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The Relationship Between Class and World Skills

Ksariyu
Ksariyu
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Typically in RPG-style games, classes provide a core foundation of skills and passives to give each a distinct playstyle with unique utility. In ESO however, the devs attempted to bridge the gap between the normal class system seen in most games and the classless or class-loose systems from the other Elder Scrolls games. The result has given us something where classes are more or less backdrops for the rest of our character's skills, with each class usually getting a single defining feature and not much else. Currently, we're seeing most meta builds run on average 4-5 class skills out of 12 total, which is honestly kind of sad when each class comes with 18 active skills to choose from. The community has brought this up several times, and the devs have noticed and started making changes; class spammables in particular have been highlighted as a major point where class identity falls short, as many weapon spammables - mainly Force Pulse and Rapid Strikes - were just statistically better than the class alternative. These changes shine a light on the dynamic between class abilities and those accessible to anyone, and it makes me question exactly what the relationship between these two should look like.

There are of a lot of considerations in balancing the two categories. For the most part, the community seems to view class skills as the main pillar for each build, with world skills being used to fill in for certain weaknesses within a class's kit, or to allow a class to perform a role it isn't regularly suited for. Unfortunately, we've seen how this theory plays out in practice, and the result has been that world skills define how a character plays and what role it performs, and only a few key class skills are used for their unique impact. This affects all roles fairly equally, though Dragonknights and Nightblades in particular have seen some recent changes that made their kits a bit more attractive for the DPS role. Other classes however, especially in the healer and tank roles, see most of their kit thrown out in favor of the more generally useful world skills.

This trend is caused by several factors; certain world skills being overpowered, class skills being underpowered, classes lacking synergy within their own skills (We are thankfully starting to see some improvements here), classes lacking unique and meaningful utility (The most impactful effects in the game come from world skills or item sets), as well as an ever-expanding list of required tools for each role that limits their choices in making builds. However, before those even begin to be addressed, I think it's important to determine exactly where we would like to end up in regards to this balance. If they were to make world skills truly the "filler" options to allow classes to flex to off-roles, then we lose the flexibility of the current skill system as the choice between good performance and meh performance leaves you with no real choice at all. If they maintain with having world skills and sets define a character's main role and performance, we lose class identity and start to see more builds that are just copies of each other. And we've seen the reactions from Warden players recently for if they try to tie classes to specific weapons (No judgment, I get it). So here I am, asking you all what you think is the "ideal" solution to this problem, or if you even see it as a problem at all.
Edited by Psiion on October 10, 2022 1:48AM
  • Treeshka
    Treeshka
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    In this game classes are mostly distinguished based on the buffs or debuffs that can bring on the table.
  • dmnqwk
    dmnqwk
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    The only real issue is that Magicka Warden players wanted to use Frost, a non dps-focused weapon subtype of a dps-focused weapon as a dps-focused weapon with full support.

    Right now I think:
    Dragonknights can be Flame (originally magicka) but not Poison (stamina)
    Sorcerers can be Lightning (magicka) and Physical (stamina)
    Nightblades can be Magic (magicka) but not Disease (stamina)
    Templars can be Magic (magicka) and be Physical (stamina)
    Necromancers cannot be Flame (magicka) nor Disease/Poison (stamina)
    Wardens cannot be Frost (magicka) nor Bleed (stamina)

    For me to believe they can be you'd need at least 65% of your damage output in that type, as well as your spammable, your heavy hitter and your aoe to cover that damage type so you can remain on point. Stamdens are close but since Sub Ass is not Bleed, they are close but not quite.

    So looking at the classes who get to follow their dream of focusing on a damage type:
    Sorcerers and Templars get two damage type builds
    Nightblades and Dragonknights get one
    Wardens and Necromancers get zero.

    For people who want to pick a damage type and lean into it for the fun aspect (having done an oakensoul bleed build even if shalks dont bleed it can be fun to do it) they're out of luck on 2 of the classes and on 6 of the 12 options between both stamina and magicka.

    While ZOS half does things without thinking about it, we'll continue to get this sillyness where Frostden lacks the options to lean into it and we'll get Wardens messed up a lot because ZOS thinks pandering to Frost is required when there are 50% of the damage type themes unusable for builds is a good idea.

    If they give up on this nonsense and admit that Shalks not being bleed and Frost is the major issue it wouldn't require the sillyness of U36 and then focus where it's heavily needed - Necromancers with no damage identity at all - we might see progress!
  • Dr_Con
    Dr_Con
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    We need TLDR versions.

    If you want to see change you need to bring out the problem faster, more objectively and easily digestible, with definitive terms and not "I think." Also, criticizing the devs is not how you get them to read, it's also not a cutthroat environment.


    if you were a dev working on the balance team, which of the following suggestions would you read to the end?

    ex.

