U35 - ESO's split personality

Luke_Flamesword · August 2022

I'm just feeling really frustrated, because it looks like ZOS don't know what they even do.

They wanted to raise the floor and lower ceiling? They wanted better acessibility for harder content? Good, I agree with that.

So why are doing something opposite?

I don't even talk about nerfs for everyone, because this is not the worst. The worst experience for me with this patch was final boss on veteran Graven Deep. I had quite good PUG group (no fake roles, everyones makes good enough job) but we were overhelmed with wipe and one-shot mechanics. We know what to do, we spent 2 freaking hours on it, but it was impossible for us, because we have only one pair of eyes. When you shoot dealy orb, then kills you big aoe from behing your back. When you watch out for aoe and stupid orb, then it cames second orb - other player was not avoided fear mechanic and you didn't see it, because you watched for freaking orb, aoes and keeping safe your character from fear. Meanwhile of course there comes deadly dot which is very purly telegraphed and often you don't even see your soul or even know that you get it until it's too late. I don't even want talk about shades mechanic or killing behemoth , when all of this happens constantly. It's way too hard for non-elite PUGs.

So you nerfed my dk with very slow dots, because it was too hard to keep up with casting it, right? And with same patch you gave us dungeon where give challenge 10 times harder with keeping up on all this stuff and every one mechanic is not just punishing but deadly (so many one-shots or total wipeouts). It's too hard to cast some dots every 10 seconds but for some reason you don't any problem to make such a exhausting challenge on non-HM veteran dungeon? I run many vet dungeons and other DLCs was completed by me on vet in day one, but for this dungeons I don't even want to come back ever...

And you don't even nerf arenas for some reason?

Easy content is easy as always, but why pro-content is now even more pro and accessible for even narrower playerbase?

I play this game for 3 years now, I was very patient with maaaaany bad things, but now I feel very upset, because this DLC was most frustrating experience with dungeons so far. I want fair challenge, not crazy mechanics just to cover how much shorter these dungeons are this year...

Amphithoe · August 2022

I agree 100%, it feels like there is a cognitive dissonance within the mindset of the changes being forwarded into this build.

EldritchSun · August 2022

ZoS fails on what they do just make me laugh. Imagine you'd have more chances to beat the vet boss if your builds weren't gutted.

Ratzkifal · August 2022

You know, "split personality" might actually be more true than you'd think. Two combat devs sit in a meeting. They talk and talk and then agree that accessibility needs to be tackled. But then they forgot to talk about how they want to address it and just get straight to work, possibly even due to not working in-office due to Covid, and suddenly they are pulling in opposite directions so to speak with mutually exclusive approaches to how the game should become more accessible.
The only issue is that after Week 1 of PTS they should have realized what had happened and made it all make sense. It still doesn't make sense. Why nerf everyone only to then lower the health of all bosses. Now the only result of that is PvP is entering another tank meta nobody wanted and arenas are much harder than before because apparently arenas aren't content that needs to be made accessible lmao.

Cyber10 · August 2022

U35 was a colossal failure based on what they state the intended purpose was.

AcadianPaladin · August 2022

Who knew my elf was an 'elite' player who needed her hard-earned 25k dps nerfed down to 16k? Ran dps checks today on several of the easier alliance zone WBs and the bosses inside normal FG1 today. She's a magplar, but I got similar results on my bow warden, mag warden, bow sorc. And I'm confident my magsorc and magblade will fare no better.

I'm an old, simple, casual player - I was supposed to get a buff and have my unimpressive dps raised higher off the floor, right?

Though I've always dreaded the combat 'adjustments' in every single update, this is the cruelest one I've yet experienced during my 7 1/2 years, 10k hours playtime and 2050 CP in ESO.

