Serious DPS drop

llBlack_Heartll · September 2022

Iv been Tanking most of the last 12 months on ESO but decided to give DPS a go after one of the trial groups I was in needed a DD and not a tank. So I made a Hybrid double staff Warden, running VMA Back Bar, Tzogvin’s Front Bar, Rele Body and Velidreth Monster set. It was just a throw together and have fun.
I parsed with it and was hitting 91k.

Today after down loading the patch i gave the same set up a run……
I couldn’t parse over 70k on the new dummy! This patch was meant to make things easier, except made things way worse.
Rotations are now more complicated. Still my back bar consists of my 10s ground dots, so no matter what, I’ll still need to swap to my back bar to re apply.
Instead of a simple rotation and following it, I now need to remember that ever 2nd rotation I need to use my spammable the whole front bar and the next time round mix of applying dots and spammable.

Thank you, great patch.

Klingenlied · September 2022

Pretty much everyone has lost damage. The loss is way closer to 20% and does not correlate to the health changes on bosses.

However!

Especially for magica heavy setups, we can get +20% crit damage constantly and another 10% when we can stick to our team mates. This combined with generally high crit on magica characters translates into way less of an loss for "real" content once you did farm some new gear. Applicable for 4man content only though, will not apply to raids.

Nevertheless: This patch, no matter how I hard I might try to cope with it and find solutions to problems created by ZOS, is the worst for me in terms of combat changes. What they did to Warden is close to unforgiveable. All I see is Templar tears. But just try to play a Warden in PvE those times.

llBlack_Heartll · September 2022

Managed to parse 75k but still that’s rubbish. One of the trails groups I’m in requires an 85k Parse to DD for them.
This patch was meant to make things more accessible. Absolutely not what’s happening here.

jaws343 · September 2022

I am certain my pre U35 build lost damage. Mostly a solo build that can make a few adjustments to be trial ready. So, the solo build part of it has lost damage and likely the trial setup too but I didn't bother checking that.

However, I made a few adjustments to the solo build, including switching over to Oakensoul. And on the 3 and 6M dummy, my parse actually went up by 3K damage in a full solo setup, which includes self heals on the bar and selfish CP. And the rotation is braindead easier. Soloed a few dungeons with it, and some WBs, and it seems even sturdier than my solo build that relied on shields and two bars. And the build isn't even finished yet, as I still need to farm Grave Inevitability.

Elendir2am · September 2022

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Managed to parse 75k but still that’s rubbish. One of the trails groups I’m in requires an 85k Parse to DD for them.
This patch was meant to make things more accessible. Absolutely not what’s happening here.

Although they promised better accessibility with U35, It was obvious that it would do the exact opposite. They was warned. We can only ask now, if it was ignorance or dishonesty what made difference betwen promisis and reality.

AcadianPaladin · September 2022

I take my dps numbers from actual 1.8m bosses - generally easier WBs with simple mechanics (like the Abomination in Deeshan). And I'm a PvE soloist. Who know that my 25k dps was so close to the 'ceiling' that is needed to be nerfed to 15k dps? Or that accessibility meant making some of the content I could previously do now. . . inaccessible?

MudcrabAttack · September 2022

Warden was slammed hardest, for whatever reason that had nothing to do with the reality in trials last patch. You would have a way easier time hitting target numbers on some other class this time around

dmnqwk · September 2022

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Managed to parse 75k but still that’s rubbish. One of the trails groups I’m in requires an 85k Parse to DD for them.
This patch was meant to make things more accessible. Absolutely not what’s happening here.

U35 means you need to change a LOT of your build, more than you were probably expecting.

Looking at your dots you'll notice how much weaker they are - so it's important to consider the activation cost of each DoT
Each sticky dot seems to be around 1k/second when cast as a baseline, while the Class-based ground dots (path of darkness, winter's respite etc) are doing about 1.3k/second

Each of these will be over 120 seconds and all use the same number of ability activations (with spammables used for those that require fewer casts over the time)
Winter's Respite (normal): 10 uses for 1.3k*120 = 156k
Winter's Respite (backbar staff): 5 uses for 1.3k*60*1.3(extra 30%) = 202.8k
Fetcher Infection: 6 uses (plus 4 spammables as filler) = 1k*120 +0.6k*60+12k*4 = 120k+36k+48k = 204k
Degeneration: 5 uses (with passives; plus 5 spammables filler) = 1k*120+12k*5 = 180k
Spider Silk (undaunted skill, about 18k per activation): 10 uses for 1.5*120 = 180k

As you can see from the example, Winter's Respite without a staff is bottom of the barrel, but even with the staff buff it's still second to Fetcher Infection because of the opportunity cost of using a 20 second dot versus a 12 second dot. If you switch up spammables and don't use a strong one (Rapid Strikes might be 12k, but some of the others will be 10k or even as low as 9k) then skills using spammable fillers because they require fewer activations become weaker.

