Capture the Relic in a nutshell

SkaraMinoc · September 2022

Pit Daemons speed run the relic while Storm Lords attack Fire Drakes 4v4.

15 minute queue, 2 minutes of gameplay.

Holycannoli · September 2022

That's what happens when randoms queue for the weekend event and don't care about playing the objective they're just gonna play it as deathmatch and hope this match is the match that gets the daily bonus done.

auz · September 2022

If people want to play the objective, they will. If they don't, they won't. Is it the fault of the people? Or is the objective just not interesting? Maybe the rewards are not enticing?
The domination and crazy King are going to be so much worse. Chaosball is just going to be full of tanks and so painful.

thesarahandcompany · September 2022

I don't get the point of this weekend idea. Like it does nothing but rearrange some furniture in the apartment. Where's the real content? This patch is such a let down and the upcoming one too. Another year no content. Everyone's jaded and cappy the relic weekends just don't cut it.

1) Half a decade no new PVP content
2) Declining population (just look at steam charts)
3) 2 hour queues (as punishment) for playing an online game with friends
4) Performance over the last weeks in cyro is getting much much worse
5) The same formulaic model for new dungeons/trials every year, with reskinned mechanics and animations

I play <1 hr a week now, canceled sub. It's just not worth the price point anymore.

OBJnoob · September 2022

What is the problem exactly? Sounds like two teams were full of knuckleheads and the best team won. Gg.

Are we seriously blaming the green team for doing what they're supposed to do? Or bemoaning the fact that somehow all that awesome fighting didn't result in victory?

You could've gone to the green relic to fight. Or tried to defend your own. Or extricated yourself from the melee to get the purple relic... Or at least be there when the green team was trying to take it.

Honestly doing anything except what your team chose to do would've solved this problem for you. Pretty sure you had 4 warnings.

I understand being stubborn... I am very stubborn. I just don't understand blaming others for things we do to ourselves.

auz · September 2022

All that awesome fighting? There were 6 kills total for the match. Less than 1 mill damage.
I don't think anyone is saying anything negative about the green team. They played the game and won.
The point is, the game mode sucks.
It is objectively bad design, conducive to exploitation and is not fun.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 2022

auz wrote: »

All that awesome fighting? There were 6 kills total for the match. Less than 1 mill damage.
I don't think anyone is saying anything negative about the green team. They played the game and won.
The point is, the game mode sucks.
It is objectively bad design, conducive to exploitation and is not fun.

This. Winning without fighting in a PvP gamemode shouldn't be easy, and it definitely shouldn't be the norm. The objective modes are poorly designed.

xDeusEJRx · September 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

What is the problem exactly? Sounds like two teams were full of knuckleheads and the best team won. Gg.

Are we seriously blaming the green team for doing what they're supposed to do? Or bemoaning the fact that somehow all that awesome fighting didn't result in victory?

You could've gone to the green relic to fight. Or tried to defend your own. Or extricated yourself from the melee to get the purple relic... Or at least be there when the green team was trying to take it.

Honestly doing anything except what your team chose to do would've solved this problem for you. Pretty sure you had 4 warnings.

I understand being stubborn... I am very stubborn. I just don't understand blaming others for things we do to ourselves.

The problem, is this is supposed to be a pvp game mode and people are winning without pvp'ing or minimal amount possible. As he said, 15 minute queue for 2 minutes of gameplay. How exactly do you expect to stop a team with people with capped out speed just to run relics, or block tanks who just bash you for trying to get relic. or healers that don't allow you to kill anyone pulling relics?

These people play with the intent of cheesing the gamemode to win in 2 minutes. It's not fun or engaging for anyone who actually wants to pvp to get relics, because the game mode doesn't require pvp in order to get relics, it just requires you to be able to press a button to grab one and then run away. Which 90% of the time it's people who are just steam walking or speedrunning to grab and go.

Is it my fault for TRYING to kill people who are stopping me for grabbing the relic, or TRYING to defend my own relic? No, but there's absolutely no way you can play against these people fairly because they are just trying to win as quickly and easily as possible, not actually have fun.

