Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i personally feel like wardens just need a better spammable

the bird just feels way too slow as is, fetchers are only so so due to the dot nerfs

deep fissure/subterannean assault just feels terrible now, i used use this skill as kind of a "heavy attack weave" style build (launch deep fissure and then charge heavy attack so they would hit somewhat close together, rinse and repeat as the spammable rotation), but with the added 6 sec delay for the bigger dmg after the already 3 sec delay, it just feels way to slow now, and if you recast it every 3 sec that is inefficient (not to mention heavy attack dmg being nerfed too)

so im still kind of got this toon on the backburner until i can figure out a better way to handle his rotation

also, for no reason whatsoever, when your last paragraph mentioned "polar bear doing polar bear things" the first thing that came to my head was when it was idle, it sits back and drinks an ice cold coca-cola lol

I still think that having a morph be Melee focused and one be ranged, faster like my concept conveys would be a great move forward

I think Frost needs to be reined in.

Too much effort to make a tank element work for damage is a big issue.

Frost is not for dps, it's for tanking. The more you try and bend frost away from tanking, the more tanks will suffer. Hell it makes Wardens suffer trying to force the square frost damage peg into a round hole.

The point about Warden spammable is a definite key issue here:
Templar Jabs - 14k
Rapid Strikes - 13k
Other Spammables - 9.5-10.5k
Dive - 8.5k with some fluff. Cutting dive, even if the bleed is up 100% of the time, still pales in comparison to other spammables (like Surprise Attack).

If the frost damage is left as a supplementary system, as you find with disease damage for Nightblades or fire damage for Necromancers, Wardens could be in a much better shape by fixing the abilities.

Dive - Up the damage 15%
Cutting Dive - Convert to bleed damage. Grant it a 10% bonus versus haemorraging opponents.
Screaming Cliff Racer - Convert to ice damage (so the op stops asking for it every single week). Have it deal up to 100% more to targets below 50% health. A simple balance for Magdens against Stamdens.

Scorch - Baseline 3/3. There's really no reason not to.
Sub Assault - Guaranteed Poison application might be an idea to ensure there's a reason it's the only poison ability the class has when it's really a class devoted to bleed (literally if you had this as a bleed effect you'd be able to hit 80% total damage being bleed)
Deep Fissure - Would be fine since it'd be 3/3.

Impaling Shards - Is fine as it is.
Gripping Shards - Is fine as it is tbh.
Winter's Respite - Up the baseline to match the 'with a frost staff equipped'. It's just nonsense forcing a tank weapon into a dps slot. Leave it as optional

Piercing Cold Passive - Have it grant a 5/10% crit buff after applying chilled for 10 seconds.

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Before I get into this, I completely understand that some people dislike Frost Warden, that being said, I honestly don't care, these ideas are mostly just for fun and although I would love to see these changes in game, I HIGHLY doubt it will ever happen. So enjoy, don't think about the amount of time that I wasted doing this and have a great day:

With Update 36 Warden has done a very interesting shift, the Magic/Frost Damage passives are gone, but Warden is definitely more Frost focused than ever with the Glacial Presence passive and stapling Frost Staff to their faces. One of the large issues that Frost Warden will still face is a lack of core frost abilities in it's kit. I think with the removal of magic damage bonus in general the changing of damage types on abilities is much more of a moot point now, so here are some of our ideas:



General Shalks changes: All Shalks morphs have the 3/3 timing similar to current Sub Assault, as well as have Major Breach connected to them.
Glacial Fissure: Now leaves a persistent Ice Ground effect for 6 seconds instead of applying Minor Breach, this will allow for some area denial and make the Deep Fissure Morph a little less overwhelming for people. And of course does frost damage.



Rime Racer: Instead of swooping down, the Cliff Racer is conjured directly in front of the caster and speeds toward the target dealing frost damage, compared to the current rendition, this attack is considerably faster but deals reduced damage compared to the current ability, as the current ability deals more because of the delay.