I was parsing 104k before the patch, now I am back up to 100k parse and my parsing build (on a stamden) uses Degeneration, Fetcher Infection, Barbed Trap and Carve as my DoTs (pretty much all 20 second or longer dots). It's still lower damage, but it's definitely not as bad as it could've been.

Klingenlied · September 2022

dmnqwk wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Managed to parse 75k but still that’s rubbish. One of the trails groups I’m in requires an 85k Parse to DD for them.
This patch was meant to make things more accessible. Absolutely not what’s happening here.

U35 means you need to change a LOT of your build, more than you were probably expecting.

Looking at your dots you'll notice how much weaker they are - so it's important to consider the activation cost of each DoT
Each sticky dot seems to be around 1k/second when cast as a baseline, while the Class-based ground dots (path of darkness, winter's respite etc) are doing about 1.3k/second

Each of these will be over 120 seconds and all use the same number of ability activations (with spammables used for those that require fewer casts over the time)
Winter's Respite (normal): 10 uses for 1.3k*120 = 156k
Winter's Respite (backbar staff): 5 uses for 1.3k*60*1.3(extra 30%) = 202.8k
Fetcher Infection: 6 uses (plus 4 spammables as filler) = 1k*120 +0.6k*60+12k*4 = 120k+36k+48k = 204k
Degeneration: 5 uses (with passives; plus 5 spammables filler) = 1k*120+12k*5 = 180k
Spider Silk (undaunted skill, about 18k per activation): 10 uses for 1.5*120 = 180k

As you can see from the example, Winter's Respite without a staff is bottom of the barrel, but even with the staff buff it's still second to Fetcher Infection because of the opportunity cost of using a 20 second dot versus a 12 second dot. If you switch up spammables and don't use a strong one (Rapid Strikes might be 12k, but some of the others will be 10k or even as low as 9k) then skills using spammable fillers because they require fewer activations become weaker.

I was parsing 104k before the patch, now I am back up to 100k parse and my parsing build (on a stamden) uses Degeneration, Fetcher Infection, Barbed Trap and Carve as my DoTs (pretty much all 20 second or longer dots). It's still lower damage, but it's definitely not as bad as it could've been.

Yea, Stamden still can dish out rather well. On Stamden however, Adanced Species does work for you (+10% roughly compared to mag), you needn't worry about cliff racer mag morph not proccing 400 spellpower on bosses because you have the bleed. I mean it does suck thus you likely use something else, but still. Now add to this 10% the "opportunity cost" of staying at range with staves and you loose out on another chunk that is even more then "just" 10%. So overall, mag parses pretty bad but does perform even worse in actual content with STILL performing worse in solo content.

However, with the current gap as huge as it is, I imagine this being some kind of oversight. Dunno, stuff that wasn't clear when looking at spread sheets. Can't believe they intended for it.
If it doesn't get fixed .. dunno. Guess moving to a different class or even game because I am pretty simple in this one regard: I want to have fun when gaming.

ixthUA · September 2022

I never did trials, now i stopped doing dungeons too, only do solo overland. Changed my DD setup gear to training perk for extra exp. In overland i can feel nerfs, but they are not so bad compared to normal base game dungeons.
On top in dungeons i cannot use my companions and pale order ring, they really are inferior to overland grind.

Everest_Lionheart · September 2022

Magblade is the only toon I’ve tested so far because update only came yesterday to console. I was hitting comfortable 105K last patch in Kinras + Bahsei + kilt/Slimecraw + vMA 2H.

Swapped my vMA 2H for master inferno backbar. Hit 85K first parse, 90K second parse.

Changed kilt/Slimecraw for 2pc Zaan. 95K.

Better mag management eventually got me to 101K. Only 4K DPS loss over last patch after less than an hour of work.

