Surprise Attack Stun Loss

Wuuffyy · August 2022

Question: How are nbs in a better spot now that we no longer have a stun without an exorbitant off gcd cost.

Mass Hysteria in its prime was good, but just good. However, this was back when 1) people actually died when attacked by a high damage player in a CC, 2) People didn’t have an auto CC break CP for free, 3) There wasn’t a cast time attached to every single high damage nb ability in the game, and 4) Both sides (mag-Stan) didn’t roll dodge without true consequences just for the fun of it?

In addition to this, fear costs nearly 4K to use, comes off another gcd ability that does little to no good for other benefits when used as a DD, and I’m at an extreme loss when I began thinking of other CCs to replace it which didn’t make the cut before.

This is all in addition to: guaranteed crit somehow being both nearly useless, and at the same time invalidates my crit chance which I have a lot of as a nb as a whole.

Why would this not have just received the Dizzy treatment: 2 attacks (one to set off balance, and one follow up) to stun? Or even to just place it back as a stun from stealth only. This move has stunned in some form or another for nearly 6 years, even when mass hysteria was one of the best CCs in the game.

Wuuffyy · August 2022

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Question: How are nbs in a better spot now that we no longer have a stun without an exorbitant off gcd cost.

Mass Hysteria in its prime was good, but just good. However, this was back when 1) people actually died when attacked by a high damage player in a CC, 2) People didn’t have an auto CC break CP for free, 3) There wasn’t a cast time attached to every single high damage nb ability in the game, and 4) Both sides (mag-Stan) didn’t roll dodge without true consequences just for the fun of it?

In addition to this, fear costs nearly 4K to use, comes off another gcd ability that does little to no good for other benefits when used as a DD, and I’m at an extreme loss when I began thinking of other CCs to replace it which didn’t make the cut before.

This is all in addition to: guaranteed crit somehow being both nearly useless, and at the same time invalidates my crit chance which I have a lot of as a nb as a whole.

Why would this not have just received the Dizzy treatment: 2 attacks (one to set off balance, and one follow up) to stun? Or even to just place it back as a stun from stealth only. This move has stunned in some form or another for nearly 6 years, even when mass hysteria was one of the best CCs in the game.

My main point here (that I believe people could be on board with): I don’t believe that mass hysteria is good enough. Is it maybe time to start looking at cast times on single target ultimate and limited (5 las for a bow) attacks? And, additionally, see why they should still be there when multiple counters exist for them, block/dodge. Not to mention they are obvious with a lot of noise attached anyway.

tsaescishoeshiner · August 2022

What if Mass Hysteria dealt damage once every x seconds (if the stun hits)? The cooldown means it couldn't be used as a spammable, so it could deal good damage.

It's that or a stun on Teleport Strike, which could be an issue because a) it has a cast time, and 2) the skill has been reworked quite a bit already.

Wuuffyy · August 2022

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

What if Mass Hysteria dealt damage once every x seconds (if the stun hits)? The cooldown means it couldn't be used as a spammable, so it could deal good damage.

It's that or a stun on Teleport Strike, which could be an issue because a) it has a cast time, and 2) the skill has been reworked quite a bit already.

Anything that would be pertinent to a damage dealer. Or even a stam morph or split like whip. For me I think it’s in a good spot for mag as it can be really useful. Just not as much for stam as the mag drain is already so intensive.

w002exp · August 2022

I don't think Hysteria is designed to be a stun used to close a kill. It wouldn't make sense as it has no additional effect.

I think in it's current form it's more of an "oh crap get out of jail free card" for gankers who accidentally find themselves in a large skirmish that they are too squishy to remain in.

But when you look at the buff to mass hysteria, it isn't even useful in 3/4 of PvP gameplay. It's not useful in Duels or BGs and will be very rarely useful in IC. (Because you are not likely to encounter more than 6 opponents there) So the only place that would ever warrant mass hysteria is Cyrodil.

The morph, oddly, seemed like it only received nerfs.....

Not really sure where ZoS was going with this either....