Frost Flies: Instead of the dual casting feature we currently have, the Idea is that whenever a Chilled proc activates, the 60% damage activates for 5s with a 6s cd. Also deals frost damage of course.



Glacial Guardian: Polar bear doin' polar bear things. Purely by this doing frost damage, and getting chilled procs constantly, it will get closer to the Bleed Bear. Not exactly sure if it needs more, but I'm always open to suggestions.

Also as a side note, Bear is always been a necessary evil for Frost and while this bear change would just continue that, I do think that there should be something done to Northern Storm to make it more viable in PvE vs Bear. I think that you have to be very careful when buffing it because it is strong in PvP especially with the upcoming changes, maybe make a buff that is only active when fighting monsters or something. but some things to consider.

Tell me your thoughts, do you want even more frost or was Warden just a mistake in the first place?

i think this is great!

ive always said they need to figure out what they want from warden. i dont mind if its a frost mage and then they add a druid or make all the frost skills druid themed and add a frost mage.

just has always felt kinda clunky having 2 different classes shoved into 1 class

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

The ice staff is rather a poor frost mage weapon and also a rather poor tank weapon.

That is incorrect. Frost staves are a meta backbar tank weapon because Wall of Elements can be used to apply a Crusher enchantment. Only Bow has a weapon area of effect skill that can carry an enchantment, and it has no tanking passives.

Frankly, it would be incredibly foolish to introduce a new tanking weapon. It would require tanks to farm a new tanking weapon for every single tanking set in the game.

***

I am going to clear up some misconceptions regarding Dive and its morphs. Firstly, with regard to damage, it deals normal 28-meter range spammable damage (identical to Swallow Soul, Ricochet/Venom Skull, and Elemental Weapon). It does not deal more damage due to its travel time. Its travel time is inconsequential outside of PvP--due to the global cooldown, it's impossible to cast the ability fast enough to lose damage. In other words, it deals normal ranged spammable damage within the global cooldown, it's merely a question of where the damage occurs within the cooldown.

I do not find the skill "clunky." I have spoken with other players who do not find it clunky. You just need to learn its rhythm, like any spammable.

If you want a spammable that feels like Force Pulse, you can just use Force Pulse.

***

With regard to other changes, I do not want Wardens' druid flavor subsumed by cyromancer--particularly given that it is likely that at some point we will receive a "proper" cyromancer class.

I like frost Deep Fissure and a polar bear morph of Feral Guardian; otherwise, I would not alter the rest of the Animal Companions skills.

Deep Fissure was likely altered in Update 35 to reduce PvP stamina Wardens' burst potential after hybridization allowed them to use Deep Fissure at full power--they could spend an off resource to inflict Major and Minor Breach and it did more damage than Subterranean Assault due to Glacial Presence.

I would alter Deep Fissure into 3-second-cadence delayed burst skill that applies an Engulfing Flames-like effect for frost damage, which would naturally limit its effect on PvP by limiting how many frost damage skills Warden has access to.

I would alter Eternal Guardian into Polar Guardian; it would deal frost damage and inflict Chilled as Savage Guardian inflicts Hemorrhaging. However, it would no longer have increased execute scaling and would not automatically respawn after death. The power of such a morph would need to be monitored given that Wardens now deal increased Chilled damage. Ideally, it would be weaker than Savage Guardian unless you are using frost-focused sets like Frostbite, in which case it would be the clear choice.

I would also change Northern Storm to an area-targeted skill that inflicts Major Brittle rather than provides Major Protection.

Changing all the class animations to ice-themed ones would be a problem for all the people playing Warden for the nature/druid aesthetic.
These look cool but, as you say, not everyone would want the change.
I personally would not mind it, as I enjoy the playstyle of Magden a lot and would definitely enjoy more Ice spells.

