is the Skill Gap becoming greater or lesser than before?
ForzaRammer
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Hybrid meta last year and now this dot nerf all supposed to be lowering the skill gap.
But the skill gap between median and top 1% was much lower from morrowind to summerset, compare to now.
Skill gap was smaller simply because sustain was bad, heavy attack was good, dots were good, people often casted <0.85 skill every second on average instead of >0.95.
Hybrid is more sustain by design because players can utilize both regen, plus weak dots, there is no way heavy attack builds can be good.
<edited title to focus on Skill Gap>
Edited by ZOS_Hadeostry on August 22, 2022 7:08PM But the skill gap between median and top 1% was much lower from morrowind to summerset, compare to now.
Skill gap was smaller simply because sustain was bad, heavy attack was good, dots were good, people often casted <0.85 skill every second on average instead of >0.95.
Hybrid is more sustain by design because players can utilize both regen, plus weak dots, there is no way heavy attack builds can be good.
<edited title to focus on Skill Gap>
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prof_doom✭✭✭✭✭Skill gap hasn't really changed.
The fact that damage went down about 20% and the boss health only went down about 10% means that if you weren't doing enough damage to clear Vet content before the update, you definitely still aren't, and anyone who was on the edge probably now can't do it either.20 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skill gap hasn't really changed.
The fact that damage went down about 20% and the boss health only went down about 10% means that if you weren't doing enough damage to clear Vet content before the update, you definitely still aren't, and anyone who was on the edge probably now can't do it either.
Zos changed my title. I am very certain skill gap is way bigger than 5 years ago. And this post is not even supposed to focus on just this patch7 -
prof_doom✭✭✭✭✭Ahh.
Well, then yes, the skill gap has continued to widen.
The content keeps getting balanced around the top 1-5% of DPS, while they continuously attempt to decrease the amount of overall damage.
And as I said, this patch didn't help that in the slightest.8 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ahh.
Well, then yes, the skill gap has continued to widen.
The content keeps getting balanced around the top 1-5% of DPS, while they continuously attempt to decrease the amount of overall damage.
And as I said, this patch didn't help that in the slightest.
My original title was questioning rather zos intent to lower skill gap in the first place1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »Ahh.
Well, then yes, the skill gap has continued to widen.
The content keeps getting balanced around the top 1-5% of DPS, while they continuously attempt to decrease the amount of overall damage.
And as I said, this patch didn't help that in the slightest.
My original title was questioning rather zos intent to lower skill gap in the first place
Its kinda sad, in a 1984 sort of way.11 -
prof_doom✭✭✭✭✭I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I think that it was at least part of the goals, but as people have been pointing out since the first week of the PTS, what was proposed was never really going to work.
I've never personally understood why it is that all MMOs end up obsessed with decreasing max damage.
If it's an issue of hitting some kind of integer overflow, just knock a zero off of every number and you've fixed it without changing combat.
I can't imagine it's a performance thing... what's it matter how big the numbers are?
I suppose the whole every other second thing might have been an attempt to reduce the number of calls to/from the server, but again, it was never completely thought through. If the boss mechanics had just been slowed down to scale with the timing of player actions, then it could have worked, though I'm not sure doubling the length of every single fight would've been all that enjoyable.
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FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would consider the skill Gap is far greater now. I honestly don't want to play with average player this update.
For one the mechanics matter a lot more for these people than they did last patch and hardly anyone knows them.
Top players have already adapted or are farming gear to adapt. The average player won't change a thing and get worse.
I sincerely believe we will see on future more threads about kicking each other like we did a few years backEdited by FeedbackOnly on August 22, 2022 9:19PM9 -
Klingenlied✭✭✭✭Hmm. I guess there will be a very, very slight decrease in "skill gap". This is mainly due to people will see less impact of bad weaving and uptime of damage over time abilities.
However! This slight skill gap decrease comes with added inaccessibility of some PvE content. Every player that did struggle with Arenas will have a way harder time now. Same for players that just started with soloing content like world bosses.
For some raid or dungeon parties, well, at least some progress they may have made during the last few weeks will feel like after a "soft reset" - because players in parts need to relearn rotations and need to deal with lower dps in general. Most will manage though.