I've tried very hard to enjoy capture the relic event, but there's no way i can kill dedicated healers or 50k health tanks who are just bash blocking you from the relic on every team. For no fault of my own can I actually PLAY the objective because of these players, nor can I do anything else because im locked into this stupid game mode.

This is why people don't like capture the relic or capture the relic weekend.

thesarahandcompany · September 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

What is the problem exactly? Sounds like two teams were full of knuckleheads and the best team won. Gg.

Are we seriously blaming the green team for doing what they're supposed to do? Or bemoaning the fact that somehow all that awesome fighting didn't result in victory?

You could've gone to the green relic to fight. Or tried to defend your own. Or extricated yourself from the melee to get the purple relic... Or at least be there when the green team was trying to take it.

Honestly doing anything except what your team chose to do would've solved this problem for you. Pretty sure you had 4 warnings.

I understand being stubborn... I am very stubborn. I just don't understand blaming others for things we do to ourselves.

OP isn't blaming these people, OP is saying the modes/BG system promotes these player's behaviours.

OBJnoob · October 2022

I'll try not to be rude as I suppose I have been in the past... But again me -v- everyone else here seems to be a HUGE disconnect.

All the responses to me were basically the same. "Nobody is blaming the green team."

Okay? Good. That's a start. Now let's make the mental leap to whose fault it actually is. Zos can take 50% of the blame for not having a very good queu system where people who want to death match can have fun.

But we are all responsible for making our own decisions under good or bad circumstances. In their rush to get their death match thrill the two losing teams completely abandoned the game mode in favor of fighting. Which only lasted a few minutes and resulted in very few kills.

Is it not likely (if not smack you in the face obvious,) that paying more attention to the objective would've extended the match and therefore extended the fighting? That a less dense and more spread out and objective oriented fight lasting 10 minutes would in fact include more fun than 2 minutes of frantic aimless brawl?

Honestly I feel like I'm trying way too hard to explain something rather simple and as a result being rather brobdingnagian and hard to understand. Don't you guys and gals understand what I'm saying? Moreover don't you know I'm right? And, if you're being honest, aren't matches like this just an obvious example of an ongoing protest that HURTS everybody?

I'm sorry but you can't stage a sit-in and then complain that there's no where comfortable to sit.

OBJnoob · October 2022

@xDeusEJRx So I reread your post because there was some substantial stuff there that I didn't address. I feel you on all of that, and agree that I have had these same problems. I want to point out though that you are simultaneously saying its impossible to pick up relics because of unkillable bash tanks and saying its impossible to stop your own relic from being picked up or ran. These can't both be true at the same time. How come you are struggling to pick up relics but they aren't? Surely there is something YOU can do.

We havent talked about death match in a while for obvious and unfortunate reasons but do you forget so quickly all the cross healing, dk only, nobody ever dies, meta pigeonhole complaints?

I mean I get it... Most of you prefer that to this. But I don't think you can objectively say it was less exploited or stale. It was 15 minutes of fighting, I'll give you that, but me personally I don't much like aoe parsing for 15 minutes straight wasting all my potions for 3 million damage and only 3 kills.

SoulwayFilth · October 2022

The point games can turn out to be okay if you do play for objectives. A team 4 man rolling won't win it & you do need to split. But one of the modes just has way to many flags where you can still have 1 person just running & capping to win.

Other modes are just abused & don't really provide PvP. You get a DM with pretty much DK's & Wardens & yes, it is AOE spam fest where no one really die's if they have any idea on how to play & decent gear.

Firstmep · October 2022

This is not even the worst.
My favorite ones when the winning team has like 0-10 0-20 kda across the board, but they still win beacuse they just keep 3rd party capping and throwing their bodies at relic defense.
It just feels amazing when you 1 vs 4 wipe the enemy team and they res and bash you before you can pick up the relic.
Truly wonderful design.

auz · October 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'll try not to be rude as I suppose I have been in the past... But again me -v- everyone else here seems to be a HUGE disconnect.

All the responses to me were basically the same. "Nobody is blaming the green team."