Wuuffyy · August 2022

w002exp wrote: »

I don't think Hysteria is designed to be a stun used to close a kill. It wouldn't make sense as it has no additional effect.

I think in it's current form it's more of an "oh crap get out of jail free card" for gankers who accidentally find themselves in a large skirmish that they are too squishy to remain in.

But when you look at the buff to mass hysteria, it isn't even useful in 3/4 of PvP gameplay. It's not useful in Duels or BGs and will be very rarely useful in IC. (Because you are not likely to encounter more than 6 opponents there) So the only place that would ever warrant mass hysteria is Cyrodil.

The morph, oddly, seemed like it only received nerfs.....

Not really sure where ZoS was going with this either....

Correct, additionally, I feel pvp is an ever-increasing fight to see who has the worst sustain and when you no longer have a meaningful cc that doesn’t drain the person you are attacking more than you, it has failed its purpose in my person opinion.

I absolutely understands it unblock able, however, when you compare in to the likes of the new arctic wind, it pales in comparison (this does not mean arctic wind needs a nerf).

OBJnoob · August 2022

There are tiers to PvP and the strategy changes as you go up. One of the phases, definitely at the high end of the middle, is to try to run the other player out of resources. But I definitely wouldn't say its what all fights boil down to. A phase slightly higher features players that cheese sustain with resto heavies because they don't have sustain in the traditional sense what they have is probably cost reduction, passives, potions, and excellent management... Oops bit of a tangent... Anyway these players won't run out of a resource, and since they have more damage in their burst window (because that's how they're built, and I'm only saying this because its a nb thread so this should be extra relevant... PS you can have superb "not on the stat sheet" sustain on a nb,) the strategy actually reverts to the very first phase of PvP we all came to love. Timing a combo. But again... If they're on their backbar heavy attacking not only will they not run out of resources but you won't kill them either.

BUT. Returning this to the topic (sorry about that,) my assertion is that mass hysteria is actually a fine and dandy stun, whether there's one or 6 enemies. And it doesn't matter how much it costs because I'm not going to run out of magic. For one thing that hasn't been mentioned here it activates the nb passive that grants major resolve. Fits NICELY on a backbar, right next to a row of siphoning skills and heals. Use it defensively... Cuz you gotta pretend that you occasionally fight people not just 3-shot plebs all day... Use it on cool down, until you're ready to stun them with your ult instead.

Now I will say, and I know someone already said it, that the cast time on incap (both morphs,) should probably be erased. That would probably make everybody happy and we wouldn't even be talking about this...

But as far as concealed weapon and surprise attack goes... They're pretty overloaded. Not sure they need/should have an amazing stun attached to them anyway.

Turtle_Bot · September 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

But as far as concealed weapon and surprise attack goes... They're pretty overloaded. Not sure they need/should have an amazing stun attached to them anyway.

Exactly this, I would even go further, with the off balance provided by both morphs, which not only provides an additional +10% damage done from the CP, but also allowing you to time your stun when you want it instead of relying on the window out of stealth makes it much more dangerous, especially in the hands of a good player.

birdik · September 2022

It is official: hysteria is sheet:
you can dodge it in 1 meter
you can miss it very easy
it is *** 4k of mana

give stam nb normal cc or make fear undavoidable and solo target and far range , nobody care even 3 targets, it always 1

Dr_Con · September 2022

the fear often catches people who just break free from a stun off guard, if anything it should share the stun cooldown. there's way too much stuff to break free from, to roll dodge out of, that people have combat alerts specifically tailored to notifying them of these things, which further automates pvp'ing. be careful of what you ask for.

Wuuffyy · September 2022

birdik wrote: »

It is official: hysteria is sheet:
you can dodge it in 1 meter
you can miss it very easy
it is *** 4k of mana

give stam nb normal cc or make fear undavoidable and solo target and far range , nobody care even 3 targets, it always 1

I would appreciate this. Maybe not too far of range but not a bad idea. I do not mind slotting a stun, this is completely valid. Just not in a great shape where it’s at.

