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ZOS - from a Disabled person playing normal content, where's the promised accessibility with U35?
nokturnihs
✭✭✭✭
Hey ZOS,
I'm a casual player, mainly sticking with overland content, normal and (some) vet dungeons and doing the maelstrom arena. I've been playing since launch and am disabled, with coordination issues that make weaving... challenging....
So.... Accessibility???
All I see is that my DPS dropped about 33% and now I'm crushing my hands doing twice as much work as I was before with overland groups... I'm not sure where the accessibility is? I see you reduced veteran dungeon boss health by 10% and as far as I can tell the high APM players are still gonna have ridiculously better performance compared to us low APM players so.... where's the accessibility?
You're pushing heavy attacks over light, you've nerfed the crap out of 2h builds of any kind, and overall damage output is lower while the ONLY change to mob difficulty is in areas that already require more than some casual players (or disabled people) can handle smoothly.
I play on PC using a controller to make the game PLAYABLE with my crippled up hands and as far as "accessibility" all this feels like is stretching the gap between high APM and low APM, punishing normal content/quest/overland players for playing that content because PVP is broken (and PvP is NEVER gonna be balanced with how you handle things ATM).
Please tell me what I'm missing? How'd this make the game more approachable to new players, disabled players, casual players? What did it do for accessibility other than force people to grind longer at the same tasks they were before?
You could have implemented a system to meter the high APM players by having a Scaling cooldown on the global cooldown on activations or simply discard weaving in general.... instead we get almost across the board nerfs with some bones thrown specifically at vet/endgame players and the PvP crowd. While I'm happy for them, I'm wondering if your messaging is off, you don't understand the casual players gameplay loops or you're intentionally trying to push out the filthy casuals who enjoy rolling through zones and completing side quests to favor the repetitive grind mechanic of dungeons/trials and PvP???
Frustrating to be sure... either way if it was a sincere push for accessibility with update 35, I'm sorry to say it's quite a failure in that regard...
I'm a casual player, mainly sticking with overland content, normal and (some) vet dungeons and doing the maelstrom arena. I've been playing since launch and am disabled, with coordination issues that make weaving... challenging....
So.... Accessibility???
All I see is that my DPS dropped about 33% and now I'm crushing my hands doing twice as much work as I was before with overland groups... I'm not sure where the accessibility is? I see you reduced veteran dungeon boss health by 10% and as far as I can tell the high APM players are still gonna have ridiculously better performance compared to us low APM players so.... where's the accessibility?
You're pushing heavy attacks over light, you've nerfed the crap out of 2h builds of any kind, and overall damage output is lower while the ONLY change to mob difficulty is in areas that already require more than some casual players (or disabled people) can handle smoothly.
I play on PC using a controller to make the game PLAYABLE with my crippled up hands and as far as "accessibility" all this feels like is stretching the gap between high APM and low APM, punishing normal content/quest/overland players for playing that content because PVP is broken (and PvP is NEVER gonna be balanced with how you handle things ATM).
Please tell me what I'm missing? How'd this make the game more approachable to new players, disabled players, casual players? What did it do for accessibility other than force people to grind longer at the same tasks they were before?
You could have implemented a system to meter the high APM players by having a Scaling cooldown on the global cooldown on activations or simply discard weaving in general.... instead we get almost across the board nerfs with some bones thrown specifically at vet/endgame players and the PvP crowd. While I'm happy for them, I'm wondering if your messaging is off, you don't understand the casual players gameplay loops or you're intentionally trying to push out the filthy casuals who enjoy rolling through zones and completing side quests to favor the repetitive grind mechanic of dungeons/trials and PvP???
Frustrating to be sure... either way if it was a sincere push for accessibility with update 35, I'm sorry to say it's quite a failure in that regard...
135
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Cyber10✭✭✭✭It seems that they missed the mark on the intended purpose of U35. We told them, but they didn't listen.101
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MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So the goals were accessibility *and* reducing the "damage bloat". When push came to shove it's easy to see what the priority was and it wasn't accessibility.
PS5/NA48 -
SirLeeMinion✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with your thoughts, OP. Until they get things sorted, I've noticed this works pretty well:
Oakensoul (mythic)
Noble duelest silks (from Blessed Crucible)
Sergeant's Mail (from Wayrest sewers)
1 piece slimecraw (from wayrest sewers)
on a sorc with
unstable wall
daedric prey
caltrops
unstable familiar (ignore or replace with matriarch for self heal)
any fighter's guild skill for the passive (ignore this button)
atronach (activate as it's ready)
and lover mundus
On live, it yields about 30k on the 3M / 6M dummy by basically holding down heavy attack and pressing wall, prey, caltrops, prey, wall, prey etc...and a bit under 60K on the 21M dummy. About 2/3 of that damage is the heavy attack, so it's pretty tolerant of missing a skill activation here and there. I'm sure others already have something better but I'm using this until they post their builds.20 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They wanted to correct the high damage top end was doing. They were just using accessibility as an excuse. It's obvious based on the decisions of this patch that don't do anything to help accessibility. Not only did they nerf everyone pretty equally across the board by 20-40%, but they also nerfed the only accessibility item into obscurity at the same time.