Anyway, one of the brutal realities of this patch will likely be: Getting into raiding will be as hard as never before.4 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭Skill gap definitely widened. Skill timers are all over the place now. Rotations are more complicated and lower damage means you gotta deal with mechanics longer. Alot of pugs have no business going in vet content anymore. So much for accessibility.6 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Klingenlied wrote: »Hmm. I guess there will be a very, very slight decrease in "skill gap". This is mainly due to people will see less impact of bad weaving and uptime of damage over time abilities.
However! This slight skill gap decrease comes with added inaccessibility of some PvE content. Every player that did struggle with Arenas will have a way harder time now. Same for players that just started with soloing content like world bosses.
For some raid or dungeon parties, well, at least some progress they may have made during the last few weeks will feel like after a "soft reset" - because players in parts need to relearn rotations and need to deal with lower dps in general. Most will manage though.
Anyway, one of the brutal realities of this patch will likely be: Getting into raiding will be as hard as never before.
Added inaccessiblity means higher skill gap0 -
FluffWit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Ahh.
Well, then yes, the skill gap has continued to widen.
The content keeps getting balanced around the top 1-5% of DPS, while they continuously attempt to decrease the amount of overall damage.
And as I said, this patch didn't help that in the slightest.
My original title was questioning rather zos intent to lower skill gap in the first place
Its kinda sad, in a 1984 sort of way.
@ZOS_Hadeostry
You've done this to me before too. Either delete or lock our topics if they're violating the rules. Changing what we said to what you think we wanted to say is kinda creepy.15 -
Klingenlied✭✭✭✭FeedbackOnly wrote: »Klingenlied wrote: »Hmm. I guess there will be a very, very slight decrease in "skill gap". This is mainly due to people will see less impact of bad weaving and uptime of damage over time abilities.
However! This slight skill gap decrease comes with added inaccessibility of some PvE content. Every player that did struggle with Arenas will have a way harder time now. Same for players that just started with soloing content like world bosses.
For some raid or dungeon parties, well, at least some progress they may have made during the last few weeks will feel like after a "soft reset" - because players in parts need to relearn rotations and need to deal with lower dps in general. Most will manage though.
Anyway, one of the brutal realities of this patch will likely be: Getting into raiding will be as hard as never before.
Added inaccessibility means higher skill gap
Nope. Gap is between players. What you mean is that the skill cap for being able to clear specific content has been increased. That is correct. But in regards to the playerbase as a whole when we just take in dps performance in numbers, skill gap did not get higher - but instead, as explained above, slightly lowered.
The issue is that achieving one at the cost of the other overall did not only achieve nothing, but pretty much is a net loss. The game got harder for almost everyone, it's just that some will realize so way less then others.1 -
Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think people are severely understating the effect that longer ability timers is going to have on the skill gap. It can easily lead to the floor raising substantially, aiding players with lower APM.
A lot of players never had high APM to begin with, Those players will have overall higher DPS. And so will players that forced themselves to play high APM without being comfortable, leading to them fumbling and missing ability timers and rotations.Edited by Marto on August 23, 2022 4:07AM"According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"0 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Klingenlied wrote: »FeedbackOnly wrote: »Klingenlied wrote: »Hmm. I guess there will be a very, very slight decrease in "skill gap". This is mainly due to people will see less impact of bad weaving and uptime of damage over time abilities.
However! This slight skill gap decrease comes with added inaccessibility of some PvE content. Every player that did struggle with Arenas will have a way harder time now. Same for players that just started with soloing content like world bosses.
For some raid or dungeon parties, well, at least some progress they may have made during the last few weeks will feel like after a "soft reset" - because players in parts need to relearn rotations and need to deal with lower dps in general. Most will manage though.
Anyway, one of the brutal realities of this patch will likely be: Getting into raiding will be as hard as never before.
Added inaccessibility means higher skill gap
Nope. Gap is between players. What you mean is that the skill cap for being able to clear specific content has been increased. That is correct. But in regards to the playerbase as a whole when we just take in dps performance in numbers, skill gap did not get higher - but instead, as explained above, slightly lowered.
The issue is that achieving one at the cost of the other overall did not only achieve nothing, but pretty much is a net loss. The game got harder for almost everyone, it's just that some will realize so way less then others.
Not just harder but less engaging and funEdited by FeedbackOnly on August 23, 2022 4:15AM1 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think people are severely understating the effect that longer ability timers is going to have on the skill gap. It can easily lead to the floor raising substantially, aiding players with lower APM.