ChunkyCat · September 2022

If you strike an enemy (with Surprise Attack) from the flank, you set the enemy off balance. If your enemy is “off balance”, a medium weave attack will then knock them down (stunning them).

There’s also a stun on Incap, the NB ultimate.

Aaaaand, there’s the NB fear ability.

Bro, you don’t need the mindless stun from Surprise Attack. Now you have the ability to control when you’re stunning your opponent….

You literally have more control over your burst window. 👀

Wuuffyy · September 2022

ChunkyCat wrote: »

If you strike an enemy (with Surprise Attack) from the flank, you set the enemy off balance. If your enemy is “off balance”, a medium weave attack will then knock them down (stunning them).

There’s also a stun on Incap, the NB ultimate.

Aaaaand, there’s the NB fear ability.

Bro, you don’t need the mindless stun from Surprise Attack. Now you have the ability to control when you’re stunning your opponent….

You literally have more control over your burst window. 👀

All roll dodge able with a cast time. Off balance has a cooldown after it’s down of 15 seconds. If someone else stuns your target or the target is cc immune an additional way, you have a up to 22 second cooldown (assuming they aren’t already on CD as this buff is very common) before you can stun again (can be blocked and rolled).

In addition this, the ult is a horrible method to stun. Very predictable. Blockable, rollable, cast time and additionally, the worst part, you are locked out of the ult for multiple seconds when the upgrade happens (because coding not good on this swap) when using vamp 2 or 3 (pvp you are at a loss not using these).

Additionally, fear costs nearly 4,000 mag and if I am bouncing b/w targets as a nb or an assassin should, I am not able to continuously spam this while needed to cloak, shade, and everything of this nature at this same time. I would not mind it if it was stam or had a variant or was split, however, the real issue is that it is clearly meant for use as a damage dealer to escape and doesn’t do anything additional substantial for that user in not group play.

OBJnoob · September 2022

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Additionally, fear costs nearly 4,000 mag and if I am bouncing b/w targets as a nb or an assassin should, I am not able to continuously spam this while needed to cloak, shade, and everything of this nature at this same time. I would not mind it if it was stam or had a variant or was split, however, the real issue is that it is clearly meant for use as a damage dealer to escape and doesn’t do anything additional substantial for that user in not group play.

This point doesn't make sense to me. It seems like you're saying 1) its meant for escape (which I agree with... Escape or alleviate pressure,) 2) night blades already have better escape tools (which of course is true,) and then you say 3) fear needs to cost less because its too expensive to use in conjunction with the other stuff.

I disagree. How many escape tools does one class need?? Fear doesn't need to be buffed to compete with shade or invis. They are all three unique to nb and extremely powerful.

I say again... Remove the cast time on incap (both morphs,) and we wouldn't be talking about any of this. Everything else is fine. Better than fine. I would expect nerfs soon.

DrNukenstein · September 2022

I like they took the stun off. Watching someone/overland trash turn upside down when I short heavy into an execute or soul harvest probably won't get old, and not being likely to acciditentally give someone cc immunity too soon is objectively an improvement on kill potential. What I don't like is the jankiness of the surprise attack crit on flank every 4 seconds, and that the concealed weapon buff doesn't consistently work on the opener kind of like Stygian and Vamp 2.

It would be really great if SA instead got a crit damage bonus on flank, and stealth damage bonuses were constant while in stealth and counted down outside of stealth.

Turtle_Bot · September 2022

If you're so worried about having an instant cast aoe stun that costs stamina instead of magicka because the mag cost is too high, look into the fighters guild fear skill Turn Evil.

It's AoE, instant cast and instant stun, provides damage buffs from the fighters guild passives and it costs stamina.

It also gets cheaper as well, only costing 3200 stamina with intimidating presence (and costs less with other cost reduction), it also gives you 3% unique damage increase and grants minor protection and minor endurance, decreasing damage taken by 5% and increasing stam recovery by 15%.

