We are not your enemies ZoS.

Einar_Hrafnarsson · August 2022

Please stop, making me feel like i/we did something to you.

There was so much Feedback on the PTS, so much Feedback on different Platforms and on the regular Forums from many, many Players and Content Creators. Some people wrote you half a book with numbers and graphs and why U35 will not achieve what you apparently wanted. At some point a few players even begged you to not release U35 as it is.

You still did this to us. As if you needed to fight us for some reason. Shouldnt a healthy MMO be a Devs+Players relationship? Because right now it feels like a Devs VERSUS Player Battle.
My Friend list is nearly dead, so are the Guilds im in. I also miss my Jabs.... i dont know how i deserve to have my jabs ripped away and have them replaced with a copy of a nighthollow staff made into a shovel of light. Can i at least have my Jabs back please?

The Forums are filled with bad experiences, dissapointment, even grief. It happened exactly what so many people predicted and i just cannot understand why you pulled through with this. Why did you do this?

At the moment i have absolutely no motivation to do anything in ESO and until things are fixed (if ever) ill play another well known MMO. The community there isnt very nice but at least i dont feel like im an enemy of the Development Team there. Quite the opposite.

I really, really hope you learn to see us as individuals again that loved what you created at some point, if not that, maybe you learn to at least see us as costumers again.

We are not your Enemies.

spartaxoxo · August 2022

A company not giving players their way does not mean they view you as an enemy. For reasons I don't understand, they actually thought this was a good idea for the game based off future plans that we aren't privy to. The Q&A that they were said they would do (but then didn't) was apparently supposed to clear some stuff up, but we shall see if it even happens let alone gives us a satisfactory explanation. We'll see.

Freelancer_ESO · August 2022

Modern gaming is generally going to be players vs developers on larger projects.

Your average game developer at this point is someone that is in it due to their passion. (This is also why you have had so many issues with abuse/lousy working conditions in gaming over the past few decades as is par for the course for most passion industries. Ideally, gaming would shift towards more of a mix of people that are in it for the money and people in it for passion rather than primarily drawing on passionate staff.)

Your average player at this point is someone that liked something related to the game rather than actually loving most of the things about the game like some of us did in the past.

This leads to conflict as odds are pretty good what the developer is passionate about is not going to be the same thing as your average player (Think about something you are really passionate about, do you view it the same way as the average person?).

This means that either the developer is going to need to shelve their passion and do what players want or the players are going to get something they don't really want leaving one party or the other frustrated.

Fundamentally, corporate is more on the side of the players than the developers are at this point on large scale projects because corporate can follow what the average person wants and still get what they want far more frequently than developers can.

AlterBlika · August 2022

Only a small part of eso's playerbase sitting on the forum, so it's not that much. Personally I have no issues with u35 whatsoever and still don't understand while some people are whining while others are just playing the game. Mmos tend to change, gotta be used to that.

DizzyMac · August 2022

AlterBlika wrote: »

Only a small part of eso's playerbase sitting on the forum, so it's not that much. Personally I have no issues with u35 whatsoever and still don't understand while some people are whining while others are just playing the game. Mmos tend to change, gotta be used to that.

You are ignoring the fact there are a long list of posts where people are confirming their guilds are falling apart due to players leaving after this update. You are ignoring the large amount people posting on facebook & twitter about their dissatisfaction with the update. And most of all, you are ignoring the youtube & twitch content creators who are either really hating the update or simply walking away to new games.

Its not a minor thing, its actually really bad PR for ZOS that will take far more energy and time to fix than listening to the thousands of people who warned about all this fallout during the PTS phase.

Also, if you arent a DK or NB, PVP is basically ruined for you now with all the nerfs

Artim_X · August 2022

If ZOS released the first version of the PTS I'd fully agree with ya, but they did make changes based on constructive feedback.

However, ZOS wanted to nerf damage which was always going to happen regardless of feedback. My main gripe of this is content not being fully adjusted to the nerf. I want to believe that ZOS knows what they want to do down the line, but getting piecemeal changes instead of the whole meal makes it hard to visualize the full complete picture of what ZOS wants to do, which will understandably make players upset.

ZOS are also excessively fearful of leaving gameplay as is and will often change things just for the sake of change. This is the crux of a horizontal progression game.

I'm the type of person who will play the same build for years as long as ZOS doesn’t break my setup and new content gets released. Of course, every now and then I'll need to farm something new just to get my damage back to where I want it to be (the new empower set).

Ghaleb · August 2022

Artim_X wrote: »

However, ZOS wanted to nerf damage which was always going to happen regardless of feedback. My main gripe of this is content not being fully adjusted to the nerf.