Either that or they genuinely thought nerfing everyone would help with accessibility. Which I mean anyone could tell you isn't going to be the case.
[snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 23, 2022 1:19PM56 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SirLeeMinion wrote: »I agree with your thoughts, OP. Until they get things sorted, I've noticed this works pretty well:
Oakensoul (mythic)
Noble duelest silks (from Blessed Crucible)
Sergeant's Mail (from Wayrest sewers)
1 piece slimecraw (from wayrest sewers)
on a sorc with
unstable wall
daedric prey
caltrops
unstable familiar (ignore or replace with matriarch for self heal)
any fighter's guild skill for the passive (ignore this button)
atronach (activate as it's ready)
and lover mundus
On live, it yields about 30k on the 3M / 6M dummy by basically holding down heavy attack and pressing wall, prey, caltrops, prey, wall, prey etc...and a bit under 60K on the 21M dummy. About 2/3 of that damage is the heavy attack, so it's pretty tolerant of missing a skill activation here and there. I'm sure others already have something better but I'm using this until they post their builds.
Here's another one.
Breton Sorcerer. Thief Mundus
All stamina, including glyphs.
double daggers, nirn + charged poison and fire glyphs.
Oakensoul + Slimecraw Shoulder (light) + 5 piece Pillars of Nirn (ring neck, head pants shirt) + 5 piece Order's Wrath (daggers, light gloves shoes belt).
Crystal Fragments + Daedric Prey + Bound Armaments + Clannifer + Twilight Tormentor + single target Atronach
Tripots and Candied Jester's Coins food.
You'll deal 38-40k dps on the 3mil dummy. You'll also have 13k max magicka and your main stat you'll be using to attack is magicka, but your damage comes from max stamina. So long as you keep your potions up on cooldown and light attack weave decently well (you don't need to be perfect), you'll have fantastic sustain and never need to worry about running out despite having such low max magicka. Before the update, it dealt 50k dps on the 3mil dummy.Edited by merpins on August 23, 2022 12:34AM7 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seems rather insensitive to make less abled people have to work 20-40% harder to kill the same mobs. They could have put a damage cap on the segment that they were concerned about, and given the lower tier players some tools to make life easier. But priorities are priorities, and I’m sure they are happy with the update they released.27 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They wanted to correct the high damage top end was doing. They were just using accessibility as an excuse. It's obvious based on the decisions of this patch that don't do anything to help accessibility. Not only did they nerf everyone pretty equally across the board by 20-40%, but they also nerfed the only accessibility item into obscurity at the same time.
Either that or they genuinely thought nerfing everyone would help with accessibility. Which I mean anyone could tell you isn't going to be the case.
[snip]
Definitely seems like an excuse now
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 23, 2022 1:22PM17 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seems rather insensitive to make less abled people have to work 20-40% harder to kill the same mobs. They could have put a damage cap on the segment that they were concerned about, and given the lower tier players some tools to make life easier. But priorities are priorities, and I’m sure they are happy with the update they released.
That would of made more sense10 -
GreatGildersleeve✭✭✭✭The term accessibility has a couple of different connotations. Most people took it to mean making content more available to those with disabilities or challenges playing. ZoS appears to have taken it as making more content ‘available’ to more players (and therefor accessible).
Unfortunately, although I’m a console player and have no proof other than forum discussions, ZoS seems to have missed the mark with both interpretations. Content doesn’t seem any more available to lower end dps, and you’re proof that it’s not any more accessible to disabled players.18 -
Bat✭✭✭✭✭
✭I feel stupid for having believed them when they said their intention was to increase accessibility. It just seems now their only plan was to make everyone have a much more tedious and sluggish time in challenging content for no discernible reason. Hands becoming all cramped up because fights drag on forever and ever and heals are so bad people just keep dying to nonsense and causing wipes left and right. This patch makes absolutely no sense.39 -
festegios✭✭✭✭Seems rather insensitive to make less abled people have to work 20-40% harder to kill the same mobs. They could have put a damage cap on the segment that they were concerned about, and given the lower tier players some tools to make life easier. But priorities are priorities, and I’m sure they are happy with the update they released.