NB does not need the stun on surprise attack back, the class has access to so many other ways to stun now (both offensively and defensively), including incap, medium weave on a target that was hit by surprise/concealed thanks to the off balance proc on that skill, hysteria and FG fear. Not to mention, 3 of the 4 best ways to escape enemies in the game with shade max movement speed and cloak (the remaining being streak), not to mention the strong burst heal in healthy/shrewd offering and good HoTs in vigor for stam and refreshing path for mag.

Crom_CCCXVI · September 2022

Are Stuns still in the game..

Play a DK, put fossilize on and let me know next time you can use it...
and even when it does work, they break it in 1 sec and then are good for another 3minutes or something.

This game doesn't want anyone to die ever in PvP unless it's to a Dark Convergence ball group or a mob of 10 guys all hitting you for 2k dmg each

birdik · September 2022

ChunkyCat wrote: »

If you strike an enemy (with Surprise Attack) from the flank, you set the enemy off balance. If your enemy is “off balance”, a medium weave attack will then knock them down (stunning them).

There’s also a stun on Incap, the NB ultimate.

Aaaaand, there’s the NB fear ability.

Bro, you don’t need the mindless stun from Surprise Attack. Now you have the ability to control when you’re stunning your opponent….

You literally have more control over your burst window. 👀

Bro, i get tired these "advices". it works only on paper, ppl just hold block or run/dodge off balance status until it go to cd

Wuuffyy · September 2022

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

If you're so worried about having an instant cast aoe stun that costs stamina instead of magicka because the mag cost is too high, look into the fighters guild fear skill Turn Evil.

It's AoE, instant cast and instant stun, provides damage buffs from the fighters guild passives and it costs stamina.

It also gets cheaper as well, only costing 3200 stamina with intimidating presence (and costs less with other cost reduction), it also gives you 3% unique damage increase and grants minor protection and minor endurance, decreasing damage taken by 5% and increasing stam recovery by 15%.

NB does not need the stun on surprise attack back, the class has access to so many other ways to stun now (both offensively and defensively), including incap, medium weave on a target that was hit by surprise/concealed thanks to the off balance proc on that skill, hysteria and FG fear. Not to mention, 3 of the 4 best ways to escape enemies in the game with shade max movement speed and cloak (the remaining being streak), not to mention the strong burst heal in healthy/shrewd offering and good HoTs in vigor for stam and refreshing path for mag.

Skill is garbage. Has only repetitive aux effects, costs way too much and is easily missed. With what you previously mentioned, I’m not asking for the stun back, however, I’m asking for a more pertinent stun to use for us to slot. Potentially an ability that is around half costs and has good aux effects like fossilize, however, not the same. OR the mag fear to have a stam cost component depending on certain factors. The problem is, that was not a replacement or reason to take the stun off SA and does not result in it being in a healthier place either.

Wuuffyy · September 2022

birdik wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

If you strike an enemy (with Surprise Attack) from the flank, you set the enemy off balance. If your enemy is “off balance”, a medium weave attack will then knock them down (stunning them).

There’s also a stun on Incap, the NB ultimate.

Aaaaand, there’s the NB fear ability.

Bro, you don’t need the mindless stun from Surprise Attack. Now you have the ability to control when you’re stunning your opponent….

You literally have more control over your burst window. 👀

Bro, i get tired these "advices". it works only on paper, ppl just hold block or run/dodge off balance status until it go to cd

Exactly, except if you really analyze it, it doesn’t even on paper. There are so many factors that make every single not slot table stun of ours situational and or gimmicky and can easily fail real time. What happens when I surprise attack before an incap and get the off balance while their CC immune. I am waiting 22 seconds to stun or using 4000 mag on potentially just one person to successfully stun them? Mag we don’t have as we are forced to use more and more mag to be effective as forced hybridization encroaches closer and closer.

StarOfElyon · September 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

There are tiers to PvP and the strategy changes as you go up. One of the phases, definitely at the high end of the middle, is to try to run the other player out of resources. But I definitely wouldn't say its what all fights boil down to. A phase slightly higher features players that cheese sustain with resto heavies because they don't have sustain in the traditional sense what they have is probably cost reduction, passives, potions, and excellent management... Oops bit of a tangent... Anyway these players won't run out of a resource, and since they have more damage in their burst window (because that's how they're built, and I'm only saying this because its a nb thread so this should be extra relevant... PS you can have superb "not on the stat sheet" sustain on a nb,) the strategy actually reverts to the very first phase of PvP we all came to love. Timing a combo. But again... If they're on their backbar heavy attacking not only will they not run out of resources but you won't kill them either.

