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Warden in content even worse then parses suggest - the reasons.
Klingenlied
✭✭✭✭
As the headlines suggest - Wardens right now are really, really bad DPS in real content, way worse then on dummy even.
There is 3 main culprits to it:
#1 Scorch
Whenever the fight is about switching targets and movement, chances are you are going to miss your "massive, dopamine printing burst combo" - or how Gina rather recently commented on the reasons why they changed the mag morph to hit after 3 / 9 seconds. This is a skill that should massively contribute to our dps - missing only a few hits will hurt performance really, really bad.
#2 The Bear
We all love our pet. But! A lot of Warden DPS is tied to the bear. The bear however needs to physically move between targets. He needs be commanded via heavy attack (needn't be fully charged) to switch from say invulnerable or not targetable enemies to ones that can be targeted. He still tends to die in some encounters. Summoning him takes a really, really long time.
#3 "Unnecessary buffs" eating class power budget
Potion buffs? Warden got it. Kinra buff / classic dungeon or raid healer buffs? Already in Warden kit.
One could say: but don't use Warden skills! Ah well, many players already sorted out a lot of skills for specific content because there is no reason to use them. However. It kills class identity. And when stuff you have is inferior to stuff other classes have - you obviously will perform worse.
To give some nice examples: Shipwrights Regret, 2nd boss (hardmode!) He spawns adds where you needa kill 2 swiftly. How to deal good burst damage as a Warden? Well, you needa command your bear to attack. You needa hit your scorch. You should have your buffs running and all ae damage that does work with you as target (arctic blast for example). Now you can even add flies thanks to 5% increased damage taken and you should be fine. However! If you needa recast your buffs / arctic and blade cloak.
However, if your artic and blade cloak just have run out, your scorch just aktivated the second you turned around and did hit nothing, you actually have to hope scorch & spamable are enough. Depending on critluck & gear, that should work out. But just assume you play something "good" that isn"t "perfect" for this kind of encounter? Yea, you can even parse for 100k+ on a dummy. You will not get this add down. And there is hardly any way "around" this unless you want to exchange bear for another ult and safe this for the adds. Oh and steer away from warden spamable. It hits one second delayed. That is also "anti-burst" - without any advantage.
Now on the opposite end of the spectrum, we just take a Nightblade. Very high burst up every 5 seconds. If your pet / shadow isn't up, you just ignore it - if it's a short burst of <10seconds, it isn't worth summoning anyway. So with Nightblade, you just use spamable / grim focus and wait for execute. If you want it ultra-comfy, just safe a deathstroke ult. Not too hard thanks to extra ult gain on potions.
To me as a player, this just feels really wrong. Before the patch (before U35) I didn't need to worry about making sure to have everything ready or even exchange a procset like depths for something ressource minigame set just to make sure I needn't worry about a dps check. I mean I still wear golded out stuff. I still parse freakin high. But on Warden on the new inflated dummy, this feels like it accounts for nothing any longer. The game is screaming at me - play something else!
And of course - I might have been really, really unlucky with my crits. I might have been extremely lucky with my Nightblade. But we did a few runs because we were going for a trifecta for a friend. And after messing up 2 runs myself (have had this trifecta since quiet some time before U35) I was like: [snip] Warden, lets do it with NB. Of course went flawless for me ever after.
Furthermore, I did not type this to say "NB is op!!!" - nope, NB isn't. NB ain't bad this patch and always was very nice in regards to single target damage - and that's fine. It simply is that Warden never was as bad as he is today.
[Edited for Censor Bypass]
Edited by Psiion on September 23, 2022 8:12PM There is 3 main culprits to it:
#1 Scorch
Whenever the fight is about switching targets and movement, chances are you are going to miss your "massive, dopamine printing burst combo" - or how Gina rather recently commented on the reasons why they changed the mag morph to hit after 3 / 9 seconds. This is a skill that should massively contribute to our dps - missing only a few hits will hurt performance really, really bad.
#2 The Bear
We all love our pet. But! A lot of Warden DPS is tied to the bear. The bear however needs to physically move between targets. He needs be commanded via heavy attack (needn't be fully charged) to switch from say invulnerable or not targetable enemies to ones that can be targeted. He still tends to die in some encounters. Summoning him takes a really, really long time.
#3 "Unnecessary buffs" eating class power budget
Potion buffs? Warden got it. Kinra buff / classic dungeon or raid healer buffs? Already in Warden kit.