Tannus15 · August 2022

Ratzkifal wrote: »

You know, "split personality" might actually be more true than you'd think. Two combat devs sit in a meeting. They talk and talk and then agree that accessibility needs to be tackled. But then they forgot to talk about how they want to address it and just get straight to work, possibly even due to not working in-office due to Covid, and suddenly they are pulling in opposite directions so to speak with mutually exclusive approaches to how the game should become more accessible.
The only issue is that after Week 1 of PTS they should have realized what had happened and made it all make sense. It still doesn't make sense. Why nerf everyone only to then lower the health of all bosses. Now the only result of that is PvP is entering another tank meta nobody wanted and arenas are much harder than before because apparently arenas aren't content that needs to be made accessible lmao.

i think it's important to realise that ZoS have a plan and and end goal. They aren't telling us what this plan is, or what the objective of it is, or how long it's going to take. but there is one for sure.

the first stage of the plan is to nerf dps. they really wanted to nerf the dps. we honestly don't know why this is so important, they haven't explained it apart from saying the very top tier are very strong.

their intent was to do the dps and heals nerfs and then do content adjustment based on the data they gain from u35 in u36.

however it was made abundantly clear to them by the trials community that if they made content untenable for 3+ months we will probably just quit the game. no one wants to waste 3 months progressing through content which was made 20% harder knowing that it's going to be made easier. So they chucked the 10% health nerf on all bosses and strong mobs to try and keep content playable.
nothing has been done about incoming damage, so it might be that we just fall over and quit anyway, but we'll see.

other than adjusting content in u36 i have literally no idea what the next stage of their plan is. they have told us nothing.

MidniteOwl1913 · August 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

You know, "split personality" might actually be more true than you'd think. Two combat devs sit in a meeting. They talk and talk and then agree that accessibility needs to be tackled. But then they forgot to talk about how they want to address it and just get straight to work, possibly even due to not working in-office due to Covid, and suddenly they are pulling in opposite directions so to speak with mutually exclusive approaches to how the game should become more accessible.
The only issue is that after Week 1 of PTS they should have realized what had happened and made it all make sense. It still doesn't make sense. Why nerf everyone only to then lower the health of all bosses. Now the only result of that is PvP is entering another tank meta nobody wanted and arenas are much harder than before because apparently arenas aren't content that needs to be made accessible lmao.

i think it's important to realise that ZoS have a plan and and end goal. They aren't telling us what this plan is, or what the objective of it is, or how long it's going to take. but there is one for sure.

the first stage of the plan is to nerf dps. they really wanted to nerf the dps. we honestly don't know why this is so important, they haven't explained it apart from saying the very top tier are very strong.

their intent was to do the dps and heals nerfs and then do content adjustment based on the data they gain from u35 in u36.

however it was made abundantly clear to them by the trials community that if they made content untenable for 3+ months we will probably just quit the game. no one wants to waste 3 months progressing through content which was made 20% harder knowing that it's going to be made easier. So they chucked the 10% health nerf on all bosses and strong mobs to try and keep content playable.
nothing has been done about incoming damage, so it might be that we just fall over and quit anyway, but we'll see.

other than adjusting content in u36 i have literally no idea what the next stage of their plan is. they have told us nothing.

Yes, and whatever the goal is/was I doubt that accessibility had anything to do with it.

JaiaV · August 2022

Any semi-knowledgeable player easily pointed out that the patch notes throughout the entire PTS cycle were completely contradictory to a goal of "more accessibility", even on a first read, much less anyone who actually did any testing during the PTS cycle.

mpicklesster · August 2022

JaiaV wrote: »

Any semi-knowledgeable player easily pointed out that the patch notes throughout the entire PTS cycle were completely contradictory to a goal of "more accessibility", even on a first read, much less anyone who actually did any testing during the PTS cycle.

An historically effective propaganda technique is to try and sell an unpleasant change by associating it with what are sometimes called virtue words. In this case, "accessibility" being the virtue word.

Based on the final patch notes, it's clear that ZOS's primary goal was to make sweeping nerfs. They just presented them under the guise of "improving accessibility" because that's a current, positive buzz word in the gaming industry.

Regardless--part of Propaganda 101 is that, if you want to get away with hurting a large group of people, tell them you're trying to help them (and repeat it publicly ad nauseam). This technique works because too many people judge organizations by their words and not their actions. As a result, this propaganda plot alone will give an organization plausible deniability when dissenters accuse them of hurting a group (e.g., "We're not trying to hurt the game! We publicly said we want to make it better!").