BUT. Returning this to the topic (sorry about that,) my assertion is that mass hysteria is actually a fine and dandy stun, whether there's one or 6 enemies. And it doesn't matter how much it costs because I'm not going to run out of magic. For one thing that hasn't been mentioned here it activates the nb passive that grants major resolve. Fits NICELY on a backbar, right next to a row of siphoning skills and heals. Use it defensively... Cuz you gotta pretend that you occasionally fight people not just 3-shot plebs all day... Use it on cool down, until you're ready to stun them with your ult instead.

Now I will say, and I know someone already said it, that the cast time on incap (both morphs,) should probably be erased. That would probably make everybody happy and we wouldn't even be talking about this...

But as far as concealed weapon and surprise attack goes... They're pretty overloaded. Not sure they need/should have an amazing stun attached to them anyway.

Yeah, my brawler/tank dark cloak blade is fine with Mass Hysteria as it is.

OBJnoob · September 2022

Yes, my brawler magnb is also very strong with it. And I understand most nbs take a different approach... But so if you already have shade and invisibility how much can you really complain about an aoe stun?

master_vanargand · September 2022

PvP NB is not fun anymore.
That's all. Game over.

Kory · September 2022

Get rid of the "guaranteed" crit from flank and add back the stun and leave it alone. The 4 second crit cooldown with the removal of the stun is just a plain nerf that pretends to be a buff just because you put "guaranteed crit" in the tooltip.

Wuuffyy · September 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes, my brawler magnb is also very strong with it. And I understand most nbs take a different approach... But so if you already have shade and invisibility how much can you really complain about an aoe stun?

Right… please do not post bait on my posts. I respect your opinion, however, this comes off as very, well yeah please no bait.

And0ssus · September 2022

Surprise Attack was just to overtuned if you compared it to other spammables the Last Patches.

It procced off balance
It procced a Status effect which proccs minor breach + a little dmg on top (which added up to an already hard hitting ability)
It stunned from flank - so little to no counterplay because of Position desyncs.
yeah i know DK stun has non as Well in that Sense for example, but the dmg followed up is pretty Low and its Not spamable.

That all on a spamable, while they removed stuns a while ago on spamables.

Fear isn't bad as a stun (unblockable), doesn't have a target Limit (probably more usuable as a group than as solo Player) and has now Major cowardice which reduces healing and dmg on other People.

Ragnaroek93 · September 2022

And0ssus wrote: »

Surprise Attack was just to overtuned if you compared it to other spammables the Last Patches.

It procced off balance
It procced a Status effect which proccs minor breach + a little dmg on top (which added up to an already hard hitting ability)
It stunned from flank - so little to no counterplay because of Position desyncs.
yeah i know DK stun has non as Well in that Sense for example, but the dmg followed up is pretty Low and its Not spamable.

That all on a spamable, while they removed stuns a while ago on spamables.

Fear isn't bad as a stun (unblockable), doesn't have a target Limit (probably more usuable as a group than as solo Player) and has now Major cowardice which reduces healing and dmg on other People.

In the last patches Whip, Jabs and Crystal Weapon were far better...

Wuuffyy · September 2022

And0ssus wrote: »

Surprise Attack was just to overtuned if you compared it to other spammables the Last Patches.

It procced off balance
It procced a Status effect which proccs minor breach + a little dmg on top (which added up to an already hard hitting ability)
It stunned from flank - so little to no counterplay because of Position desyncs.
yeah i know DK stun has non as Well in that Sense for example, but the dmg followed up is pretty Low and its Not spamable.

That all on a spamable, while they removed stuns a while ago on spamables.

Fear isn't bad as a stun (unblockable), doesn't have a target Limit (probably more usuable as a group than as solo Player) and has now Major cowardice which reduces healing and dmg on other People.