Okay? Good. That's a start. Now let's make the mental leap to whose fault it actually is. Zos can take 50% of the blame for not having a very good queu system where people who want to death match can have fun.

But we are all responsible for making our own decisions under good or bad circumstances. In their rush to get their death match thrill the two losing teams completely abandoned the game mode in favor of fighting. Which only lasted a few minutes and resulted in very few kills.

Is it not likely (if not smack you in the face obvious,) that paying more attention to the objective would've extended the match and therefore extended the fighting? That a less dense and more spread out and objective oriented fight lasting 10 minutes would in fact include more fun than 2 minutes of frantic aimless brawl?

Honestly I feel like I'm trying way too hard to explain something rather simple and as a result being rather brobdingnagian and hard to understand. Don't you guys and gals understand what I'm saying? Moreover don't you know I'm right? And, if you're being honest, aren't matches like this just an obvious example of an ongoing protest that HURTS everybody?

I'm sorry but you can't stage a sit-in and then complain that there's no where comfortable to sit.

What part of this self aggrandisement ramble shows the game mode to be well thought out and implemented, balanced or fun?

Blaming players for an exploitable and broken game mode is weak. Skara and his team could obviously not do anything other than protect their relic. Dividing the team to attack green would have just let purple take their own relic. Skaras team is actually being punished for playing the objective and defending their relic.

The only way the outcome would have been different is if purple had thought to defend their own relic instead of playing ultra aggressive. Relying on players to create the balance and equal competition of the game shows just how poorly thought out this objective is.

Solariken · October 2022

This mode should be redesigned. Instead of 3 relics at bases it should be 1 relic in the middle of the map that all teams have to fight over.

Dragonredux · October 2022

Capture the Relic (Flag) really doesn't work with 3 teams. Especially if one team decides to bully another.

OBJnoob · October 2022

auz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'll try not to be rude as I suppose I have been in the past... But again me -v- everyone else here seems to be a HUGE disconnect.

All the responses to me were basically the same. "Nobody is blaming the green team."

Okay? Good. That's a start. Now let's make the mental leap to whose fault it actually is. Zos can take 50% of the blame for not having a very good queu system where people who want to death match can have fun.

But we are all responsible for making our own decisions under good or bad circumstances. In their rush to get their death match thrill the two losing teams completely abandoned the game mode in favor of fighting. Which only lasted a few minutes and resulted in very few kills.

Is it not likely (if not smack you in the face obvious,) that paying more attention to the objective would've extended the match and therefore extended the fighting? That a less dense and more spread out and objective oriented fight lasting 10 minutes would in fact include more fun than 2 minutes of frantic aimless brawl?

Honestly I feel like I'm trying way too hard to explain something rather simple and as a result being rather brobdingnagian and hard to understand. Don't you guys and gals understand what I'm saying? Moreover don't you know I'm right? And, if you're being honest, aren't matches like this just an obvious example of an ongoing protest that HURTS everybody?

I'm sorry but you can't stage a sit-in and then complain that there's no where comfortable to sit.

What part of this self aggrandisement ramble shows the game mode to be well thought out and implemented, balanced or fun?

Blaming players for an exploitable and broken game mode is weak. Skara and his team could obviously not do anything other than protect their relic. Dividing the team to attack green would have just let purple take their own relic. Skaras team is actually being punished for playing the objective and defending their relic.

The only way the outcome would have been different is if purple had thought to defend their own relic instead of playing ultra aggressive. Relying on players to create the balance and equal competition of the game shows just how poorly thought out this objective is.

Self aggrandizement? Not sure this is a fair critique... Perhaps something I said previously more so than this actual post?

Honestly this same discussion, in various hues, has taken place again and again over the course of, oh, say 6 months. Yours isn't a name I recognize from those discussions so honestly I wonder if you have a handle on the whole context and scope of this issue.

But it really doesn't matter. I'm here with one goal in mind-- to warn against and prevent if possible the homogenization of all battleground game modes into being glorified desthmatches where even the objectives force all 12 people into being into a single area. So that a certain uniqueness that at least I enjoy is not lost.