Honestly, if it were up to me and in my power to do so;
1. Decouple ice magic from warden, it is weird and out of place.
2. Get rid of the tanking aspect to ice staff.
3. Make a new, frost themed class that fully delves into ice magic.
4. Make alteration staff a new weapon for tanks.

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

PrinceShroob wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

The ice staff is rather a poor frost mage weapon and also a rather poor tank weapon.

That is incorrect. Frost staves are a meta backbar tank weapon because Wall of Elements can be used to apply a Crusher enchantment. Only Bow has a weapon area of effect skill that can carry an enchantment, and it has no tanking passives.

Frankly, it would be incredibly foolish to introduce a new tanking weapon. It would require tanks to farm a new tanking weapon for every single tanking set in the game.

***

I am going to clear up some misconceptions regarding Dive and its morphs. Firstly, with regard to damage, it deals normal 28-meter range spammable damage (identical to Swallow Soul, Ricochet/Venom Skull, and Elemental Weapon). It does not deal more damage due to its travel time. Its travel time is inconsequential outside of PvP--due to the global cooldown, it's impossible to cast the ability fast enough to lose damage. In other words, it deals normal ranged spammable damage within the global cooldown, it's merely a question of where the damage occurs within the cooldown.

I do not find the skill "clunky." I have spoken with other players who do not find it clunky. You just need to learn its rhythm, like any spammable.

If you want a spammable that feels like Force Pulse, you can just use Force Pulse.

***

With regard to other changes, I do not want Wardens' druid flavor subsumed by cyromancer--particularly given that it is likely that at some point we will receive a "proper" cyromancer class.

I like frost Deep Fissure and a polar bear morph of Feral Guardian; otherwise, I would not alter the rest of the Animal Companions skills.

Deep Fissure was likely altered in Update 35 to reduce PvP stamina Wardens' burst potential after hybridization allowed them to use Deep Fissure at full power--they could spend an off resource to inflict Major and Minor Breach and it did more damage than Subterranean Assault due to Glacial Presence.

I would alter Deep Fissure into 3-second-cadence delayed burst skill that applies an Engulfing Flames-like effect for frost damage, which would naturally limit its effect on PvP by limiting how many frost damage skills Warden has access to.

I would alter Eternal Guardian into Polar Guardian; it would deal frost damage and inflict Chilled as Savage Guardian inflicts Hemorrhaging. However, it would no longer have increased execute scaling and would not automatically respawn after death. The power of such a morph would need to be monitored given that Wardens now deal increased Chilled damage. Ideally, it would be weaker than Savage Guardian unless you are using frost-focused sets like Frostbite, in which case it would be the clear choice.

I would also change Northern Storm to an area-targeted skill that inflicts Major Brittle rather than provides Major Protection.

I agree with this post somewhat. They make a solid point about ice staff and it’s something you have to keep in mind when it comes to making changes for pvp. The pve players are more in number and therefore more important, if you wanna make changes you have to do it without altering the power of the class in pve. Unfortunately the pve meta has nothing to do with fun or interesting dps, it’s a set rotation for the highest damage.

Deep fissure is just a straight up better version of sub assault and there is no reason to run the stam morph in any situation. This is the inherent problem with making everything hybrid, we’ve now created a situation where every class is required to play hybrid Bcs the morphs do not share equal power.

But I do think that both sides of this are right in some manner. Warden remaining half Druid half ice is fine and it seems people like that. Personally I think it makes no sense. I think they should make all the ice skills Druid themed or all the Druid skills ice themed and then add a class for whichever one they decide to remove.

I love the whole dual Druid and Icy magic since I love those 2 kinds of magic so I like it what it is now but I wish there was more Nature based skills than just 3 skills and a ultimate for damage dealing. There are enough skills from frost thanks to the frost staff and winter embrace. I would want to see the netch’s effects being moved else where and Falcon’s swiftness as well and replace them with more Nature based offense skills instead

@PrinceShroob I maintain frost staff is a rather poor damage weapon and a rather poor tank weapon. The poor damage seems well established compared to fire and shock. Regarding it's tanking abilities, meta backup weapon is not good enough. I'm comparing it to a good tanking weapons (S&B), not a back bar second choice. Where's the major and minor breach? I'd love to see a tank specific staff for mag tanks that included major and minor breach, a pull, taunt on heavy attack. Only the crowd control of the ice staff is marginally acceptable.

