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Order's Wrath in no CP - anyone knows?
mzprx
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howdy folks, does anyone know if the Order's Wrath set works in no CP now? could anyone who already has the set test it? or has anyone tested it yet? it should work in no CP, as it's no proc set, but AFAIK it wasn't in the previous patch..
1
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Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am pretty sure it should work. At least I don't see why it shouldn't.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
mzprx✭✭✭✭✭I am pretty sure it should work. At least I don't see why it shouldn't.
i don't see that either, but it didn't work in the last patch. for whatever reason. same as Heartland Conqueror, when it came out it didn't work either. now it works. i was kind of hoping for the same treatment of the Order's Wrath. but ZOS decideth it wasn't meant to be. instead they gave us a new spear for Templars..Edited by mzprx on August 26, 2022 11:04AM2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am pretty sure it should work. At least I don't see why it shouldn't.
i don't see that either, but it didn't work in the last patch. for whatever reason. same as Heartland Conqueror, when it came out it didn't work either. now it works. i was kind of hoping for the same treatment of the Order's Wrath. but ZOS decideth it wasn't meant to be. instead they gave us a new spear for Templars..
I can see why Heartland Conqueror wouldn't work, because that's not exactly just a flat stat increase effect as it does different things depending on your weapon trait. Order's Wrath is just stats though and if Medusa is enabled in noCP, which it is, there shouldn't be any reason for Order's Wrath to be disabled. Perhaps ZOS simply hasn't updated the list of allowed sets to include them?This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
wolfsilver00✭✭✭The fact that people need to ask this in the forums, and that new players probably dont even know about how this all works, is just another *** problem ZoS needs to solve with some in-game text..
As for why orders doesnt work and medusas does, only they know, dont ask correlation between ZoS decisions, thats not how they roll, they probably literally roll to see if they do or not do something, leave it all to rnjesus6 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I can see why Heartland Conqueror wouldn't work, because that's not exactly just a flat stat increase effect as it does different things depending on your weapon trait. Order's Wrath is just stats though and if Medusa is enabled in noCP, which it is, there shouldn't be any reason for Order's Wrath to be disabled. Perhaps ZOS simply hasn't updated the list of allowed sets to include them?
ZOS' criteria for which sets work and which don't, are becoming ever more obscure as time goes on. Or in other words, they more or less abandoned the whole no-proc idea half-way through, with updates to the set list coming at random, if at all.
Order's Wrath doesn't work but shouldn't. Pariah's shouldn't but does. HLC changed status at some point for no apparent reason at all. And still, ZOS can't be bothered to publish (let alone update) a comprehensive list of sets, to indicate in-game whether a set works or not, or to tell players the no-proc viability of new sets when they come out.
Together with Alliance Lock, it was topic of the day for a while. It garnered some good press for a few weeks. After that, the idea was not in focus any more, and was slowly left to rot, half-finished. No-Proc would need constant attention, updates, and development resources - which clearly aren't devoted to it any more. The main difference is that Alliance Lock is just there, so players don't notice it as much.Edited by Varana on August 26, 2022 12:27PM2 -
Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Order's Wrath doesn't work? But it's not a proc. Neither is Heartland Conqueror.
Order's Wrath, Heartland Conqueror etc. should be the kinds of sets you want to use in No CP. It makes no sense and is so frustrating that they don't work.
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virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Holycannoli wrote: »Order's Wrath doesn't work? But it's not a proc. Neither is Heartland Conqueror.
Order's Wrath, Heartland Conqueror etc. should be the kinds of sets you want to use in No CP. It makes no sense and is so frustrating that they don't work.
ZOS defines proc as anything that is not adding or subtracting a flat stat. If the server has to use percentages, check if a named buff is already applied, check an “if” condition (e.g. if you’re using training, add more training, but if you’re using sharpened, add more pen), etc., that’s a proc set, per the Combat Lead:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p1
They rewrote some proc sets to work in No CP so we wouldn’t be limited to the 19 sets in game that fit their definition of no proc.
Order’s Wrath at first seems like an odd omission to me, since it involves a percentage but that percentage never changes and is just being added to the critical damage stat. Perhaps it’s because of the critical damage cap, which presumably means that the game has to check if you’re at the cap in order to decide if and how much crit damage it should add.0 -
AinSoph✭✭✭✭✭Holycannoli wrote: »Order's Wrath doesn't work? But it's not a proc. Neither is Heartland Conqueror.
Order's Wrath, Heartland Conqueror etc. should be the kinds of sets you want to use in No CP. It makes no sense and is so frustrating that they don't work.
