Trying to understand Orgnum mathematically.

JJMaxx1980 · July 2022

So I’ve been trying to understand how to win with this deck for a while now.

The Patron starts Neutral and each player starts with 10 cards in their deck. The Neutral power gives you 1 power for every 6 cards in your deck, rounded down. So this means if you use it before buying two cards from the tavern, you’re only getting 1 power. Then your opponent plays the patron power with Unfavored, and generates 2 power. This is bad for you.

On the flip side, if you do it at 12, you’ll get two and they’ll get two and you’ll spend the game 3 coins short every turn, which feels bad.

So it seems like the best strategy is a race to 18 cards. Then you hit neutral, get 3 power, they get 2 and you’re off to the races.

Is this the correct strategy? Are you fishing for a Tithe to double tap it? (which would require 9 coins)

I feel like there’s a formula for dealing with this deck.

Treeshka · July 2022

I sometimes let my opponent use the patron power depending on my deck. Sometimes buying cards from the tavern and occasionally let your opponent keep the control of the patron is better.

Sungod · August 2022

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

Is this the correct strategy? Are you fishing for a Tithe to double tap it? (which would require 9 coins)

I feel like there’s a formula for dealing with this deck.

The correct strategy is playing the game with the cards you are presented, not necessarily trying to force a card or patron to fit a playstyle. I find starting to turn that patron as early as the 2nd turn (if you able to earn more prestige than your opponent) can work decently well, but is very situational. This starts to create a gap between you two, and forces your opponent to either spend 3 gold to slow your prestige earning, or ignore it and try to gain gold/buy cards. Works best if RNG gifts you a sweet card on the first turn.
If you're buying a lot of low gold cost cards, and able to coast on your prestige earning capability, hitting the patron will just guarantee you prestige every turn. The more cards you have, the more prestige you can earn. This is good to swat out agents, or continue to leave your opponent in the dust.
Sometimes, I don't hit hit the patron. It really just depends on what cards the tavern tosses. And which ones your opponent purchase and flip you a sweet card!

Tuonra2 · August 2022

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

Is this the correct strategy? Are you fishing for a Tithe to double tap it? (which would require 9 coins)

I feel like there’s a formula for dealing with this deck.

Your analysis is correct but your conclusion skips a step I feel.

Imo you want to pick up a card that will get you good turns regardless of needing to spend 3 gold on patron.
Like you said if both have 12-17 card decks, the patron is even even if you go first.
But if you gave 12 cards and every other turn say you can buy a card while still patroning, you will eventually get ahead and start getting net gains out of patrons even if those cards don't do anything for prestige.

The best strategy as orgnum I would say is turn 1 oathman, turn 2 patron.
That way yes you get only 1 power but either your opponent buys a card on their turn 2 to get 12, or they start patron tug of war. Either way they either give you a prestige lead and a boarding party or they run the entire game on only their first turn card.
And even if that first turn card is good, you still get to take cards with oathman while they have to spend their patron power to remove him.

It's basically an instant gg, another reason why Orgnum is an absolute asswipe of gamedesign.

PinkApple · August 2022

The way it plays out typically its more-so a race to 12 cards than 18 I find haha.

KefkaGestahl · August 2022

The way I play it is that I instantly concede the moment I see somebody pick orgnum. I'll eat the ten minutes to avoid that trash deck.

Tuonra2 · August 2022

KefkaGestahl wrote: »

The way I play it is that I instantly concede the moment I see somebody pick orgnum. I'll eat the ten minutes to avoid that trash deck.

This is an unfathomably bad attitude.

KefkaGestahl · August 2022

Tuonra2 wrote: »

KefkaGestahl wrote: »

The way I play it is that I instantly concede the moment I see somebody pick orgnum. I'll eat the ten minutes to avoid that trash deck.

This is an unfathomably bad attitude.

It's an unfathomably bad deck. The way that it's designed has no counter that is available to most people. If the patron is unfavored to you, and you use it, you only get two power. But your opponent is capable of getting far more than two power by flipping it back. It puts you in a corner and shoves you down a hole. You can't escape from it. Either you keep flipping the patron back to slow the bleeding or you let them just keep cashing it out every turn for maximum gains.

I don't know what they were thinking with it. Why is the unfavored penalty so harsh? If they're going to keep it like that then at the very least it should operate like the duke and be inoperable when it favors you. That way you can't just spam it over and over.

Sungod · August 2022

Thats literally.... the playstyle of that deck.
Or maybe you just want all the decks to do the same thing?
Learn to counter it, or stay on the bottom forever.

KefkaGestahl · August 2022

Sungod wrote: »

Thats literally.... the playstyle of that deck.
Or maybe you just want all the decks to do the same thing?
Learn to counter it, or stay on the bottom forever.

