I won’t pretend it’s not a thing but I haven’t actually seen this much recently… and I’ve had some very painful pugs. I don’t know what ZOS can do about this but I do think it’s important for people to keep each other in check and try to counteract the issue by calling out people being mean and supporting the newbies. It’s actually surprisingly easy to fall into a negative mindset, I’m not sure everyone realizes they’re being mean when they are.

I've seen complaints about toxic jerks in group play, in every MMO I've played, since vanilla WoW. It's not really something devs can do a huge amount about. Even with 'perfect' balance (which doesn't exist), the toxic types will find something to be toxic about.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I've seen complaints about toxic jerks in group play, in every MMO I've played, since vanilla WoW. It's not really something devs can do a huge amount about. Even with 'perfect' balance (which doesn't exist), the toxic types will find something to be toxic about.

You're all missing the point. There should be checks needed in order to enter certain content, there's a bunch of things they could do, yet they don't. The CP requirement is a joke and only makes things worse.

Shagreth wrote: »

I saw a poor guy get kicked after being mocked for the whole run by the tank & healer and it's not the first time. This happened on the very first day I came back after a break, can't imagine how often it happens, especially nowadays.

And no, before some of you start going crazy, people SHOULD know how to play their class, my beef is with ZoS pretending this is not an issue. You see this in other mmorgp's too, but it's just crazy with ESO.

I would say that there is an unfortunate difference between "playing a class" and "playing a role" (tank/healer/DPS).

This is why there are so many "fake [insert role]" threads. I think it would be more useful to have "how to play [insert role]" threads, but they don't really catch on well, sad to say.

Maybe join or start a guild dedicated to helping players do PvE content. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

I doubt there is a rampant problem with tank gatekeeping and such. Most tanks worth their salt will not bother with random groups via the GF. They have people to run with.

As for low CP issues, that is also likely a minority issue. Besides, I was out DPSing entire random groups at CP160 as the healer when they were high-level CP, and no one was dying. CP does not make the player by any means. Oh, and I was tossing out orbs during that to help with resources.

I am not saying this stuff does not happen, but that it is not extremely common.

Oh, BTW, the best thing people can do is find a good guild to run with and do dungeons with them. It is a superior experience for both the new and veteran players. One is more likely to find people with patience and willingness to help the new plate, and the veteran player will have superior groups to run with compared to the average GF group. Guild groups are also superior for a new player to learn more about the game than anything Zenimax could ever develop.

With that, I would like to see something like what FF14 has to help people learn their role, but it will do nothing to stop the rare occurrences noted in the OP.

jtm1018 wrote: »

Maybe dps is not dpsing enough?

Is there an addon that can see how much damage or dps is being done by a team member or another player?

On PC, there is an addon to see how much of the group's damage you are doing, and via ESO logs we can see what the other group members are doing individually. Even if they are anonymous, one can still figure it out which player is doing what in most situations.

perfiction wrote: »

Is it PvE scene tho? For me it sounds like ZOS fault. Lack of meaningful tutorials combined with dumbed down overland content which you can clear by holding left mouse button. "People SHOULD know how to play their class", but ZOS doesn't even try to teach them.

It's a player problem. The dungeons are suppose to be the progression to harder content. Problem is a new player doesn't have a chance because the more experienced players rush ahead meaning the new player rarely gets to participate. Even when they do the more experience players burn stuff so quick the new players don't even get a chance to see mechanics or work on a rotation.
Guilds help the problem some. Instead of complaining about inexperienced players help them. Come in as a support role and even if you can solo or just quick burn slow down and let them get a feel for how the fight should go. Most problems like this in game are because players are in a hurry.

Amottica wrote: »

While my replies were to the body of the OP, not the title, the title does specifically state that PvE is ruining the game so it is an easy mistake.

Fixed it, somewhat. In any case, there's things ZoS could do to promote the learning of one's class and/or put more restrictions in place, that's for sure and yes, it wouldn't solve the problem fully -- but it would help.

The problem here does not seem to be PvE, but toxic/selfish people. Also expecting players to know what they are doing when queueing for normals is a (pro) player issue as well. Normal dungeons are there to learn group play, to learn their role, to learn the dungeon, to do the dungeon quest. This is an MMO, pro players should be less selfish and understand this. Expecting different is toxic by itself.

When you are a pro or elite player queueing for normals, you have no right to expect all the other players to be top tier players as well. The only thing you can expect is players fulfilling their actual roles(no matter how badly), which a lot of pro players often do NOT do as they often queue for fake roles themselves. The problem is pro players being in a normal dungeon in the first place, when they should have moved on to veteran already. Another problem is the rewards on veteran dungeons should be much higher than those on normal.

Do not try to twist the issue and say players should be good to begin with, as we were all new once. The issue is toxic players expecting things they should not, and getting angry because of it. Not realizing they are their own issue, by queueing for content they should have moved on from already.

PS: ZOS should change the dungeon rewards. Five transmutes for normal, 10 for normal DLC, 20 for veteran, 25 for veteran DLC.

Shagreth wrote: »

And no, before some of you start going crazy, people SHOULD know how to play their class, my beef is with ZoS pretending this is not an issue. You see this in other mmorgp's too, but it's just crazy with ESO.