Yes trial dummy numbers are inflated but I also play in fully optimized groups. I never cared for pushing the 120K+ dps numbers last patch because they were not needed and 101K is good enough for all content so long as you can stay alive and have good time on target.

The staying alive part on the other hand is the issue this patch. Damage was never the problem, it’s still not a problem for good players. It needed to be toned down, I don’t like the way it was done by tinkering with dot damage ticks and duration but the ease of rotation and spamable fest makes up the gaps.

Managing those new timers is a bit all over the place right now. On blade I have timers of 12, 18, 20, 22 and 24 to keep track of now in addition to my bow procs. It all a bit convoluted even though I am wearing out my spamable button. It doesn’t make the content any more engaging or accessible. The margin of error was already fairly small for clearing some HM trails and trifectas, now it requires perfection plus perfect RNG in some situations.

Vet HM has become Elder Souls Online.

Try fingers, but hole.

Cyber10 · September 2022

I definitely noticed a drop and do not feel like I am hitting as hard as I was. I really do not see why they had to nerf DPS so bad, for what they claim they wanted to accomplish. Overall this update has made me play less and not enjoy ESO like I did.

Less enjoyment + no fun = less playtime!! Understand ZOS?

Caribou77 · September 2022

I main a magicka warden, and mostly play PVP, though definitely do enough dungeons to get good gear, etc.

My deep fissure went from 16.6k dmg pre U35 to 12.2k dmg post U35. The nine second delay to the second hit is untenable in both PVE and PVP.

I’ve had to be very creative with gear sets and playing styles to keep my magica warden competitive in PVP over the past 2 years. I now feel that it is broken beyond repair. I will probably quit the game soon.

llBlack_Heartll · September 2022

Caribou77 wrote: »

I main a magicka warden, and mostly play PVP, though definitely do enough dungeons to get good gear, etc.

My deep fissure went from 16.6k dmg pre U35 to 12.2k dmg post U35. The nine second delay to the second hit is untenable in both PVE and PVP.

I’ve had to be very creative with gear sets and playing styles to keep my magica warden competitive in PVP over the past 2 years. I now feel that it is broken beyond repair. I will probably quit the game soon.

Yeah not good at all

time to put the warden away I think.

llBlack_Heartll · September 2022

I was prepared for a drop in DPS and thought I’d be on a similar 90k parse with the add on to the new dummy.
But to be now out of contention for some content and only parsing 75k. I’m just a bit gob smacked. I’m back to where I was 3 years ago.

preevious · September 2022

I'd add a little something that helped me and might help getting back that DPS.

I noticed that when parsing, with the new trial dummy debuffs, I was over the cap in critical damage. As soon as I removed some crit damage in favour of more spell damage; my DPS went back up.
You might look there.

MidniteOwl1913 · September 2022

Pugged Unhallowed Grave tonight, it took 45 minutes. I was the healer, and it is pretty bad. The mad boss had so many wipes, it seemed to me that the margin for error with the timing of the poison wave and the boss one shot was reduced. It just felt like a slough, it wasn't fun, it took forever and I don't think I ever want to do that dungeon again.

The last time I ran this dungeon, no one died, we all had fun and it took 30 minutes.

Dangranma_Burgrukgad · September 2022

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Better mag management eventually got me to 101K. Only 4K DPS loss over last patch after less than an hour of work.

Think you missed a change they made, new trial dummy give you more buffs so yuo can't compare them.
You've lost quite more then 4k.

Everest_Lionheart · September 2022

MrLasagna wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Better mag management eventually got me to 101K. Only 4K DPS loss over last patch after less than an hour of work.

Think you missed a change they made, new trial dummy give you more buffs so yuo can't compare them.
You've lost quite more then 4k.

It’s the only measure we have on console. I mentioned in the groups I play we are optimized. We have EC, brittle, MK, spaulder, encratis, zen, nazaray, turning tide, RoJo, pillager. Our groups buffs exceed what’s on the dummy.

As for content very little changed for my vCR3 prog group damage wise. Healing wise though it’s hell, that’s a change that should have never made it to the game. The need to top off with self heals though certain mechs is what causes more of a dip in dps than LA nerf or dot nerf.

Best advice I can give is to know the difference between your sticky dots and ground dots in content especially in those mobile fights. People are over casting like crazy and that’s hurting dps. Run a master staff backbar as well 20 second easy sticky dot that procs your enchant and can be applied to multiple targets. When you learn the new timers you will be able to fire off significantly more spamabale attacks making up the dps gap.