Did you say that to all of the people crying about Oakensoul? They should have learned to counter it or stay on the bottom forever. Instead of being condescending why don't you actually explain how the unfavored mechanic is fair? If you flip it and you only get two, but your opponent can flip it and get five, how exactly are you supposed to win? If you refuse to flip it, they get even more power than that and add raiding parties to their deck that then allow them to gain even more power.

If you try to stop the bleeding by flipping orgnum back to neutral, it prevents you from using other patrons which would actually help you catch up in prestige. But if you don't flip it back to neutral, as I said, they get cascading successes every time they use their favored orgnum. It is a race that, by design, you cannot win. If your only counter is "lol, get good cards" then you have no counter. Sure, if two armories and a rally magically fall into my hand I'm sure I can beat orgnum, but that's tantamount to playing the lottery and acting like it's a well thought out retirement plan.

Luke_Flamesword · August 2022

When you have to create super strategy with some luck with cards just to beat guy who just mindless spam same button every turn, then clear is that game is not balanced properly.

Tuonra2 · August 2022

KefkaGestahl wrote: »

If you flip it and you only get two, but your opponent can flip it and get five, how exactly are you supposed to win?

This is a nonsense example, if anyone can get 5 power from the 1/6 orgnum and has not yet won the game, they are never going to win a game. Likewise if you let your opponent get to the point where they have 30 cards in deck in an orgnum game, then you have no sense of strategy.

The gameplay is boring, and the first player is favoured, yes all true. But there is definitely room to act and counter orgnum in the first 2-3 turns. What you say about the unfavoured patron is just wrong tho. 2 power is more than you get from the neutral patron at first, and equal to it for nearly the entirety of the game.
Which makes the game just about creating good turns for yourself despite a 3 gold 'tax' every turn. Which is undoubtedly boring, but nowhere near impossible.

Sungod · August 2022

People that cry about Orgnum, don't know how to play strategic.
Just like using ANY deck, there will always be RNG that will screw you. If Orgnum is in play, you HAVE to be very careful about the first 2-3 turns. Depending on which decks are in play, should depend on how you buy cards, or turn them into gold earners. Orgnum is not a cheat code, nor is it unbalanced. You might as well cry about rally, midnight raid, conquest, pool of shadow, or any other card that gives the purchaser the advantage.
If orgnum is selected first as a patron, pick a deck that will potentially give you some counters to it. Instead of having the mindset of the victim, have the mindset of the strategist.

KefkaGestahl · August 2022

Tuonra2 wrote: »

The gameplay is boring, and the first player is favoured, yes all true. But there is definitely room to act and counter orgnum in the first 2-3 turns.

Sungod wrote: »

People that cry about Orgnum, don't know how to play strategic.

Just like using ANY deck, there will always be RNG that will screw you. If Orgnum is in play, you HAVE to be very careful about the first 2-3 turns.

If your only counter is "build up writs and hope you can afford to buy cards even after you have to flip Orgnum every round because your opponent has no skill" then is that really a counter? Yes, you can buy economy cards in the beginning if they're available but that doesn't help your case because counters shouldn't require specific cards. Sometimes you're not going to have luxury exports or prophecy available. I've seen people spam orgnum when every single card available had a 6+ cost.

No other patron requires countering in the same way. Only Orgnum. So why do you lot continue to insist it's fine and dandy?

Tuonra2 · August 2022

KefkaGestahl wrote: »

Tuonra2 wrote: »

The gameplay is boring, and the first player is favoured, yes all true. But there is definitely room to act and counter orgnum in the first 2-3 turns.

Sungod wrote: »

People that cry about Orgnum, don't know how to play strategic.

Just like using ANY deck, there will always be RNG that will screw you. If Orgnum is in play, you HAVE to be very careful about the first 2-3 turns.

If your only counter is "build up writs and hope you can afford to buy cards even after you have to flip Orgnum every round because your opponent has no skill" then is that really a counter? Yes, you can buy economy cards in the beginning if they're available but that doesn't help your case because counters shouldn't require specific cards. Sometimes you're not going to have luxury exports or prophecy available. I've seen people spam orgnum when every single card available had a 6+ cost.

No other patron requires countering in the same way. Only Orgnum. So why do you lot continue to insist it's fine and dandy?

[SNIP]

Orgnum sucks because it limits the strategy to 2 turns instead of the entire game. But in the high ranks people either enjoy the strategy too much or simply can't afford the 55-60% win rate Orgnum gives you. Because yes Orgnum is favoured, but if your opponent starts beating you, it's incredibly hard to do any better than just spam Orgnum, so you are just waiting to lose. This makes the deck an overly effective noob crusher. If it gets tuned down to be just a noob crusher that would be fine for me.

SilverBride · August 2022

I used to dread seeing the Orgnum deck, but now I embrace it. If my opponent chooses it I don't try to counter it... I use it to my advantage. The player who chose the deck isn't the only one who can use it.