One could say: but don't use Warden skills! Ah well, many players already sorted out a lot of skills for specific content because there is no reason to use them. However. It kills class identity. And when stuff you have is inferior to stuff other classes have - you obviously will perform worse.
To give some nice examples: Shipwrights Regret, 2nd boss (hardmode!) He spawns adds where you needa kill 2 swiftly. How to deal good burst damage as a Warden? Well, you needa command your bear to attack. You needa hit your scorch. You should have your buffs running and all ae damage that does work with you as target (arctic blast for example). Now you can even add flies thanks to 5% increased damage taken and you should be fine. However! If you needa recast your buffs / arctic and blade cloak.
However, if your artic and blade cloak just have run out, your scorch just aktivated the second you turned around and did hit nothing, you actually have to hope scorch & spamable are enough. Depending on critluck & gear, that should work out. But just assume you play something "good" that isn"t "perfect" for this kind of encounter? Yea, you can even parse for 100k+ on a dummy. You will not get this add down. And there is hardly any way "around" this unless you want to exchange bear for another ult and safe this for the adds. Oh and steer away from warden spamable. It hits one second delayed. That is also "anti-burst" - without any advantage.
Now on the opposite end of the spectrum, we just take a Nightblade. Very high burst up every 5 seconds. If your pet / shadow isn't up, you just ignore it - if it's a short burst of <10seconds, it isn't worth summoning anyway. So with Nightblade, you just use spamable / grim focus and wait for execute. If you want it ultra-comfy, just safe a deathstroke ult. Not too hard thanks to extra ult gain on potions.
To me as a player, this just feels really wrong. Before the patch (before U35) I didn't need to worry about making sure to have everything ready or even exchange a procset like depths for something ressource minigame set just to make sure I needn't worry about a dps check. I mean I still wear golded out stuff. I still parse freakin high. But on Warden on the new inflated dummy, this feels like it accounts for nothing any longer. The game is screaming at me - play something else!
And of course - I might have been really, really unlucky with my crits. I might have been extremely lucky with my Nightblade. But we did a few runs because we were going for a trifecta for a friend. And after messing up 2 runs myself (have had this trifecta since quiet some time before U35) I was like: [snip] Warden, lets do it with NB. Of course went flawless for me ever after.
Furthermore, I did not type this to say "NB is op!!!" - nope, NB isn't. NB ain't bad this patch and always was very nice in regards to single target damage - and that's fine. It simply is that Warden never was as bad as he is today.
[Edited for Censor Bypass]
4
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AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭One of my problems with the magic shalks is I can't easily know when to recast. The skill counts down 3 seconds on the skill bar and that's it. I wish the duration on the skill bar counter was 9 seconds. I really want to cast it after 9 seconds to get the big second burst but I don't want to wait much longer and lose the 10 second debuffs. Waiting to see the second burst on the ground is usually problematic because there is normally so much ice and other effects on the ground from my other skills.Edited by AcadianPaladin on September 23, 2022 8:10PMPC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo3 -
Klingenlied✭✭✭✭Warden is one of the best PvP classes right now. 👀
How far up though? Warden is survivable and has good CC - he struggles with damage output. I absolutely agree that Warden has a lot of power now in Artic Blast - and I'd gladly give it away for not trailing behind 10-20% in maximum achievable dps output. Anyway, when you do die to a Warden, you either aren't really tanky or - well, just got "played". For max bust output, the Warden should be close to you, should stun you while you have taken a hit already (while you can be stunned) before shalks hit - combined with a well timed uppercut. But the amount of damage is .. well yea - other classes do better, everything Warden does is kinda evadeable.
But I guess your problem is more about Warden tankiness? And yea, Warden IS tanky right now.2 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭With respect to Scorch, the u35 patch notes do specifically state that it's designed to be re-cast every 3 seconds if you want to maximize DPS.0 -
Klingenlied✭✭✭✭
Now then give some proof. Explain why. What makes Warden stronger in obviously all aspects than say Dragon Knight or Nightblade.the1andonlyskwex wrote: »With respect to Scorch, the u35 patch notes do specifically state that it's designed to be re-cast every 3 seconds if you want to maximize DPS.
Did you calculate through if this really would be a way to maximize dps? Let me tell you a secret: it is NOT.
Now i will give proof.
in 9 seconds, you cast scorch 3x and spamable 6x or scorch 1x spamable 8x
Unbuffed damage for me right now: 8101 for cutting dive, 10948 for deep fissure first hit, 15205 for 2nd.