Off balance has been a forced dps mechanic, especially for pvp that is tied to various other methods of spammables or combos such as: toppling charge (plar), dizzy (all stam), whip (dk), bird (warden), lightning destro (wall), etc. This is a forced mechanic that has nothing to do with surprise attack and can be found multiple places.

The status effect is something that can already proc from the move itself normally. With that in mind, assuming I use it once a second for 4 seconds, it has a good chance of proc’ing the effect regardless. And is completely null and void when it was supposed to proc anyway. Yes the little bit of dmg is nice but it is VERY, VERY small.

Stun from flank with positional dsync has nothing to do with nb. With this being said, plenty of nb passives encourage this assassin class to stay behind the opponent and is a perfectly valid method of play when dizzy, for example, does 20% more damage and basically just immediately stuns on the second hit.

Okay, dk stuns like fossilize, what does this do?
-free proc for off balance via whip
-hard stun thru block/roll (fairly low cost)
-either immobilize or a massive free burst heal
-decent free damage
-free 1k stam
-proc a minor brutality passive, etc

Fear is a good stun, but for a STAMINA-based nb, it costs way too much. For mag oriented builds it’s perfect. However, stamina moves b/w targets frequently as it is high risk vs rewards vs tank and spank. This mixed with the already very intensive mag drain on blade make this a very, very high costing-low efficiency ability. This, in addition to: the fact it has no damage oriented auxiliary effects, or a stam morph in this particular case.

Lastly, and most important, this was taken off because it has guaranteed crit which invalidate the majority of nbs passive and class synergy with cloak. Not an appropriate item, especially when gankers use it better than anyone.

LittlePinkDot · September 2022

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Question: How are nbs in a better spot now that we no longer have a stun without an exorbitant off gcd cost.

Mass Hysteria in its prime was good, but just good. However, this was back when 1) people actually died when attacked by a high damage player in a CC, 2) People didn’t have an auto CC break CP for free, 3) There wasn’t a cast time attached to every single high damage nb ability in the game, and 4) Both sides (mag-Stan) didn’t roll dodge without true consequences just for the fun of it?

In addition to this, fear costs nearly 4K to use, comes off another gcd ability that does little to no good for other benefits when used as a DD, and I’m at an extreme loss when I began thinking of other CCs to replace it which didn’t make the cut before.

This is all in addition to: guaranteed crit somehow being both nearly useless, and at the same time invalidates my crit chance which I have a lot of as a nb as a whole.

Why would this not have just received the Dizzy treatment: 2 attacks (one to set off balance, and one follow up) to stun? Or even to just place it back as a stun from stealth only. This move has stunned in some form or another for nearly 6 years, even when mass hysteria was one of the best CCs in the game.

What about crippling grasp?

Wuuffyy · September 2022

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Question: How are nbs in a better spot now that we no longer have a stun without an exorbitant off gcd cost.

Mass Hysteria in its prime was good, but just good. However, this was back when 1) people actually died when attacked by a high damage player in a CC, 2) People didn’t have an auto CC break CP for free, 3) There wasn’t a cast time attached to every single high damage nb ability in the game, and 4) Both sides (mag-Stan) didn’t roll dodge without true consequences just for the fun of it?

In addition to this, fear costs nearly 4K to use, comes off another gcd ability that does little to no good for other benefits when used as a DD, and I’m at an extreme loss when I began thinking of other CCs to replace it which didn’t make the cut before.

This is all in addition to: guaranteed crit somehow being both nearly useless, and at the same time invalidates my crit chance which I have a lot of as a nb as a whole.

Why would this not have just received the Dizzy treatment: 2 attacks (one to set off balance, and one follow up) to stun? Or even to just place it back as a stun from stealth only. This move has stunned in some form or another for nearly 6 years, even when mass hysteria was one of the best CCs in the game.

What about crippling grasp?

Crippling grasp is what our stun should be, single target, dmg component, easy to combo. However, it is currently and should stay this way for at least one morph, only a SOFT CC (not an actual stun).