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip · August 2022

Just reading the patch notes.....completely nonsensical!

Necrotech_Master · August 2022

mpicklesster wrote: »

JaiaV wrote: »

Any semi-knowledgeable player easily pointed out that the patch notes throughout the entire PTS cycle were completely contradictory to a goal of "more accessibility", even on a first read, much less anyone who actually did any testing during the PTS cycle.

An historically effective propaganda technique is to try and sell an unpleasant change by associating it with what are sometimes called virtue words. In this case, "accessibility" being the virtue word.

Based on the final patch notes, it's clear that ZOS's primary goal was to make sweeping nerfs. They just presented them under the guise of "improving accessibility" because that's a current, positive buzz word in the gaming industry.

Regardless--part of Propaganda 101 is that, if you want to get away with hurting a large group of people, tell them you're trying to help them (and repeat it publicly ad nauseam). This technique works because too many people judge organizations by their words and not their actions. As a result, this propaganda plot alone will give an organization plausible deniability when dissenters accuse them of hurting a group (e.g., "We're not trying to hurt the game! We publicly said we want to make it better!").

i think they tried the same thing with AWA by claiming it would improve performance and as a player notice no change in regards to that lol

(i do enjoy having the account wide achievements, but i know not everyone did)

FeedbackOnly · August 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

mpicklesster wrote: »

JaiaV wrote: »

Any semi-knowledgeable player easily pointed out that the patch notes throughout the entire PTS cycle were completely contradictory to a goal of "more accessibility", even on a first read, much less anyone who actually did any testing during the PTS cycle.

An historically effective propaganda technique is to try and sell an unpleasant change by associating it with what are sometimes called virtue words. In this case, "accessibility" being the virtue word.

Based on the final patch notes, it's clear that ZOS's primary goal was to make sweeping nerfs. They just presented them under the guise of "improving accessibility" because that's a current, positive buzz word in the gaming industry.

Regardless--part of Propaganda 101 is that, if you want to get away with hurting a large group of people, tell them you're trying to help them (and repeat it publicly ad nauseam). This technique works because too many people judge organizations by their words and not their actions. As a result, this propaganda plot alone will give an organization plausible deniability when dissenters accuse them of hurting a group (e.g., "We're not trying to hurt the game! We publicly said we want to make it better!").

i think they tried the same thing with AWA by claiming it would improve performance and as a player notice no change in regards to that lol

(i do enjoy having the account wide achievements, but i know not everyone did)

I can't think of anyone who would enjoy these changes after testing them out in dungeons

HowlKimchi · August 2022

Honestly, if pugging hard dungeons is your thing and the new dungeon is the biggest dealbreaker for you, FFXIV will provide you a way better experience.

Pelanora · August 2022

I do think this has something to do with saving server load or analytics crunching- so just plain old cost cutting. As well as just mainstreaming the game to be low damage rate, broad base. Like a marvel movie, not a french arthouse movie.

eovogtb16_ESO · August 2022

Play it on normal if veteran is too hard for you. But please dont ask them to nerf anymore content we dont need more nerfs.

The thing about normal content is that for players where veteran is too difficult normal is way too easy. It's such a massive difference between normal and veteran content.

World of Warcraft had this exact same issue over a decade ago. So they released normal, heroic and mythic versions of their dungeons where mythic was the equivalent to the older versions that less than 1% of the playerbase could complete.

I dont really have the issue as OP does as I think even the HM version of this dungeon is fairly easy to complete if you are good at the game. This is why they need more than two different versions because of the massive difference between veteran and normal.

Anyways about this dungeon it seems like you just dont understand the mechanics, not that its too difficult. Tank and healer hit the orbs while they are falling, dps focus clones. Don't face the boss when it is using its fear. When you go downstairs just sit in the healy ghosts and repeat. The mechanics are very simple.

prof_doom · August 2022

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

Play it on normal if veteran is too hard for you. But please dont ask them to nerf anymore content we dont need more nerfs.

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea, but at the end of day, it's not our call.
It wasn't the players that said they were "improving accessibility to the game’s combat".