Now if we recast all 3 seconds, we got 3x 10948 and add 6x 8101 -> 81459
Now if we cast only once, we add 10949 to 15205 + 8x 8101 -> 90962
That is 9000 damage apart. 1000 dps in 9 seconds. That is huge! If you really believe what ZOS is telling at those days, you likely believe the lies of people reaching new top dps thanks to patch - people that didn't realize the dummy has been buffed up to mask a massive reduction in increasing damage dealt to him by 20%.Edited by Klingenlied on September 24, 2022 3:12PM1 -
ChunkyCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Klingenlied wrote: »Now then give some proof.
Here’s a link to all the warden skills.
https://eso-hub.com/en/skills/warden
You’re welcome. 🤙🏼
1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Klingenlied wrote: »
Now then give some proof. Explain why. What makes Warden stronger in obviously all aspects than say Dragon Knight or Nightblade.the1andonlyskwex wrote: »With respect to Scorch, the u35 patch notes do specifically state that it's designed to be re-cast every 3 seconds if you want to maximize DPS.
Did you calculate through if this really would be a way to maximize dps? Let me tell you a secret: it is NOT.
Now i will give proof.
in 9 seconds, you cast scorch 3x and spamable 6x or scorch 1x spamable 8x
Unbuffed damage for me right now: 8101 for cutting dive, 10948 for deep fissure first hit, 15205 for 2nd.
Now if we recast all 3 seconds, we got 3x 10948 and add 6x 8101 -> 81459
Now if we cast only once, we add 10949 to 15205 + 8x 8101 -> 90962
That is 9000 damage apart. 1000 dps in 9 seconds. That is huge! If you really believe what ZOS is telling at those days, you likely believe the lies of people reaching new top dps thanks to patch - people that didn't realize the dummy has been buffed up to mask a massive reduction in increasing damage dealt to him by 20%.
Yes, exactly this. I reported the same issue when it was on PTS. I'm fine with leaving the option for players to cast every 9-10s for a slower rotation, but recasting every 3 needs to be the superior option, even if only slightly. Telling players they can choose a harder rotation for a damage loss is nonsensical.
My recommendation was to swap the magnitude of the 2 hits. This would have no effect on the damage output of the 9s recast, while the 3s plan would become:
3X 15205 + 6X 8101 = 94221
This is 3259 damage gain over 9s, resulting in 362 dps difference for micromanaging (tootip at least, may be 1-2k in a full totation with buffs). This is a small and appropriate reward for choosing the classic warden 3s rhythm.Edited by WrathOfInnos on September 25, 2022 7:52AM3 -
DigiAngel✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm just starting out a a Warden and wow...I don't even get Scorch (no morph). I've been toe to toe with an enemy to see the beetles show up behind them, thus causing no damage, and 90% of the time I'm done with the battle and THEN the final tick will fire off with nobody there besides me. Unless I'm missing something, this is a terrible skill.3 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Klingenlied wrote: »
Now then give some proof. Explain why. What makes Warden stronger in obviously all aspects than say Dragon Knight or Nightblade.the1andonlyskwex wrote: »With respect to Scorch, the u35 patch notes do specifically state that it's designed to be re-cast every 3 seconds if you want to maximize DPS.
Did you calculate through if this really would be a way to maximize dps? Let me tell you a secret: it is NOT.
Now i will give proof.
in 9 seconds, you cast scorch 3x and spamable 6x or scorch 1x spamable 8x
Unbuffed damage for me right now: 8101 for cutting dive, 10948 for deep fissure first hit, 15205 for 2nd.
Now if we recast all 3 seconds, we got 3x 10948 and add 6x 8101 -> 81459
Now if we cast only once, we add 10949 to 15205 + 8x 8101 -> 90962
That is 9000 damage apart. 1000 dps in 9 seconds. That is huge! If you really believe what ZOS is telling at those days, you likely believe the lies of people reaching new top dps thanks to patch - people that didn't realize the dummy has been buffed up to mask a massive reduction in increasing damage dealt to him by 20%.
Yes, exactly this. I reported the same issue when it was on PTS. I'm fine with leaving the option for players to cast every 9-10s for a slower rotation, but recasting every 3 needs to be the superior option, even if only slightly. Telling players they can choose a harder rotation for a damage loss is nonsensical.