With overland/quest content being as laughable as it is there is simply no necessity for people to learn their class/role and improve themselves.

Sarannah wrote: »

Do not try to twist the issue and say players should be good to begin with, as we were all new once. The issue is toxic players expecting things they should not, and getting angry because of it. Not realizing they are their own issue, by queueing for content they should have moved on from already.

PS: ZOS should change the dungeon rewards. Five transmutes for normal, 10 for normal DLC, 20 for veteran, 25 for veteran DLC.

Why are you trying to push buttons, saying I'm twisting things when you are the one that does it?

Players have a responsibility as well, but how can players better themselves when there are no proper tools at place and the path is twisted? It's simply not encouraged by ZoS in any capacity, that's why we're seeing cp 1500 people that barely pull 10k. What you're saying is not necessarily wrong, but it's pure hyperbole to say it's only a toxic people issue and that we should all just love each other.

And yeah, dungeon rewards suck ass, this game's focus when it comes to rewards, at least for the most part, is the next cool thing on the crown store and Pacrooti congratulating you while clapping when you get a duplicate for gems.

Shagreth wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Do not try to twist the issue and say players should be good to begin with, as we were all new once. The issue is toxic players expecting things they should not, and getting angry because of it. Not realizing they are their own issue, by queueing for content they should have moved on from already.

PS: ZOS should change the dungeon rewards. Five transmutes for normal, 10 for normal DLC, 20 for veteran, 25 for veteran DLC.

Why are you trying to push buttons, saying I'm twisting things when you are the one that does it?

Players have a responsibility as well, but how can players better themselves when there are no proper tools at place and the path is twisted? It's simply not encouraged by ZoS in any capacity, that's why we're seeing cp 1500 people that barely pull 10k. What you're saying is not necessarily wrong, but it's pure hyperbole to say it's only a toxic people issue and that we should all just love each other.

And yeah, dungeon rewards suck ass, this game's focus when it comes to rewards, at least for the most part, is the next cool thing on the crown store and Pacrooti congratulating you while clapping when you get a duplicate for gems.

Yes, we should all love eachother! (joking, sort of, we should) But the twisting issues around part wasn't directed at you, but more of an in general, sorry if it seemed otherwise.

I agree with you that players have responsibility as well(my above reply even says so). But the thing is, the way dungeons and roles are designed, they are being heavily abused. And new players/bad players are both the victims and result of that. How can someone learn their role if every random they queue for, someone speedruns through without killing anything or without having a proper tank/healer or without a proper dungeonrun-structure?!

And the tools are there, ZOS implemented them. We queue as specific roles, but this is abused by toxic players. Normal dungeons are this easy so new players can get the hang of the game, yet toxic players ruin this experience.

So yes, I feel the main issue is toxic players. If every pro player queue'd for veteran(or ran normals as they are supposed to be run), the normal dungeon experience would become more of a teaching experience instead of a speedrun. If noone abused the role system, the game would be 99% better for everyone and more players would be capable of doing much more DPS. Almost all of the issues in normal dungeons and with low dps players are caused by toxic players.

PS: I'm well over 2k CP and barely do 25k DPS as a dps player.
PPS: With toxic players I mean not only the rude/aggressive players, but also those abusing the in-place systems to get to the rewards faster.

And yeah, dungeon rewards suck ass, this game's focus when it comes to rewards, at least for the most part, is the next cool thing on the crown store and Pacrooti congratulating you while clapping when you get a duplicate for gems.

I can 1000% agree with that.

But back to the original point of this post. You say we see this in other MMOs as well, but imply it’s worse in ESO.

Gotta disagree with that. The amount of jerks, elitists, and gatekeepers I come across in ESO compared to other MMOs is practically non-existent. But those people existing in an MMO is a certainty.
Compared to how many jerks I notice out in public in real life, ESO is a haven of kindness.

In my experience, if someone is sucking in a group activity, players are more likely to just drop group or silently kick sucky player rather than get toxic. And good for them. We have zero obligation to teach the random player that joined a group activity they weren’t prepared for.

If someone is unsure of their ability or whatever the issue is, they need to figure something out for themselves. Read some online guides, have discussions in a guild, make some friends.

And when does ZOS pretend it’s not an issue? What are they supposed to do about it??? If the toxic players don’t get reported, there’s nothing ZOS can do.
What in the world do you expect from ZOS when it comes to rude players?

JKorr wrote: »

So, your solution would be for ZOS to warn, temp ban, and then outright ban the elitist *** who make it a habit to harass other players, new or old. Interesting. Not sure how ZOS would manage to make the elite overlords be civil and polite to the not-elite [in their eyes] scrub peasants, because internet/keyboard warrior/anonymity. If they ever did attempt to enforce polite behavior, there would be a flood of outraged posts about free speech and stuff. It might be beneficial to popcorn sales for forum readers, but not much would actually be improved in the game.

RIGHT! [snip] is ZOS to do? Jerks are just a fact of life, just like players who suck at the game. How the heck is ZOS going to make everyone be polite? Impossible.

[edited for profanity bypass]