ZOS defines proc as anything that is not adding or subtracting a flat stat. If the server has to use percentages, check if a named buff is already applied, check an “if” condition (e.g. if you’re using training, add more training, but if you’re using sharpened, add more pen), etc., that’s a proc set, per the Combat Lead:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p1
They rewrote some proc sets to work in No CP so we wouldn’t be limited to the 19 sets in game that fit their definition of no proc.
Order’s Wrath at first seems like an odd omission to me, since it involves a percentage but that percentage never changes and is just being added to the critical damage stat. Perhaps it’s because of the critical damage cap, which presumably means that the game has to check if you’re at the cap in order to decide if and how much crit damage it should add.
Apparently, any set that has to check for a condition driven by an ability is considered a proc which is probably the worst definition for it bc pretty much the whole community referred to the more problematic procs as sets that give a large amount of free damage with a small cooldown.0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Holycannoli wrote: »Order's Wrath doesn't work? But it's not a proc. Neither is Heartland Conqueror.
Order's Wrath, Heartland Conqueror etc. should be the kinds of sets you want to use in No CP. It makes no sense and is so frustrating that they don't work.
ZOS defines proc as anything that is not adding or subtracting a flat stat. If the server has to use percentages, check if a named buff is already applied, check an “if” condition (e.g. if you’re using training, add more training, but if you’re using sharpened, add more pen), etc., that’s a proc set, per the Combat Lead:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p1
They rewrote some proc sets to work in No CP so we wouldn’t be limited to the 19 sets in game that fit their definition of no proc.
Order’s Wrath at first seems like an odd omission to me, since it involves a percentage but that percentage never changes and is just being added to the critical damage stat. Perhaps it’s because of the critical damage cap, which presumably means that the game has to check if you’re at the cap in order to decide if and how much crit damage it should add.
Apparently, any set that has to check for a condition driven by an ability is considered a proc which is probably the worst definition for it bc pretty much the whole community referred to the more problematic procs as sets that give a large amount of free damage with a small cooldown.
This isn't entirely true, as in the case of Pariah.
That set is constantly querying the server for your current HP% in order to scale the set's buff. Now, if that doesn't sound like the very epitome of a "proc" then I don't know what does, haha. It's insane that Pariah works in Ravenwatch.2 -
Dawnblade✭✭✭✭✭Just more backward coding by ZOS with logic that cannot be easily explained to an average rational person.
Is it any wonder many players don't even bother trying to optimize when things that should be simple and straightforward are anything but, and seem totally at the whim of some random ZOS decision or old code?1 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Holycannoli wrote: »Order's Wrath doesn't work? But it's not a proc. Neither is Heartland Conqueror.
Order's Wrath, Heartland Conqueror etc. should be the kinds of sets you want to use in No CP. It makes no sense and is so frustrating that they don't work.
ZOS defines proc as anything that is not adding or subtracting a flat stat. If the server has to use percentages, check if a named buff is already applied, check an “if” condition (e.g. if you’re using training, add more training, but if you’re using sharpened, add more pen), etc., that’s a proc set, per the Combat Lead:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p1
They rewrote some proc sets to work in No CP so we wouldn’t be limited to the 19 sets in game that fit their definition of no proc.
Order’s Wrath at first seems like an odd omission to me, since it involves a percentage but that percentage never changes and is just being added to the critical damage stat. Perhaps it’s because of the critical damage cap, which presumably means that the game has to check if you’re at the cap in order to decide if and how much crit damage it should add.
Apparently, any set that has to check for a condition driven by an ability is considered a proc which is probably the worst definition for it bc pretty much the whole community referred to the more problematic procs as sets that give a large amount of free damage with a small cooldown.
Yes, the way the community uses the term does not usually line up with the way ZOS does. That’s part of why a lot of people were taken quite aback by the fact that only 19 sets were fully operational when the no-proc ruleset went into effect.
ZOS originally implemented the no-proc ruleset as part of a number of tests designed to see how they could improve performance. There were other components being tested as well, such as group size limits and limiting abilities like healing and buffs to group members instead of any nearby allies. They eventually said they determined that nothing had a substantial enough impact on performance to warrant being implemented permanently for that reason, but they permanently lowered group caps to 12 due to “behavioral changes” they liked and initially kept the no-proc ruleset under the impression that the playerbase wanted it. Once they realized that “the playerbase” wasn’t unanimous in that regard, they gave us proc and no-proc options, updating some sets so they could try to give us a no-proc ruleset that more closely aligned with what players felt to be procs (so no to free damage or cc like Dark Convergence, Plaguebreak, Vicious Death, Caluurion’s, but yes to extensions of stat bonuses like Seducer’s, New Moon Acolyte, Deadly Strike).2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I had no idea that either of these sets were inactive in no CP. Come on ZOS, how hard is to put something in the item tooltip that says "Disabled in No CP environments"?!?!Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on August 26, 2022 5:59PM3 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I had no idea that either of these sets were inactive in no CP. Come on ZOS, how hard is to put something in the item tooltip that says "Disabled in No CP environments"?!?!