All players had to say about U35 is that if their goal was accessibility, the changes weren't going to work.

If vet trials are going to be the realm of the top 5%, then it needs to be embraced, and we should never hear the phrase "obscene damage production at the high end" ever again.

HappyTheCamper · September 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

You know, "split personality" might actually be more true than you'd think. Two combat devs sit in a meeting. They talk and talk and then agree that accessibility needs to be tackled. But then they forgot to talk about how they want to address it and just get straight to work, possibly even due to not working in-office due to Covid, and suddenly they are pulling in opposite directions so to speak with mutually exclusive approaches to how the game should become more accessible.
The only issue is that after Week 1 of PTS they should have realized what had happened and made it all make sense. It still doesn't make sense. Why nerf everyone only to then lower the health of all bosses. Now the only result of that is PvP is entering another tank meta nobody wanted and arenas are much harder than before because apparently arenas aren't content that needs to be made accessible lmao.

i think it's important to realise that ZoS have a plan and and end goal. They aren't telling us what this plan is, or what the objective of it is, or how long it's going to take. but there is one for sure.

the first stage of the plan is to nerf dps. they really wanted to nerf the dps. we honestly don't know why this is so important, they haven't explained it apart from saying the very top tier are very strong.

their intent was to do the dps and heals nerfs and then do content adjustment based on the data they gain from u35 in u36.

however it was made abundantly clear to them by the trials community that if they made content untenable for 3+ months we will probably just quit the game. no one wants to waste 3 months progressing through content which was made 20% harder knowing that it's going to be made easier. So they chucked the 10% health nerf on all bosses and strong mobs to try and keep content playable.
nothing has been done about incoming damage, so it might be that we just fall over and quit anyway, but we'll see.

other than adjusting content in u36 i have literally no idea what the next stage of their plan is. they have told us nothing.

It’s also especially weird when they decided only 1 year ago to RAISE THE CP CAP TO 3600 up from 810 in a single update. They caused the dps jump on their own!

boi_anachronism_ · September 2022

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

Play it on normal if veteran is too hard for you. But please dont ask them to nerf anymore content we dont need more nerfs.

The thing about normal content is that for players where veteran is too difficult normal is way too easy. It's such a massive difference between normal and veteran content.

World of Warcraft had this exact same issue over a decade ago. So they released normal, heroic and mythic versions of their dungeons where mythic was the equivalent to the older versions that less than 1% of the playerbase could complete.

I dont really have the issue as OP does as I think even the HM version of this dungeon is fairly easy to complete if you are good at the game. This is why they need more than two different versions because of the massive difference between veteran and normal.

Anyways about this dungeon it seems like you just dont understand the mechanics, not that its too difficult. Tank and healer hit the orbs while they are falling, dps focus clones. Don't face the boss when it is using its fear. When you go downstairs just sit in the healy ghosts and repeat. The mechanics are very simple.

Normal- vet- hard mode. 3 different difficulties. It's not supposed to be easy - really really insanely hard- and extra super duper hard. The goal is easy - medium - hard. The issue with most experienced groups is that the abom effectively spams a light attack that does about 38k damage and has similar health to the boss, not the mechanics. My team had zero issue with the mechanics. Most of us have finished all other vet content in the game trials, dungeons, and arena's (I'm missing vbrp personally but that's about it). Several of them have dlc trifectas, fang lair, scp, coral aerie ect. There is no reason folks on our skill level with a good strat and decent knowledge of mechs shouldn't be able to clear. Code did an excellent analysis that concluded that it is about 80% of the difficulty of hm and you may as well just do hard mode because if you can clear vet you can clear hm which isn't even close to on par with other dlcs where hm is a cut above. It is objectively way over tuned compared to other dungeons including it's counterpart earth root which isn't even a fraction of the difficulty. A pug can clear normal, a fairly skilled and decent team should clear vet, even a pug, a highly organized team should be clearing hm. There are organized teams that run 4-content frequently that spent hrs in there just because of the abom. That's just silly. Hard mode should be hard, vet should be middle of the road not a pinch easier then hm. I'm rarely in favor of nerfing difficulty but I'm 100% behind this one.