Again, I assert that the ice staff currently is mediocre for tanks and dds and, again urge going all in for damage with ice staff and creating a new specialized tank staff type devoted to tanks (like resto = healer).

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Before I get into this, I completely understand that some people dislike Frost Warden, that being said, I honestly don't care, these ideas are mostly just for fun and although I would love to see these changes in game, I HIGHLY doubt it will ever happen. So enjoy, don't think about the amount of time that I wasted doing this and have a great day:

With Update 36 Warden has done a very interesting shift, the Magic/Frost Damage passives are gone, but Warden is definitely more Frost focused than ever with the Glacial Presence passive and stapling Frost Staff to their faces. One of the large issues that Frost Warden will still face is a lack of core frost abilities in it's kit. I think with the removal of magic damage bonus in general the changing of damage types on abilities is much more of a moot point now, so here are some of our ideas:



General Shalks changes: All Shalks morphs have the 3/3 timing similar to current Sub Assault, as well as have Major Breach connected to them.
Glacial Fissure: Now leaves a persistent Ice Ground effect for 6 seconds instead of applying Minor Breach, this will allow for some area denial and make the Deep Fissure Morph a little less overwhelming for people. And of course does frost damage.



Rime Racer: Instead of swooping down, the Cliff Racer is conjured directly in front of the caster and speeds toward the target dealing frost damage, compared to the current rendition, this attack is considerably faster but deals reduced damage compared to the current ability, as the current ability deals more because of the delay.



Frost Flies: Instead of the dual casting feature we currently have, the Idea is that whenever a Chilled proc activates, the 60% damage activates for 5s with a 6s cd. Also deals frost damage of course.



Glacial Guardian: Polar bear doin' polar bear things. Purely by this doing frost damage, and getting chilled procs constantly, it will get closer to the Bleed Bear. Not exactly sure if it needs more, but I'm always open to suggestions.

Also as a side note, Bear is always been a necessary evil for Frost and while this bear change would just continue that, I do think that there should be something done to Northern Storm to make it more viable in PvE vs Bear. I think that you have to be very careful when buffing it because it is strong in PvP especially with the upcoming changes, maybe make a buff that is only active when fighting monsters or something. but some things to consider.

Tell me your thoughts, do you want even more frost or was Warden just a mistake in the first place?

As a Warden main, I love these ideas! It's great to see the community getting involved with the development.

I agree with all other users that Deep Fissure should sync with Sub Assault 3/3 - after making a Stamden, the Deep Fissure feels a ittle strange 3/6. Regarding the Shalks though, I do like the current Green/Blue theme to distinguish between the different morphs so whilst the animation looks great, I think it might be a little confusing. The Polar Bear should be an unlockable as a skin though and Cliff Racer should be sped up!

I think there's some misunderstanding on these skills and the Ideas I presented. People assume that changing the Damage Type will remove the "Druid" aspect, it really wouldn't.

The skills in-game would largely remain the same visually, with some tweaks. You're still casting Blue Effects, Animals are getting conjured. The only real difference is the Damage Type.

There are some other tweaks like Cliff Racer being faster, which is a very common gripe that 90% of the people that I talk to agree with.
Shalks leaving a ground effect would be a change of course, but thematically it's the same.
Eternal Guardian is essentially dead because of Bleed Bear, having it deal Frost as a Polar Bear would not change its function or suddenly make it better than Bleed Bear.

Anyways, just some thoughts after letting this post simmer for a bit.

You still get the Druid Feel, if you want that, the damage type just changes to help unify the damage across the class.