I don't know why you think I'm trying to put myself on a pedestal... I'm certainly guilty of that demeanor sometimes but not at the moment.

But I can see that nobody agrees with me in the slightest. So I'll remove myself from the discussion... I just worry that this and other topics like it will turn into echo chambers that improperly represent the player base.

I was queing for battlegrounds during the capture the relic weekend event and getting games continuously in under 2 minutes. Compare that to the 10 or 15 it normally takes on my platform and tell me everybody hates capture the relic with a straight face.

I've heard a lot about how high MMR is the same 16 players constantly fighting each other. And I've heard people vouching for some people advocating for certain things assuring me that oh they are one of the top 16 players they know what they're talking about they need to be listened to.

No. Serious changes to the lore (three alliance war hello,) and fundamental mode design which attracted the player base they have now don't need to be balanced around what would make 16 people, who seek greater competition, happy.

Nor do we need to entertain sob stories about being victims of the very rebellion certain involved parties have become advocates for.

Firstmep · October 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

auz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'll try not to be rude as I suppose I have been in the past... But again me -v- everyone else here seems to be a HUGE disconnect.

All the responses to me were basically the same. "Nobody is blaming the green team."

Okay? Good. That's a start. Now let's make the mental leap to whose fault it actually is. Zos can take 50% of the blame for not having a very good queu system where people who want to death match can have fun.

But we are all responsible for making our own decisions under good or bad circumstances. In their rush to get their death match thrill the two losing teams completely abandoned the game mode in favor of fighting. Which only lasted a few minutes and resulted in very few kills.

Is it not likely (if not smack you in the face obvious,) that paying more attention to the objective would've extended the match and therefore extended the fighting? That a less dense and more spread out and objective oriented fight lasting 10 minutes would in fact include more fun than 2 minutes of frantic aimless brawl?

Honestly I feel like I'm trying way too hard to explain something rather simple and as a result being rather brobdingnagian and hard to understand. Don't you guys and gals understand what I'm saying? Moreover don't you know I'm right? And, if you're being honest, aren't matches like this just an obvious example of an ongoing protest that HURTS everybody?

I'm sorry but you can't stage a sit-in and then complain that there's no where comfortable to sit.

What part of this self aggrandisement ramble shows the game mode to be well thought out and implemented, balanced or fun?

Blaming players for an exploitable and broken game mode is weak. Skara and his team could obviously not do anything other than protect their relic. Dividing the team to attack green would have just let purple take their own relic. Skaras team is actually being punished for playing the objective and defending their relic.

The only way the outcome would have been different is if purple had thought to defend their own relic instead of playing ultra aggressive. Relying on players to create the balance and equal competition of the game shows just how poorly thought out this objective is.

Self aggrandizement? Not sure this is a fair critique... Perhaps something I said previously more so than this actual post?

Honestly this same discussion, in various hues, has taken place again and again over the course of, oh, say 6 months. Yours isn't a name I recognize from those discussions so honestly I wonder if you have a handle on the whole context and scope of this issue.

But it really doesn't matter. I'm here with one goal in mind-- to warn against and prevent if possible the homogenization of all battleground game modes into being glorified desthmatches where even the objectives force all 12 people into being into a single area. So that a certain uniqueness that at least I enjoy is not lost.

I don't know why you think I'm trying to put myself on a pedestal... I'm certainly guilty of that demeanor sometimes but not at the moment.

But I can see that nobody agrees with me in the slightest. So I'll remove myself from the discussion... I just worry that this and other topics like it will turn into echo chambers that improperly represent the player base.

I was queing for battlegrounds during the capture the relic weekend event and getting games continuously in under 2 minutes. Compare that to the 10 or 15 it normally takes on my platform and tell me everybody hates capture the relic with a straight face.

I've heard a lot about how high MMR is the same 16 players constantly fighting each other. And I've heard people vouching for some people advocating for certain things assuring me that oh they are one of the top 16 players they know what they're talking about they need to be listened to.

