Please consider adding trial dummy buffs for dwarven dummies.

PapaTankers · November 2022

The current trial dummy (iron astronach) is used as a measuring stick for most endgame groups.

I feel like a problem arises when it is strictly behind a pretty big paywall. Many guildmasters feel like they need to make this investment in order to provide the guild with basic nessecities.

Please add the same buffs to dwarven trial dummies to make it more acessible for everyone.

Treeshka · November 2022

I am afraid this would not happen because due to Crown Store only item. If that happens many that already bought this item will be mad and it will not be a good move for them.

dsalter · November 2022

Treeshka wrote: »

I am afraid this would not happen because due to Crown Store only item. If that happens many that already bought this item will be mad and it will not be a good move for them.

if the superior item is locked behind a paywall with zero ways to get an equal or better version via gameplay this goes against their own policy of Pay 2 win items being in the game.

how would it be pay to win?
because it gives whoever has it a better way to measure how well their build does compared to non-purchased version giving them a paid advantage.

to those people who would get med because they lost their paid advantage?

copium, your pay to win advantage isn't a right.

blue_peaceful_Manticore · November 2022

PapaTankers wrote: »

The current trial dummy (iron astronach) is used as a measuring stick for most endgame groups.

I feel like a problem arises when it is strictly behind a pretty big paywall. Many guildmasters feel like they need to make this investment in order to provide the guild with basic nessecities.

Please add the same buffs to dwarven trial dummies to make it more acessible for everyone.

Or maybe, we can buy buffs from CrownStore to add\link them to any dummy.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2022

Personally I'd be absolutely fine if this happened even though I have a dummy (got it with my sub crowns) but I don't see it happening. It's too much of a seller for the crown store. Anyone who raids seriously has one. All guild halls that run raids are expected to have one as well. That's $$$.

SPR_of_HA_community · November 2022

It is different dummy. If they do ot you will not have option to check your groups buffs uptimes

Troodon80 · November 2022

dsalter wrote: »

how would it be pay to win?
because it gives whoever has it a better way to measure how well their build does compared to non-purchased version giving them a paid advantage.

Except target skeletons have been used since the dawn of ESO to measure DPS before the trial atronach came to be. People can still use that as a metric of comparison, even if people argue it to be the lesser method. If it's a comparison between raid dummy vs. non-raid dummy, you can basically halve the raid dummy parse to see what they would get under the same circumstances. Making you do a little bit of mathematics isn't pay to win. It's also not pay to win as there's nothing to "win," you're not winning more DPS, and raid atronach doesn't make you a better player or give you the sets needed or perform the perfect rotation, and you can always use someone elses' anyway.

The older centurion dummies were, as far as I am aware and have always used as such, to be used as actual raid dummies where you would get your full raid group together before doing whatever the content was in order to measure uptimes and DPS in a static environment under the condition of a specific composition. This allows raid leaders to see where disparities are between individual members. This is, in reality, a much better metric and measurement of people's uptimes and DPS under a specific raid composition than the raid atronach is, since getting 100% uptime on various things simply isn't feasible or even possible in some cases, and allows the individuals to see where their DPS is while using various support sets such as Z'en, Martial Knowledge, Spaulder, etc. For example, you should always be expecting those on support sets to be doing less DPS, so if that's not the case you can see where improvements need to be made immediately. (The caveat is that it's still not a live environment with something dealing damage to you.)

I would personally prefer them to leave the centurions alone as they have a specific use case. While still not as optimal as actually going into content, I know at least a few guilds/groups who use it. If ZOS were going to do something which adds buffs to a dummy that you an obtain with in-game currency, it would be better for it to be a brand new dummy and not repurposing an existing one which has a use, even if you want to argue it's a niché.

definitelygee · November 2022

dsalter wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

I am afraid this would not happen because due to Crown Store only item. If that happens many that already bought this item will be mad and it will not be a good move for them.

if the superior item is locked behind a paywall with zero ways to get an equal or better version via gameplay this goes against their own policy of Pay 2 win items being in the game.

how would it be pay to win?
because it gives whoever has it a better way to measure how well their build does compared to non-purchased version giving them a paid advantage.

to those people who would get med because they lost their paid advantage?

copium, your pay to win advantage isn't a right.

you can gauge your performance in raid or a dungeon and not only on a trial dummy. to those people who cant afford the convenience of a trial dummy, copium. find other ways.

perfiction · November 2022

As long as trial dummy is clown store exclusive it won't happen, ZOS loves their dollars.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2022

Troodon80 wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

how would it be pay to win?
because it gives whoever has it a better way to measure how well their build does compared to non-purchased version giving them a paid advantage.