Only partially correct IMHO. They wanted to limit the obscene damage production at the high end and raise the floor to make things more accessible.

They nerfed damage across the board by in average damaging the ability to access content of mid- to low-tier players more than those on the high-end side of things and thus, lowering accessibility. And a lot of folks, including me, on the PTS highlighted that as the outcome.

And with the health nerf you could start to argue for what this whole dance was anyway required. But that is a mystery ZOS seemingly is unable to explain.

Reaver999 · August 2022

DizzyMac wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

Only a small part of eso's playerbase sitting on the forum, so it's not that much. Personally I have no issues with u35 whatsoever and still don't understand while some people are whining while others are just playing the game. Mmos tend to change, gotta be used to that.

You are ignoring the fact there are a long list of posts where people are confirming their guilds are falling apart due to players leaving after this update. You are ignoring the large amount people posting on facebook & twitter about their dissatisfaction with the update. And most of all, you are ignoring the youtube & twitch content creators who are either really hating the update or simply walking away to new games.

Its not a minor thing, its actually really bad PR for ZOS that will take far more energy and time to fix than listening to the thousands of people who warned about all this fallout during the PTS phase.

Also, if you arent a DK or NB, PVP is basically ruined for you now with all the nerfs

Content creators are a voice of the community. They test and build and showcase the game and end up bringing in new players. When they leave the game no longer has free advertisers. Has anyone seen any of those shows out there that rescue failing businesses. One of the first things asked is "Why are you not listening to customer feedback?" Usually it is why they are failing because it is the patrons that hold the answers to the question of their success. On a side note I get you on the DK thing, was PvPing last night with a group and half of them left to swap to dks because nothing was working for them.

MidniteOwl1913 · August 2022

Comments like "obscene damage" and "damage bloat" directed at the player community are not the signs of a healthy give and take. Especially when those comments are followed up with such a massive nerf. It does indeed feel like ZOS had declared war on the high DPS end gamers and the rest of us are just collateral damage. And that accessibility goal? I've not seen any evidence that was ever a priority.

renne · August 2022

We're not their enemies, nor are we their friends.

We exist to them to put money into the game.

boi_anachronism_ · August 2022

I'm just kind of amazed that they don't learn from the history of mmos. There is something called the "death spiral" in the mmo world. It doesn't take much. Fact is that people sit there and say oh it's only a couple end game players... Welp it's more then a couple and lots of those players are raid leads or run guilds on all levels from raide to housing. Mmos are social at their core. What happens when your guilds disband, your friends leave, and suddenly you have no one to play with anymore? This is how a lot of games ended up ultimately in a downward spiral. Even housing content creators on YouTube have talked about this, not just the core combat pve and pvp folks. I used to have on average several hundred folks logged in from all my guilds at any given time when I got on. a mix of social, pve, pvp and trading guilds. In the last few weeks it's now maybe 25-30 at any given time. Have they all quit? Probably not. Are they on hiatus or not logging in near as much or as long? Absolutely.

morrowjen · August 2022

AlterBlika wrote: »

Only a small part of eso's playerbase sitting on the forum, so it's not that much. Personally I have no issues with u35 whatsoever and still don't understand while some people are whining while others are just playing the game. Mmos tend to change, gotta be used to that.

Do you have any idea how insulting this sounds? I'm personally very happy that your game experience isn't being destroyed this patch but a lot of people that have put countless hours into this game, invested their heart and soul, worked to give back and 'git gud' are really hurting because of these changes. People also don't wish to see their friends and acquaintances miserable or see them leave. That's not whining. That's giving an ish.

Jaraal · August 2022

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Comments like "obscene damage" and "damage bloat" directed at the player community are not the signs of a healthy give and take.

Especially when it's not our fault, we are just playing the game they provide. But they want to make it look like the players are somehow responsible for the impending nerf.

Einar_Hrafnarsson · August 2022

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Modern gaming is generally going to be players vs developers on larger projects.

I respectfully disagree. FFXIV is a very good example of how it can be. The Devs do everything they can to give players what they want within the limits of their Game. The only issue i have there is the community. I dont get many good experiences there communitywise.

Arato · August 2022

This thread title is funny, thanks for the laugh

Kingsindarkness · August 2022

We have some really creative folks here thanks for the laughs...

But if you look at the devs Twitters/Twitches and Facebooks...they just don't think like that....just like no one is going to screw up some guys Rob Roy or not Tighten his fan belt because they have a beef with them

That stuff only happens on sensationalized news programs.