    "I think vampire passives should be changed. Devs were on crack when they arbitrarily decided there should be no regen, I think that they should reduce healing from other sources because it would be more lore accurate as vampires at higher stages would be less affected by healing from what we would consider holy spells, and in return their regen should be increased- have you ever seen a vampire who has less regen the more they feed? When blood is what grants them their regenerative abilities..."

    vs

    "We should look into pursuing a different drawback to the vampire feed passive of no/reduced regen at all stages.

    My proposal today would be to instead replace the negating regen with a scaling defile- which would be reduction in healing received from outside sources, while increasing the amount of passive regen.

    These numbers should be brought to PTS, but I recommend changing the feed passive from -10%/-30%/-60%/-100% to health recovery to +10%/+20%/+30%/+50% health recovery, and the healing received to -4%/-12%/-25%/-40% for stages 1/2/3/4"

    same ideas, different presentations.
  • chessalavakia_ESO
    chessalavakia_ESO
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    To me, Class Abilities should be about offering functional options that have some unique flair that players can choose to use or not use in the majority of the games content.

    I think it is generally preferable for the meta builds to be slanting somewhat away from using class skills to keep the complaints from the top from causing more disruptive changes to classes.

    This isn't to say all of the class abilities/world abilities are perfect as they are but, I don't think they should be getting changed just because x or y is meta at the top.

  • Psiion
    Psiion
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    Greetings,

    After review of this thread as it is mainly discussing character and class mechanics, we have gone ahead and moved it to the Combat and Character Mechanics section as it is better fit there.
    Staff Post
  • DrNukenstein
    DrNukenstein
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    The class skill should be ever so slightly better than the generic version in a way that synergizes with the class kit.

    It makes more sense that classes expand their kit with generics instead of graduate out of their kit with generics.

  • Ksariyu
    Ksariyu
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    Treeshka wrote: »
    In this game classes are mostly distinguished based on the buffs or debuffs that can bring on the table.

    If that was actually the case I would be okay with that. As it stands though, classes bring exactly one Minor-tier buff (Or zero in the case of Necros), and they all require a specific skill line to be used. Meanwhile, powerful Major buffs like Force and Courage are only sourced from non-class skills or sets. To me, this seems like a major contributor to the lack of class diversity we're seeing at the top end.
    dmnqwk wrote: »
    Right now I think:
    Dragonknights can be Flame (originally magicka) but not Poison (stamina)
    Sorcerers can be Lightning (magicka) and Physical (stamina)
    Nightblades can be Magic (magicka) but not Disease (stamina)
    Templars can be Magic (magicka) and be Physical (stamina)
    Necromancers cannot be Flame (magicka) nor Disease/Poison (stamina)
    Wardens cannot be Frost (magicka) nor Bleed (stamina)

    For me to believe they can be you'd need at least 65% of your damage output in that type, as well as your spammable, your heavy hitter and your aoe to cover that damage type so you can remain on point. Stamdens are close but since Sub Ass is not Bleed, they are close but not quite.

    So looking at the classes who get to follow their dream of focusing on a damage type:
    Sorcerers and Templars get two damage type builds
    Nightblades and Dragonknights get one
    Wardens and Necromancers get zero.

    I think I get your point but this seems like a slightly different issue. That said, a lot of the imbalance in damage types also comes from the fact that weapons don't usually match up with the class. There are no Disease or Bleed damage weapons, for example, so Nightblades and Wardens will always be out of luck in that regard. Similarly, a Poison build is possible on a Dragonknight with a bow, but the entire DK kit is geared towards melee combat, so it's still a very sub-optimal solution.
    Dr_Con wrote: »
    We need TLDR versions.

    Respectfully, do you have a relevant point?
    I think it is generally preferable for the meta builds to be slanting somewhat away from using class skills to keep the complaints from the top from causing more disruptive changes to classes.

    This is definitely an interesting point I hadn't considered. Personally, I feel there are more benefits to having solid, unique, and powerful class kits, but it's certainly true that this tends to lead to a lot of "This class is OP pls nerf" threads.
    The class skill should be ever so slightly better than the generic version in a way that synergizes with the class kit.

    It makes more sense that classes expand their kit with generics instead of graduate out of their kit with generics.

    I do kind of agree with this, and I think this is the general direction the devs are trying to take things, especially after the NB changes in U35. My question with this though is, at what point do weapon skills then become obsolete? This also ties in with a separate question I had regarding whether class skill lines should be divided by role, similar to how Wardens and Necros kind of were. Without that distinction however, on a base-game class like the Sorcerer, it is possible that you could get 12 skills from your class that are all good for a single role (More likely on DPS of course).


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