Except target skeletons have been used since the dawn of ESO to measure DPS before the trial atronach came to be. People can still use that as a metric of comparison, even if people argue it to be the lesser method. If it's a comparison between raid dummy vs. non-raid dummy, you can basically halve the raid dummy parse to see what they would get under the same circumstances. Making you do a little bit of mathematics isn't pay to win. It's also not pay to win as there's nothing to "win," you're not winning more DPS, and raid atronach doesn't make you a better player or give you the sets needed or perform the perfect rotation, and you can always use someone elses' anyway.

The older centurion dummies were, as far as I am aware and have always used as such, to be used as actual raid dummies where you would get your full raid group together before doing whatever the content was in order to measure uptimes and DPS in a static environment under the condition of a specific composition. This allows raid leaders to see where disparities are between individual members. This is, in reality, a much better metric and measurement of people's uptimes and DPS under a specific raid composition than the raid atronach is, since getting 100% uptime on various things simply isn't feasible or even possible in some cases, and allows the individuals to see where their DPS is while using various support sets such as Z'en, Martial Knowledge, Spaulder, etc. For example, you should always be expecting those on support sets to be doing less DPS, so if that's not the case you can see where improvements need to be made immediately. (The caveat is that it's still not a live environment with something dealing damage to you.)

I would personally prefer them to leave the centurions alone as they have a specific use case. While still not as optimal as actually going into content, I know at least a few guilds/groups who use it. If ZOS were going to do something which adds buffs to a dummy that you an obtain with in-game currency, it would be better for it to be a brand new dummy and not repurposing an existing one which has a use, even if you want to argue it's a niché.

If you want to raid seriously though you will likely have an optimized group. All mine run zen dk and ec crow for example so they want to see the max you can hit because our uptimes are very high. They wouldn't accept a 6m parse because it's also about sustain.

rauyran · November 2022

They could add buffs that simulate a 4 person group

Troodon80 · November 2022

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If you want to raid seriously though you will likely have an optimized group. All mine run zen dk and ec crow for example so they want to see the max you can hit because our uptimes are very high. They wouldn't accept a 6m parse because it's also about sustain.

Precisely my point, in that having a raid dummy with 100% uptime on various other debuffs (e.g. EC) still isn't indicitive to individual performance, so having the option to use a dummy where your entire raid group attends is a good indicator for group DPS and overall uptimes and where improvements can be made. Obviously, like I said, the best indicator is to simply do content, but some groups want to test people out before making a commitment to bring them into content; if your uptimes are bad on a dummy, they're only going to be worse in content when you factor in mechanics. "Most" groups don't use the dwemer centurions, they're a thing of the past, but I do know a number of groups who do still use it. That means a new dummy would be preferable over repurposing an old one.

Necrotech_Master · November 2022

when you said dwarven dummies i thought you were talking about the precursor and was like "why?"

then i realized the centurion dummies existed

as to the topic at hand, i generally prefer testing my builds against world bosses, and check my combat metrics after boss fights in dungeons if i want to see my dps and analyze it

boi_anachronism_ · November 2022

Troodon80 wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

If you want to raid seriously though you will likely have an optimized group. All mine run zen dk and ec crow for example so they want to see the max you can hit because our uptimes are very high. They wouldn't accept a 6m parse because it's also about sustain.

Precisely my point, in that having a raid dummy with 100% uptime on various other debuffs (e.g. EC) still isn't indicitive to individual performance, so having the option to use a dummy where your entire raid group attends is a good indicator for group DPS and overall uptimes and where improvements can be made. Obviously, like I said, the best indicator is to simply do content, but some groups want to test people out before making a commitment to bring them into content; if your uptimes are bad on a dummy, they're only going to be worse in content when you factor in mechanics. "Most" groups don't use the dwemer centurions, they're a thing of the past, but I do know a number of groups who do still use it. That means a new dummy would be preferable over repurposing an old one.

That I can agree with. Just give us a new one. Maybe make it through scrying or whatever if they REALLY want to do the "let's make this difficult to get so people will buy them anyway" bs but that would at least give people some kind of option in game but frankly I'd rather it be more accessible so new raiders wouldn't have to make a huge commitment if they just want to get in some practice.

Ragnarok0130 · November 2022

Treeshka wrote: »

I am afraid this would not happen because due to Crown Store only item. If that happens many that already bought this item will be mad and it will not be a good move for them.

No the only people who would be mad in that scenario are the corporate bean counters at ZoS since players could get the trial dummy with writ vouchers instead of paying the exorbitant crown store prices.