The closest I ever came to anything like that is someone who refused to let me be a part of a Trade guild because I rode a Radiant Apex mount. I never seen anyone get so angry over pixels

Dr_Con · August 2022

I'm glad they took away the 1 hit cheese builds, that could have been the whole patch and i'd be happy

everything else is feeling bland. the molten whip change has me like... yeah i know people were complaining about the whip, but you nerfed its damage and made it hybrid cost? [snip]

p.s. guilds that fall apart after 1 week of a patch probably weren't going to last anyways. that sounds like a group of achievement and number chasers (YES THESE PEOPLE EXIST) rather than people who love the franchise.

[edited for profanity bypass]

rexagamemnon · August 2022

The nerf they did to puncturing sweeps is an absolute travesty. No excuse or reason to legitimize intent after what was done to it.

wolfie1.0. · August 2022

renne wrote: »

We're not their enemies, nor are we their friends.

We exist to them to put money into the game.

Your not wrong, but you also need to give people who purchase your products a reason to keep doing so. Otherwise they will move on. Entertainment options are many, time is limited, do you really want your customers to be entertained by your rivals?

wolfie1.0. · August 2022

Dr_Con wrote: »

I'm glad they took away the 1 hit cheese builds, that could have been the whole patch and i'd be happy

everything else is feeling bland. the molten whip change has me like... yeah i know people were complaining about the whip, but you nerfed its damage and made it hybrid cost? [snip]

p.s. guilds that fall apart after 1 week of a patch probably weren't going to last anyways. that sounds like a group of achievement and number chasers (YES THESE PEOPLE EXIST) rather than people who love the franchise.

One can love a franchise and still not want to support current combat system and gameplay style. TES is NOT just ESO. One could make an argument that ESO is actually at its core not a TES game, it's more of a game that is set in the TES world, and yes there is a difference in that. Though honestly ESO probably could never truly BE a true ESO game and still be an MMO.

[edited to remove quote]

PrimusTiberius · August 2022

I think some players are over reacting over this update, there will be more updates and changes in the future, this is not the end of the world.

As a USMC 0331, we train to Improvise, Adapt and Overcome and that's what I intend to do here.

Cheers!

SilverBride · August 2022

ZoS isn't our enemy either. They have no secret agenda and are not looking for ways to harm the player base.

When you have players telling you completely opposite things it's impossible to find a balance that will make everyone happy, so they do the best they can.

If I were ZoS I would listen to feedback given in a calm manner and look into what could be adjusted. But it would be pointless to address predictions of doom or threats.

mzprx · August 2022

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

...and have them replaced with a copy of a nighthollow staff made into a shovel of light...

THIS is the reason i have shelved my beloved Templars indefinitely. i can not look at the new "spear". so yeah, until they revert the animation changes or make a new spear model from scratch that is going to be at least as good as the old one my poor Templars will do nothing. sadly..

Jordan.nick11b14_ESO · August 2022

Well, I canceled my script. I hope everyone stays safe and has fun doing whatever it is they do...but, U35 was a terrible move and now most of my friends are gone. So, I'm going to play something else and save a few bucks every month as well.

I just can't believe the amount of arrogance it takes to push something so divisive on a community like ours. What the heck were they thinking? I guess it doesn't even matter tbh, but still...later dudes.

Jordan.nick11b14_ESO · August 2022

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Modern gaming is generally going to be players vs developers on larger projects.

I respectfully disagree. FFXIV is a very good example of how it can be. The Devs do everything they can to give players what they want within the limits of their Game. The only issue i have there is the community. I dont get many good experiences there communitywise.

Cap. Healers in FF14 have been getting crapped on for years. They've taken our diverse, fun jobs and turned them into 1-button spamLords. Playing a healer is literally casting: "broil, dot, heal, broil, broil, broil, broil, heal, broil, broil, broil, dot, heal...forever. That is NOT giving players what they want. Not even close.

Turtle_Bot · August 2022

Dr_Con wrote: »

I'm glad they took away the 1 hit cheese builds, that could have been the whole patch and i'd be happy

everything else is feeling bland. the molten whip change has me like... yeah i know people were complaining about the whip, but you nerfed its damage and made it hybrid cost? [snip]

p.s. guilds that fall apart after 1 week of a patch probably weren't going to last anyways. that sounds like a group of achievement and number chasers (YES THESE PEOPLE EXIST) rather than people who love the franchise.