It would be great if they could add some way of signaling this.
The difference in how players and ZOS use the term “proc” is one thing, but a lot of the current confusion and frustration (six quarters after they first introduced no-proc as a concept) could have been avoided had ZOS taken the care to ensure their no-proc set list was accurate and kept up to date.0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ZOS defines proc as anything that is not adding or subtracting a flat stat. If the server has to use percentages, check if a named buff is already applied, check an “if” condition (e.g. if you’re using training, add more training, but if you’re using sharpened, add more pen), etc., that’s a proc set, per the Combat Lead... Order’s Wrath at first seems like an odd omission to me, since it involves a percentage but that percentage never changes and is just being added to the critical damage stat. Perhaps it’s because of the critical damage cap, which presumably means that the game has to check if you’re at the cap in order to decide if and how much crit damage it should add.Apparently, any set that has to check for a condition driven by an ability is considered a proc which is probably the worst definition for it bc pretty much the whole community referred to the more problematic procs as sets that give a large amount of free damage with a small cooldown.
As YandereGirlfriend said, they're not consistent with this.
There are a lot of sets that have a condition (while/if something happens, do X). Like Ancient Dragonguard or Eternal Vigor (add X if you're over / under 50% health). Or Trial by Fire (triggering while under an Elemental Status Effect).
There are also quite a few sets that give named bonuses - most infamously, Oakensoul.
The only combination that actually doesn't seem to appear, is giving a named buff depending on a condition. And there's no set that directly procs a damage effect. (There are many that increase your damage done, or give weapon/spell damage, depending on sometimes very specific conditions, though.)
But that is a very strange and specific interpretation of "proc set".
As for Order's Wrath, the crit bonus can't be the culprit. Titanborn works and not only also gives a crit bonus, it does so combined with several conditions to be checked (higher crit damage depending on health thresholds). ZOS simply forgot to add the set to the list.
Which isn't too surprising, because I highly doubt that ZOS actually has a comprehensive list.3 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Check out the list caperguy made here on the forums. Just Google no cp list eso forums caperguyPC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden0 -
CaperGuy✭✭✭I do what I can. @ZOS_Kevin did at one point suggest that he was going to get an official list out there but I haven’t seen anything about the subject in awhile.Characters:
Trivalaur - Breton Templar(Healer)1 -
Finedaible✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭As far as I remember New Moon Acolyte was also considered a proc despite being pure stats unless they enabled it. Which has me wondering how they go about coding Imperial's ability cost reduction and other passives. One would think ability cost efficiency is a stat but who knows when stuff like this happens.0 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS defines proc as anything that is not adding or subtracting a flat stat. If the server has to use percentages, check if a named buff is already applied, check an “if” condition (e.g. if you’re using training, add more training, but if you’re using sharpened, add more pen), etc., that’s a proc set, per the Combat Lead... Order’s Wrath at first seems like an odd omission to me, since it involves a percentage but that percentage never changes and is just being added to the critical damage stat. Perhaps it’s because of the critical damage cap, which presumably means that the game has to check if you’re at the cap in order to decide if and how much crit damage it should add.Apparently, any set that has to check for a condition driven by an ability is considered a proc which is probably the worst definition for it bc pretty much the whole community referred to the more problematic procs as sets that give a large amount of free damage with a small cooldown.
As YandereGirlfriend said, they're not consistent with this.
There are a lot of sets that have a condition (while/if something happens, do X). Like Ancient Dragonguard or Eternal Vigor (add X if you're over / under 50% health). Or Trial by Fire (triggering while under an Elemental Status Effect).
There are also quite a few sets that give named bonuses - most infamously, Oakensoul.
The only combination that actually doesn't seem to appear, is giving a named buff depending on a condition. And there's no set that directly procs a damage effect. (There are many that increase your damage done, or give weapon/spell damage, depending on sometimes very specific conditions, though.)
But that is a very strange and specific interpretation of "proc set".
As for Order's Wrath, the crit bonus can't be the culprit. Titanborn works and not only also gives a crit bonus, it does so combined with several conditions to be checked (higher crit damage depending on health thresholds). ZOS simply forgot to add the set to the list.
Which isn't too surprising, because I highly doubt that ZOS actually has a comprehensive list.
They are consistent about their definition of proc. They have been manually and individually recoding proc sets by their definition to meet no-proc coding rulesets so we’re not limited to 19 fully functional sets.
What they’re not consistent about is which sets get this treatment.0