No. Serious changes to the lore (three alliance war hello,) and fundamental mode design which attracted the player base they have now don't need to be balanced around what would make 16 people, who seek greater competition, happy.

Nor do we need to entertain sob stories about being victims of the very rebellion certain involved parties have become advocates for.

Pvp by its nature is competitive.
Eso is the first game I pvpd in where you can just throw your corpse at the objective without ever actually trying fight other players and still win.
I still dont know how it is fun for any casual player to die 20 times in a bg, even if they manage to win the game.
Also whether ppl like it or not, there are competitive players, and despite zos' best efforts they are here to stay and have their say.

auz · October 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

auz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'll try not to be rude as I suppose I have been in the past... But again me -v- everyone else here seems to be a HUGE disconnect.

All the responses to me were basically the same. "Nobody is blaming the green team."

Okay? Good. That's a start. Now let's make the mental leap to whose fault it actually is. Zos can take 50% of the blame for not having a very good queu system where people who want to death match can have fun.

But we are all responsible for making our own decisions under good or bad circumstances. In their rush to get their death match thrill the two losing teams completely abandoned the game mode in favor of fighting. Which only lasted a few minutes and resulted in very few kills.

Is it not likely (if not smack you in the face obvious,) that paying more attention to the objective would've extended the match and therefore extended the fighting? That a less dense and more spread out and objective oriented fight lasting 10 minutes would in fact include more fun than 2 minutes of frantic aimless brawl?

Honestly I feel like I'm trying way too hard to explain something rather simple and as a result being rather brobdingnagian and hard to understand. Don't you guys and gals understand what I'm saying? Moreover don't you know I'm right? And, if you're being honest, aren't matches like this just an obvious example of an ongoing protest that HURTS everybody?

I'm sorry but you can't stage a sit-in and then complain that there's no where comfortable to sit.

What part of this self aggrandisement ramble shows the game mode to be well thought out and implemented, balanced or fun?

Blaming players for an exploitable and broken game mode is weak. Skara and his team could obviously not do anything other than protect their relic. Dividing the team to attack green would have just let purple take their own relic. Skaras team is actually being punished for playing the objective and defending their relic.

The only way the outcome would have been different is if purple had thought to defend their own relic instead of playing ultra aggressive. Relying on players to create the balance and equal competition of the game shows just how poorly thought out this objective is.

Self aggrandizement? Not sure this is a fair critique... Perhaps something I said previously more so than this actual post?

Honestly this same discussion, in various hues, has taken place again and again over the course of, oh, say 6 months. Yours isn't a name I recognize from those discussions so honestly I wonder if you have a handle on the whole context and scope of this issue.

But it really doesn't matter. I'm here with one goal in mind-- to warn against and prevent if possible the homogenization of all battleground game modes into being glorified desthmatches where even the objectives force all 12 people into being into a single area. So that a certain uniqueness that at least I enjoy is not lost.

I don't know why you think I'm trying to put myself on a pedestal... I'm certainly guilty of that demeanor sometimes but not at the moment.

But I can see that nobody agrees with me in the slightest. So I'll remove myself from the discussion... I just worry that this and other topics like it will turn into echo chambers that improperly represent the player base.

I was queing for battlegrounds during the capture the relic weekend event and getting games continuously in under 2 minutes. Compare that to the 10 or 15 it normally takes on my platform and tell me everybody hates capture the relic with a straight face.

I've heard a lot about how high MMR is the same 16 players constantly fighting each other. And I've heard people vouching for some people advocating for certain things assuring me that oh they are one of the top 16 players they know what they're talking about they need to be listened to.

No. Serious changes to the lore (three alliance war hello,) and fundamental mode design which attracted the player base they have now don't need to be balanced around what would make 16 people, who seek greater competition, happy.

Nor do we need to entertain sob stories about being victims of the very rebellion certain involved parties have become advocates for.