The issue with a damage cap is that some end game content requires a minimum dps threshold. Removing that requirement then doesn’t make it ‘end game’ anymore.2 -
Panachudo✭✭How person A interprets the word to person B to person C to person D to person E to person F is going to be different. Unfortunately we live in an age wherein wording has to be carefully crafted. Otherwise the risk of misinterpretation runs foul. Accessibility has more than one interpretation. Your interpretation was X due to likely having Y motivators. Hers was B, and his was G. My interpretation is that accessibility is referencing the quality of being easier to obtain. In this particular instance, lowering the ceiling and raising the floor. But I'm simply person M in a diverse world of interpretations. Interpret how you will but it's the hard truth.
Edited by Panachudo on August 23, 2022 2:34AM5 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seems rather insensitive to make less abled people have to work 20-40% harder to kill the same mobs. They could have put a damage cap on the segment that they were concerned about, and given the lower tier players some tools to make life easier. But priorities are priorities, and I’m sure they are happy with the update they released.
The issue with a damage cap is that some end game content requires a minimum dps threshold. Removing that requirement then doesn’t make it ‘end game’ anymore.
They said the purpose of the update was to “quell obscene damage numbers.” So they must think players are currently over capable of completing designed content. Or else why would they try to nerf everyone top to bottom?
Certainly the damage cap would be higher than what is necessary to complete the hardest content. But the way they addressed it, they seem to think players are doing too much damage as it is. We can’t look inside their heads to see the real reasons, but we can definitely draw conclusions based upon the actions they take.
Edited by Jaraal on August 23, 2022 3:06AM2 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I feel stupid for having believed them when they said their intention was to increase accessibility. It just seems now their only plan was to make everyone have a much more tedious and sluggish time in challenging content for no discernible reason. Hands becoming all cramped up because fights drag on forever and ever and heals are so bad people just keep dying to nonsense and causing wipes left and right. This patch makes absolutely no sense.
It's not duration that sucks but not engaging some fights are now. Some dungeons were built to be fast fights no are just tedious and not fun10 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SirLeeMinion wrote: »I agree with your thoughts, OP. Until they get things sorted, I've noticed this works pretty well:
Oakensoul (mythic)
Noble duelest silks (from Blessed Crucible)
Sergeant's Mail (from Wayrest sewers)
1 piece slimecraw (from wayrest sewers)
on a sorc with
unstable wall
daedric prey
caltrops
unstable familiar (ignore or replace with matriarch for self heal)
any fighter's guild skill for the passive (ignore this button)
atronach (activate as it's ready)
and lover mundus
On live, it yields about 30k on the 3M / 6M dummy by basically holding down heavy attack and pressing wall, prey, caltrops, prey, wall, prey etc...and a bit under 60K on the 21M dummy. About 2/3 of that damage is the heavy attack, so it's pretty tolerant of missing a skill activation here and there. I'm sure others already have something better but I'm using this until they post their builds.
I ran a similar build, I ran the fighters guild trap skill over caltrops for the additional damage (caltrops is better for solo play though due to the breach) and with an average rotation up time I was hitting 66k dps on the 21m dummy quite nicely.2 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It will be interesting when we are all playing different games and the catchphrase becomes “I hope these developers don’t do what ESO did before they shut down.”23 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I dont struggle with disability, but I will say this. The two easiest PVE classes to play since launch (mag sorc and mag templar), both just got harder to play.
In the world of "increasing DOT lengths to ease rotations," well, sorcs 6 second prey is now mandatory that you are near perfect with it. Recast to soon, you miss the boom. Recast too late, and your pets hit like a wet noodle.
In the world of "lets make LAs less impactful", well, now that sweeps is a true 0.8 second spammable, better not miss that LA weave because your jabs just got nerfed (this one is right out of the patch notes: "Reduced the overall damage of the primary attack by approximately 21% since this ability no longer incurs a DPS loss while weaving within the 1 second global cooldown window")
Solid Work.33 -
seventyfive✭✭✭Different players are looking for different things.
There's one game though, so not everyone is gonna be satisfied.
They could make drastic changes to seriously decrease the skill cap of the game to a point where the the only deciding factor who wins in pvp (or manages to complete hard pve content) is the team composition and the build, and where your gameplay has very little effect. That would be more accessible and a game that would be happily enjoyed by at most a quarter of the playerbase.
For the time being, you don't have to cast your dots as often (less micromanaging) and they are also more resources effective (less micromanaging of resources), on top of that, heavy attacking (easiest playstyle in the game) is more effective than before if you want to try that out every now and then. Notice the "if you want", some people make it seem like that's somehow forced upon people. If the content you are currently completing and want to continue completing is harder than what such a playstyle allows, that's a good thing - you are more skilled than you think you are, great! These are good changes for accessibility that don't challenge the entire premise of the game. Are they enough to completely level the playingfield between all players? No and they never will be, that's a very good thing for the games health, and negative for those who desire it.