A lot of players never had high APM to begin with, Those players will have overall higher DPS. And so will players that forced themselves to play high APM without being comfortable, leading to them fumbling and missing ability timers and rotations.
They would have to want to improve first. Most people aren't to swap everything up after a patch. There's no guidance so people are hitting like 10 I now.
They will be kicked more often then every before1 -
Enundr✭✭✭FeedbackOnly wrote: »I would consider the skill Gap is far greater now. I honestly don't want to play with average player this update.
For one the mechanics matter a lot more for these people than they did last patch and hardly anyone knows them.
Top players have already adapted or are farming gear to adapt. The average player won't change a thing and get worse.
I sincerely believe we will see on future more threads about kicking each other like we did a few years back
and thats ironic since their "vision" was to make this more accessible and all that stuff , when in reality theyve clearly done the opposite XD they were told this is what they were doing and to not put the combat updates out and they still did anyway....they lose a good amount of players and subs over this and they have only themselves to blame when blame starts going around from their higher ups. They could have not rolled out the combat changes and avoided this and kept the players while also showing they genuinely listened , instead we got knee jerk reaction changes instead.1 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Skill gap hasn't really changed.
The fact that damage went down about 20% and the boss health only went down about 10% means that if you weren't doing enough damage to clear Vet content before the update, you definitely still aren't, and anyone who was on the edge probably now can't do it either.
I mean you just basically said "skill gap increased" after saying it hasn't. If you were able to do end-game content well, you can still do end game content. If you were on the edge, now you can't. That's a skill gap increase.Edited by merpins on August 23, 2022 5:41AM4 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I was on the edge. I just made the cut to do vet and older vet HM trials.
Now I no longer make the cut.
Yes, if you were able to keep up with complex, dynamic rotations with 5 dots wearing two sets that require micro-managing stacks before U35 you will still make the cut. It won't be pleasant but it will still be feasible.
Myself who relied on simpler, static rotations and classes that are simpler to play - stamplar/magplar/madgen in my case - wearing sets that are easier to manage I am facing a really uphill 'git good' climb until I can go back to what I was doing up until U34.
The issue is I have to honestly reflect on whether is worth doing this, and whether I am in fact capable of doing this.
I still don't have an answer so I had to put my accounts on 'maintenance mode' until I do.
I should disengage from the forums and eso communities too because my monkey brain keeps seeking answers and solace where none can be found.
The devs have done what the devs have done and no one can change that. Either I learn to live with it or I move back to an environment where if something that is unpalatable is released I can go into the development environment, say: No, thank you!, and change it.Edited by ApoAlaia on August 23, 2022 6:02AM0 -
Amphithoe✭✭✭✭✭Yeah this update made the gap a far bit wider. Two of my friends who started playing during the pandemic have moved on and have given indications that they wont ever return.
I'll still play, I love the questing, the exploration and the world itself. But I have no ambitions of ever getting in to the "real" end-game of ESO.Guildmaster: School of Julianos1 -
Rowjoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can't 'lower' the skill of someone who is already skilled in something.
What's happening in ESO is that the devs are making things easier for those that are not so skilled.
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ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think people are severely understating the effect that longer ability timers is going to have on the skill gap. It can easily lead to the floor raising substantially, aiding players with lower APM.
A lot of players never had high APM to begin with, Those players will have overall higher DPS. And so will players that forced themselves to play high APM without being comfortable, leading to them fumbling and missing ability timers and rotations.
Eh no, dots and heavy attacks patches (morrowind to summerset) were the lowest skill gap patches, a lot good builds required like 80 apm.
Light attack + spammable skill requires way more apm (100+)
Also the game should not be designed for the bottom 10%, it should be designed for the median.Edited by ForzaRammer on August 25, 2022 12:09AM1 -
DizzyMac✭✭✭You can't 'lower' the skill of someone who is already skilled in something.
What's happening in ESO is that the devs are making things easier for those that are not so skilled.
how does it make things easier?
skills nerfed, proc sets nerfed, timers added to skills, additional 10% damage decreased, some passives nerfed, some CP bonuses nerfed - all while only reducing some bosses by 10% ....
a fair bit to work around for those of us who have been playing a long time, but an absolute disaster for the "not so skilled" to try to navigate4