That was a lot of words to not respond to any points made. However, I appreciate not wanting to discuss bg objective merits. I was and have been around long enough to see the many arguments for and against, despite you recognising my name or not, and am tired of it, too. I have to admit, this is the first time I have seen someone bring up eso lore as reason to maintain the status quo. I am not sure what storm lords, pit demons and hufflepuff have to do with the lore of crazy king and chaosball, unfortunately, and I will have to concede to your thoughts on this one, as I am not really as interested in the lore of eso, as I am the combat mechanics.

gariondavey · October 2022

I think one thing that people on here haven't connected the dots with is that during the capture the relic weekend, a lot of the games would end in 5 minutes or less.
If you are normally in queue for 10 or 15 minutes, that is oddly enough the same amount of time as games normally last.
So queues popping faster during the ctr weekend isn't necessarily indication of more people playing bgs (the may have been, I'm not denying that. More ap is more ap). It is more likely due to games lasting a couple of minutes.

OBJnoob · October 2022

I brought up the lore as an allusion to the idea that battlegrounds would be made better if there weren't 3 teams but only 2. I'm surprised that went over your head since you stay so up to date on topics like this.

I didn't respond to your post because it was kinda the last straw for me, to be called self aggrandizing, and so I didn't really read your post.

No reason to, since I decided to bow out of the conversation. What you saw was my last argument put forth for whoever else is reading. It wasn't meant to be a response to you.

So I'm gonna return to not taking part in this discussion please don't tag or quote me I have trouble refraining, lol.

Edited to remove quotes. I had botched it beyond repair lol

jtm1018 · October 2022

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Pit Daemons speed run the relic while Storm Lords attack Fire Drakes 4v4.

15 minute queue, 2 minutes of gameplay.

This is exactly what I love about bg.

When both enemy team just wants a deathmatch.

You win the bg match, they win because they played whatever the hell they want. Win/win.

Aggrovious · November 2022

I am shocked no one is actually calling out capture the relic as a poor match mode.

PVP will not receive any more love and honestly, they should have left BG to deathmatch only when its 3 teams (STUPID)

xFocused · November 2022

Objective based game modes hardly ever work in games because people are always going to want to get kills instead. Look at Call of Duty for example, objective is hardly ever played because kills are what is important to everyone. BG's would be fine if they made it deathmatch only and got rid of the 3 team system. Make it two teams of 4-6 players and I'm sure it would improve quite a bit

CameraBeardThePirate · November 2022

xFocused wrote: »

Objective based game modes hardly ever work in games because people are always going to want to get kills instead. Look at Call of Duty for example, objective is hardly ever played because kills are what is important to everyone. BG's would be fine if they made it deathmatch only and got rid of the 3 team system. Make it two teams of 4-6 players and I'm sure it would improve quite a bit

Saying that objective games hardly ever work is just false; there's a multitude of games where objectives are hugely successful. They just have to be done right. Overwatch, R6, TF2, Counterstrike, Valorant, For Honor, Halo, Destiny 2, the list can go on for a while. Objective based PvP has been around for as long as PvP games have been around. The problem is ESO implements it poorly.

Dem_kitkats1 · November 2022

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Objective based game modes hardly ever work in games because people are always going to want to get kills instead. Look at Call of Duty for example, objective is hardly ever played because kills are what is important to everyone. BG's would be fine if they made it deathmatch only and got rid of the 3 team system. Make it two teams of 4-6 players and I'm sure it would improve quite a bit

Saying that objective games hardly ever work is just false; there's a multitude of games where objectives are hugely successful. They just have to be done right. Overwatch, R6, TF2, Counterstrike, Valorant, For Honor, Halo, Destiny 2, the list can go on for a while. Objective based PvP has been around for as long as PvP games have been around. The problem is ESO implements it poorly.

Absolutely objective games can be very successful, when designed properly. I also think that for battle royale games, balance becomes even more significant. Most battle royal games are designed to encourage tactical thinking in terms of team composition, counterplay, kill or be killed. Gear and skills are also standardized to ensure an equal playing field. ESO is not designed that way, as the emphasis is placed on mainly survival, and class balance is very questionable. DM is all well and good, until teams with the most healing and mitigation are still dominating, because there's very little viable counterplay to that currently.