only time you use this ult) so you can still use your bomb combo. If you just give it a stun I don’t see people using it over the higher damage morph when harmony bombing is the main part of necros kit.

No I don't underestimate it, dude Dark convergence already comes with a 60% snare and what happens when you try to do an harmony combo on a cc immune target? They dodge roll out of it or pop Race against time and sprint out of the AoE because the snare does nothing.
A stun would make Glacial colossus burstier than Dawnbreaker, 2 Glacial colossus ticks + Major vulnerability >> Dawnbreaker direct damage part. My goal is to make the ult stand on its own and not absolutely need DC, that a class has to wear a certain set just to make its class skills work is awful design, so a stun on the first tick would make it a good option over Dawnbreaker in a harmony build but without DC.

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Animate blast bones will still summon the blast bones off corpses with no actual resurrections. And I think touching it is a mistake as it already 1 shots people if all 4 or 5 hit you

I know that, I've used it. I want the resurrection part removed because it's clearly part of its power budget and the main reason why it's so expensive.
Players interested in rezing people in both PvE and PvP already pick Renewing animation, no need for 2 res ults and it has potential for opening up a new more necromancer like playstyle that isn't harmony for the class.
It really OS people (not even reliably) on full damage meme builds dedicated to it but like I said tone the damage down if necessary also what 5 blastbones? you can get 3 blastbones with 3 corpses out of it max (not counting the blastbone from the skill itself obviously).

Jabbs_Giggity · December 2022

No DK mains posted? Assuming to avoid a nerfing.
#nerfsorc

Baconlad · December 2022

Templar main since 2014. (My only toon)

I personally am happy with the changes, I'll preface by saying that I stopped using jabs back during summerset, have been using dark flare as my spammable ever since.

I never cared for jabs. I have always loved the sun mage aesthetic. However I don't agree with the nerfs to jabs, I hoped they would bring other spammables up to par. Templar rely on the spam...I can't think of another class who has relied on one skill so much, they nerfed jabs but didn't help us in other areas too much

But for MY playstyle and not the majority of Templar, I have recieved what I perceive as buffs.

Now I get to take advantage of burning light where as before I couldn't, it was useless to my playstyle.

I get to use dark flare as my pve spammable and don't feel too bad that I'm only losing a small amount of DPS over the new weakened jabs.

The nerfs to purifying light don't effect me, I don't use it.

The somewhat old changes to javelin are amazing

The buff to radiant destruction damage means I get to hit the common player for 14k radiant destruction (average full channel with NO crits and burning light at 100%health!!) This means I negate your vigor and some...only way to stop is to bash me or block, you do anything else and that damage is ramping up fast. I've hit squishblades at 100% health and gotten 6k crits, three tics over 2 seconds plus burning light...hope I didn't hit you with a flare or javelin.

I love the changes, flare could be buffed a bit. But I don't want every Templar and his mother running my setup, I like being unique XD

Redguards_Revenge · December 2022

Templar REdguard...think about that for a bit...

Caribou77 · December 2022

I think the fact that many stam builds, regardless of class, are still using dizzy/executioner or whirling blades as their spammable says a lot about the state of things. 2 exceptions are DK and NB.

Seems an effective spammable is an important part of class identity, and having fun playing your class.