I saw a post above as well regarding crit cap on dummy I’m goi g to respond to that here in a second. That’s also a big reason for loss when parsing as backstabber and FF no longer really needed on most classes.

Everest_Lionheart · September 2022

preevious wrote: »

I'd add a little something that helped me and might help getting back that DPS.

I noticed that when parsing, with the new trial dummy debuffs, I was over the cap in critical damage. As soon as I removed some crit damage in favour of more spell damage; my DPS went back up.
You might look there.

This is a great point here. To hit crit cap on the trial dummy you need to add 30% only. Content you may need more. If you play a plar, den or blade you only need to add 20%. Khajiit you only need to add 18%.

Khajiit nightblade 8%. With kilt you are 2% over cap, so slot FF, drop kilt run Kjalnar or Zaan. Minor force not even needed, if you do run minor force (+10%) you will be 2% over however trap is one of the best dots in the game so slot CP accordingly best choice on dummy probably exploiter.

Other reference: each medium gives 2%, orders wrath gives 8% and it’s craftable. Fighting finesse CP also 8% and backstabber 10%. Again those last two aren’t even needed if you build properly, you may want to run FF in content though depending on group. 4 man you will want minor force as well and you will probably be under the cap still.

The more you know. GL out there.

xthrshx · September 2022

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

101K is good enough for all content so long as you can stay alive and have good time on target.

…

The margin of error was already fairly small for clearing some HM trails and trifectas, now it requires perfection plus perfect RNG in some situations.

There’s a contradiction here.

101k (on the buffed dummy) is absolutely not good enough for Planesbreaker or Swashbuckler Supreme. If that’s what everyone is hitting, you’re not getting those achievements.

Maybe you don’t care and maybe that doesn’t affect you, but it makes content inaccessible for some people who were previously working on it.

Everest_Lionheart · September 2022

xthrshx wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

101K is good enough for all content so long as you can stay alive and have good time on target.

…

The margin of error was already fairly small for clearing some HM trails and trifectas, now it requires perfection plus perfect RNG in some situations.

There’s a contradiction here.

101k (on the buffed dummy) is absolutely not good enough for Planesbreaker or Swashbuckler Supreme. If that’s what everyone is hitting, you’re not getting those achievements.

Maybe you don’t care and maybe that doesn’t affect you, but it makes content inaccessible for some people who were previously working on it.

Trifectas are doomed now even if everyone is group is hitting 120K DPS. The healing nerfs are too much to overcome. That’s not to say they might not still happen but a lot of things have to go right in order to get them. It’s become a battle of attrition against the RNG gods.

Likewise people aren’t dying this patch in HM trials because of the dps nerf, yes it may take longer to kill stuff which means more incoming damage but survivability is directly related to healing. They only toned down boss HP to compensate without factoring in incoming damage. DPS output is fine, it was way too high before and most of us agreed on that. The convoluted way they went about the nerf is something none of us asked for. The fact that nerf also applied to healing is a travesty.

llBlack_Heartll · September 2022

So I guess Ill need to resign to the fact, for me to chase decent DPS. I will need to follow a all out Meta Build and rotation, instead of having fun with what I put together.

Triplesixtyson · September 2022

"So I guess Ill need to resign to the fact, for me to chase decent DPS. I will need to follow a all out Meta Build and rotation, instead of having fun with what I put together."

Its always been that way though. Theres many top builds to use, many close to meta that are just as viable for high dps output. The reality is these games cant stagenate, if builds stayed the same year after year no one would be playing and complaints of not enough changes would be the sentiment.

llBlack_Heartll · September 2022

Triplesixtyson wrote: »

"So I guess Ill need to resign to the fact, for me to chase decent DPS. I will need to follow a all out Meta Build and rotation, instead of having fun with what I put together."

Its always been that way though. Theres many top builds to use, many close to meta that are just as viable for high dps output. The reality is these games cant stagenate, if builds stayed the same year after year no one would be playing and complaints of not enough changes would be the sentiment.

Well not necessarily. Last patch I could easy do 91k dps and the trail group I am in accept 85k videoed parse to be in the group and I could achieve that with a build that I liked. Now it’s shot to pieces and I have to fine a build I can get back over 85k.