Edited by seventyfive on August 23, 2022 7:03AM3 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭
exact numbers pls. If your dps droped from 70k to 47k, then it still ok. Though i suggest to test your DPS on 3 mil dummy, since now way you will get all those buffs in PUG dungeon.nokturnihs wrote: »All I see is that my DPS dropped about 33%
if your dps dropped from 10k to 7k, then i suggest to adjust your rotation - use meta spamables instead of LA and use 3 proc sets (for example: syvara scales + venom smite + skoria, so those sets will cast dots for you).Edited by mocap on August 23, 2022 7:46AM1 -
FluffyBird✭✭✭✭✭
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exact numbers pls. If your dps droped from 70k to 47k, then it still ok. Though i suggest to test your DPS on 3 mil dummy, since now way you will get all those buffs in PUG dungeon.nokturnihs wrote: »All I see is that my DPS dropped about 33%
if your dps dropped from 10k to 7k, then i suggest to adjust your rotation - use meta spamables instead of LA and use 3 proc sets (for example: syvara scales + venom smite + skoria, so those sets will cast dots for you).
70k to 47k is not OK.
And ZOS's goal was accessibility, so wet noodle LA spammer shouldn't have lost ANY damage at all, no?Edited by FluffyBird on August 23, 2022 9:12AM21 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It will be interesting when we are all playing different games and the catchphrase becomes “I hope these developers don’t do what ESO did before they shut down.”
I hope they catch there mistakes before then. Like realize it's live now and while not all a lot of people aren't having as fun.
We need new animations, content needs more adjustments, and remember games should still be fun4 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭
47k more than enough for any content, even some vet trials, if of course the group can give that many buffs.FluffyBird wrote: »70k to 47k is not OK.
And ZOS's goal was accessibility, so wet noodle LA spammer shouldn't have lost ANY damage at all, no?
And since we don't know real numbers/build/rotation of original poster (we have only emotions, as usual), we can only guess and give blind advice.2 -
PurpleScroll✭✭✭✭I'm also a disabled player, I play on a control pad (widespread arthritis so I am usually on strong painkillers). My damage tends to hover around 25k on all my characters, which is fine for overland content that I take part in. My damage is now around 20k and under on all characters. I don't understand how this is supposed to help me gain access to more difficult content.23 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭just made and test very simple HA build.
base gear:
- Elegant (Auridon drop, guilds shop)
- Noble Duelist (Blessed Crucible)
- your monster set/mythic/whatever
rotation:
- heavy attacks
3 mil parse, heavy attacks only, live server:
Edited by mocap on August 23, 2022 11:58AM2 -
Hvíthákarl✭✭✭Worst thing is how we'll be stuck with this botched update till Q4 when they release the story DLC. ZoS really should consider making an exception and releasing an update fixing this mess of a patch since it's been horrible for all, bus as OP noted this hits harder the disabled playerbase, which isn't a good thing and shouldn't be tolerated.7 -
FluffyBird✭✭✭✭✭
✭
47k more than enough for any content, even some vet trials, if of course the group can give that many buffs.FluffyBird wrote: »70k to 47k is not OK.
And ZOS's goal was accessibility, so wet noodle LA spammer shouldn't have lost ANY damage at all, no?
And since we don't know real numbers/build/rotation of original poster (we have only emotions, as usual), we can only guess and give blind advice.
It doesn't matter whether it's enough or not, this is unacceptably big loss.
And generally, update's main feeling should never be "I hope my build is still viable without severe changes". Main topic shouldn't be "how much damage did you lose?". If update is met with anxiety and worry instead of excitement and anticipation, it's a bad update.
If my build is wrecked, I won't be looking for a workaround. I won't be looking for a 22k on 3m, because I worked to get my 30k [snip]
I'll be looking for another hecking game.
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 23, 2022 2:21PM27 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭
this is how meta online games works:FluffyBird wrote: »If my build is wrecked, I won't be looking for a workaround. I won't be looking for a 22k on 3m, because I worked to get my 30k [snip]
Yesterday good
Today bad
Tomorrow good again
etc
I thought everyone knew that.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 23, 2022 2:21PM2 -
FluffyBird✭✭✭✭✭
✭
this is how meta online games works:FluffyBird wrote: »If my build is wrecked, I won't be looking for a workaround. I won't be looking for a 22k on 3m, because I worked to get my 30k [snip]
Yesterday good
Today bad
Tomorrow good again
etc
I thought everyone knew that.
It's not about meta, meta will change and top-tier players will be fine, they fine-tune every sneeze anyway. Though it seems even they are tired.
[snip]
If you like having your game constantly and aimlessly "shaken up" and broken, who am I to judge. But don't try to convince me that this is fine.
[edited for bashing & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 23, 2022 2:22PM23