My recommendation was to swap the magnitude of the 2 hits. This would have no effect on the damage output of the 9s recast, while the 3s plan would become:
3X 15205 + 6X 8101 = 94221
This is 3259 damage gain over 9s, resulting in 362 dps difference for micromanaging (tootip at least, may be 1-2k in a full totation with buffs). This is a small and appropriate reward for choosing the classic warden 3s rhythm.
If they are (for whatever reason) obstinate in keeping the clunky 9-second tick then this is absolutely the way to go. Front-loading the damage is better for both PvE and PvP.2 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i really wasnt a fan of scorch to begin with, the 3 sec delay and it firing in the direction you are facing, it was an exacerbation of the problems of some proc sets which did similar (this was only slightly more controllable because you could choose when it fired)
velidreth and flame blossom were pretty good in theory, but because of the 1 sec delay on those procs i ended up having them miss more often than hit anything, and because of that i stopped using them
in combination with that the bird attack also just feels horrendously slow to use, so i dont use that one either
the only reason i use scorch is because it is active for a long time so i can spam something else, but if i was spamming a single target it would be crushing shock probably
i have a mag warden right now, who was almost using unstable wall of frost as a spammable if he needed more dmg
would use the fetcher infection, unstable wall, winter revenge, deep fissure, and arctic blast
nerf 1: arctic blast no longer has the dot
nerf 2: winter revenge dmg
nerf 3: fetcher infection being a sticky dot
nerf 4: deep fissure (granted i was used to this not even having a 2nd proc and sometimes i couldnt always fire it every 3 sec anyway, but still a nerf if recasted early now)plays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »i really wasnt a fan of scorch to begin with, the 3 sec delay and it firing in the direction you are facing, it was an exacerbation of the problems of some proc sets which did similar (this was only slightly more controllable because you could choose when it fired)
velidreth and flame blossom were pretty good in theory, but because of the 1 sec delay on those procs i ended up having them miss more often than hit anything, and because of that i stopped using them
in combination with that the bird attack also just feels horrendously slow to use, so i dont use that one either
the only reason i use scorch is because it is active for a long time so i can spam something else, but if i was spamming a single target it would be crushing shock probably
i have a mag warden right now, who was almost using unstable wall of frost as a spammable if he needed more dmg
would use the fetcher infection, unstable wall, winter revenge, deep fissure, and arctic blast
nerf 1: arctic blast no longer has the dot
nerf 2: winter revenge dmg
nerf 3: fetcher infection being a sticky dot
nerf 4: deep fissure (granted i was used to this not even having a 2nd proc and sometimes i couldnt always fire it every 3 sec anyway, but still a nerf if recasted early now)
Blast's dot is actually better than it's ever been. The wording is just weird because the healing over time was "converted" to damage over time, and the duration was increased, so now that it's 20 seconds, it means that you have to cast it's extreme magicka cost a lot less. That doesn't mean it's an insanely good dot, but it's like *barely* viable on live as a damage skill in pve.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on September 30, 2022 5:37AMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »i really wasnt a fan of scorch to begin with, the 3 sec delay and it firing in the direction you are facing, it was an exacerbation of the problems of some proc sets which did similar (this was only slightly more controllable because you could choose when it fired)
velidreth and flame blossom were pretty good in theory, but because of the 1 sec delay on those procs i ended up having them miss more often than hit anything, and because of that i stopped using them
in combination with that the bird attack also just feels horrendously slow to use, so i dont use that one either
the only reason i use scorch is because it is active for a long time so i can spam something else, but if i was spamming a single target it would be crushing shock probably
i have a mag warden right now, who was almost using unstable wall of frost as a spammable if he needed more dmg
would use the fetcher infection, unstable wall, winter revenge, deep fissure, and arctic blast
nerf 1: arctic blast no longer has the dot
nerf 2: winter revenge dmg
nerf 3: fetcher infection being a sticky dot
nerf 4: deep fissure (granted i was used to this not even having a 2nd proc and sometimes i couldnt always fire it every 3 sec anyway, but still a nerf if recasted early now)
Blast's dot is actually better than it's ever been. The wording is just weird because the healing over time was "converted" to damage over time, and the duration was increased, so now that it's 20 seconds, it means that you have to cast it's extreme magicka cost a lot less. That doesn't mean it's an insanely good dot, but it's like *barely* viable on live as a damage skill in pve.
i think i was mixed up on arctic blast when i wrote that lol, i meant that it no longer had the heal over time component, which i did like
i do agree that the other parts of it are much better now with the dot lasting 20 sec, but because i dont have the heal over time from it, i still feel like i have to recast it early quite a bit to use as a healplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0