Except most of these guilds aren't just new and/or random guilds, many of them are large guilds of veteran players that have been around for years, if not since beta and lasted through all the other patches, even the Morrowind and AwA farces, yet this was the patch those guilds broke up over.
That shows that it was this patch that is an issue, not those guilds, those guilds would have lasted a lot longer than you're espousing if not for the patch being as bad as it is.

[edited to remove quote]

Lebkuchen · August 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

ZoS isn't our enemy either. They have no secret agenda and are not looking for ways to harm the player base. [..]

I hope you are right

ADarklore · August 2022

OP... you just figured this out? How long have you played ESO? Because it has been this way since the beginning... and still players will keep jumping into PTS [snip] VERY VERY rarely do they ever backpedal, not unless there is huge outrage... and I wonder if they would have made any changes this time before it went Live if there hadn't been such a huge backlash posted by numerous media outlets. Even then, most of the negative changes went through anyway.

[snip] PTS is solely for bug testing... find bugs, great they'll address them... find other problems, nope... that's what you're getting regardless. It sucks, but that's how it has been for years and I doubt it will ever change... at least not while current management is still there.

[edited for bashing]

Neelanna48 · August 2022

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

I'm glad they took away the 1 hit cheese builds, that could have been the whole patch and i'd be happy

everything else is feeling bland. the molten whip change has me like... yeah i know people were complaining about the whip, but you nerfed its damage and made it hybrid cost? [snip]

p.s. guilds that fall apart after 1 week of a patch probably weren't going to last anyways. that sounds like a group of achievement and number chasers (YES THESE PEOPLE EXIST) rather than people who love the franchise.

Except most of these guilds aren't just new and/or random guilds, many of them are large guilds of veteran players that have been around for years, if not since beta and lasted through all the other patches, even the Morrowind and AwA farces, yet this was the patch those guilds broke up over.
That shows that it was this patch that is an issue, not those guilds, those guilds would have lasted a lot longer than you're espousing if not for the patch being as bad as it is.

And just to put some numbers here, my guild of 400 players on the EU server last night at prime time had 14 people logged on. I think for a lot of long term players U35 is the *straw that broke the camels back* We are just sick to the back teeth of constant changes every update meaning endless grind for new gear and learning to play classes again. It is like this game has become a chore instead of a pleasure to play and frankly I have better things to do with my spare time and my money.

[edited to remove quote]

Scaletho · August 2022

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

Please stop, making me feel like i/we did something to you.

There was so much Feedback on the PTS, so much Feedback on different Platforms and on the regular Forums from many, many Players and Content Creators. Some people wrote you half a book with numbers and graphs and why U35 will not achieve what you apparently wanted. At some point a few players even begged you to not release U35 as it is.

You still did this to us. As if you needed to fight us for some reason. Shouldnt a healthy MMO be a Devs+Players relationship? Because right now it feels like a Devs VERSUS Player Battle.
My Friend list is nearly dead, so are the Guilds im in. I also miss my Jabs.... i dont know how i deserve to have my jabs ripped away and have them replaced with a copy of a nighthollow staff made into a shovel of light. Can i at least have my Jabs back please?

The Forums are filled with bad experiences, dissapointment, even grief. It happened exactly what so many people predicted and i just cannot understand why you pulled through with this. Why did you do this?

At the moment i have absolutely no motivation to do anything in ESO and until things are fixed (if ever) ill play another well known MMO. The community there isnt very nice but at least i dont feel like im an enemy of the Development Team there. Quite the opposite.

I really, really hope you learn to see us as individuals again that loved what you created at some point, if not that, maybe you learn to at least see us as costumers again.

We are not your Enemies.

My personal opinion is; ZOS is a company, it has a schedule and a strategy. Whether those points are player-friendly or not, they need to push it knowing from the past that every bad upgrade will be eventually "accepted" by most of the ESO community. In time, ZOS will change all over again.

I should remind you that a very decent part of ESO community simply don't care or don't understand what is going on. They don't perceive the changes as "bad", really. Mostly, they don't understand the number or statistics.

For the point of view of the company, most of the players will still keeping buying in-game sales, crowns, etc. The money will still flow. So, it's not that they are "fighting us" per se. ZOS simply deal with the acquiescence -- in time -- of the majority of ESO's consumer players.

That's it.

rexagamemnon · August 2022

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

I think some players are over reacting over this update, there will be more updates and changes in the future, this is not the end of the world.

As a USMC 0331, we train to Improvise, Adapt and Overcome and that's what I intend to do here.

Cheers!

You sound like you just graduated ITB 😂.
Everyone can improvise adapt and overcome. Thats why new metas are achieved every update since launch. But the constant updates are exhausting [snip]

[edited for bashing]