VaranisArano wrote: »

Summerset did it really well, as there are many dialogue differences when playing as an Altmer vs another race. There's no option to play as an Altmer from Summerset though and you are assumed to have been raised off the main Isle of Alinor.

That may have been in part because of the criticism of Morrowind where Dunmer characters were left going "What's a Tribunal?"

Grab a khajit and go chat to the bag seller in Alinor (also a khajit) 😂 that one, 100% throws pick up lines 😂

Scaletho wrote:
Do you think like me and feel a little bummed when your character's race is not recognized in the stories?

NOT AT ALL

You simply don't care? Or don't bother you at all?

I DON'T CARE and I'M NOT BOTHERED in the slightest

More important things to worry about.

Do you think like me and feel a little bummed when your character's race is not recognized in the stories?

Yes. They became better at it in the dlcs/chapters (Base game rarely had recognition), but that seems to have gotten worse again.

I detest when npc insults and talk badly about a race my character is like they weren't, while my character is just standing there like . This was very noticeable as an imperial character, but happens with others too.
Even in Greymoor, a recent chapter which has a big focus on vampires and werewolves, players who are either of those barely get any recognition as they talk about vampires this werewolves that. Or get the option to mention it ourselves.

But it's not just race recognition that is the issue. It's any kind of recognition. The Vestige could have done all current content in "order" and they will still be treated like some nobody. You do the latest dlc/chapter and some bad guy makes themselves known, who we will just stare at and let monologue. Not being able to do anything towards either because they are oh too powerful or somesuch somehow. Despite us having killed hundreds of powerful beings at that time.

We also have the issue with how our character can only ask about cultural thing they are likely a part of. For example, Bosmer asking about the Green Pact and Y'ffre, Argonians about the Hist etc. Sure, not every Bosmer is from Valenwood and know the green pact etc, but there should be an option for us that our character do know about this. Same as there should be an option for Altmer and Dunmer to actually be from Summerset and Vvardenfell.

Speaking of the dialogue options.... The horrible dialogue options, which aren't even options. We are forced to be a bumbling idiot with memory worse than a senile goldfish most of the time.

Being an RPG and an Elder Scrolls game there should be immersion for our characters so we can roleplay, there should be roleplay options, there should be any kind of choice even if they might be the illusions of choice. But right now we rarely get even an illusion.

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

We also have the issue with how our character can only ask about cultural thing they are likely a part of. For example, Bosmer asking about the Green Pact and Y'ffre, Argonians about the Hist etc. Sure, not every Bosmer is from Valenwood and know the green pact etc, but there should be an option for us that our character do know about this. Same as there should be an option for Altmer and Dunmer to actually be from Summerset and Vvardenfell.

Speaking of the dialogue options.... The horrible dialogue options, which aren't even options. We are forced to be a bumbling idiot with memory worse than a senile goldfish most of the time.

These kinds of dialogue "oh please tell me all about the Green Pact!" do have their place - even though ZOS tends to make them sound extra stupid remarkably often. If my character knows about that topic, I just don't choose that option. (Even though it's hard sometimes. I've played quite a lot of CRPGs, and the urge to exhaust every single dialogue option until they have all disappeared / are greyed out, is very strong. )

But yes, that is assuming that there is an option for the quest/dialogue to go forward without that dialogue choice. If the only viable way to continue the quest is to ask "please explain at length again what we've just been doing in the last five minutes", that's objectively bad.

"What's a Saxhleel? What's a Hist?" -My argonian

Ugh.

psychotrip wrote: »

TL;DR Your race is ignored because roleplay isnt a priority in this game, and it's cheaper to just ignore it.

How is roleplay not a priority if the game is full of things that only serve to enhance the RP setting? Lorebooks, dialogue lines from non-story NPC's throughout the world, etc?

Regardless if you like it or not, this game is pretty much an RPG in every aspect. It's not only the storyteller who contributes to the immersion, but also the player. Leaving things ambiguous leaves more room for personal interpretation.

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

"What's a Saxhleel? What's a Hist?" -My argonian

Ugh.

That was sorta the main point of Murkmire. Remember, the BBEG was an Argonian raised by Imperials. Its not too farfetched to find other argonians raised in similar circumstances far away from the hist.

Marto wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Honestly, I think the imagination ends up having to do more of the work of immersion in a game like this. Part of my roleplaying experience is filtering the presented quest through the lens of my character's backstory and roleplaying.

I do both D&D and videogaming. ESO is a different type of roleplaying, but not necessarily that much less imaginative than playing a particularly railroaded campaign. So if the reasons ESO's writers give don't satisfy, I just make up my own reasons for why I'm going along with Abnur Tharn's latest stupid plan.

This is maybe going to sound a bit bizarre, but I don't think it's super helpful to put the burden of immersing the player entirely on the writers or the DM. Player immersion is first and foremost on the player, and the more imaginative that the player gets with their character, it quickly outpaces the ability of the writer/DM to cater to that imagination.

That's pretty well illustrated in Dunmer roleplaying. House Dunmer or Ashlander? Pro or anti slavery? Redoran, Telvanni, Hlaalu, Dres, Indoril or none? Tribunal or heretic?

ESO writers tend to stick to a very vague vision of the Vestige because if they get too specific, they risk trampling on our imagination.

My Vestige, Varanis Arano, is a minor member of House Redoran, anti-slavery, and disillusioned with the Tribunal due to quest events. There are thousands of other Dunmer players who would answer those questions differently. The writers have to make a story that can accommodate all of us. They don't always succeed, but they do a pretty good job.


TES games tend to take the general stance of "You're one of us, but not from around here" in your native country and "You're a foreigner" when you're not the native race. That's more or less how the writers for ESO operate too.

I can't expect the Devs to write ten different scripts for each race and record ten different voice lines when needed. TES 3 was as immersive as it was because most of the dialogue wasn't voiced.

Would it be nice? Yeah! Are they going to use the budget for that? No. So we get small scenes and a few quests that play out with minor differences by race (there's a Orsinium quest where male orcs can become chief of a clan, for example).

Exactly.

This is more or less the type of roleplaying that ESO encourages the player to engage in.

Recent Bethesda games are built upon the idea that "No choice = Infinite choice".

When you play a game like Dragon Age or even a CRPG like Divinity Original Sin, the developers can only write so many different choices.

There may be a dialogue where your character is asked about their backstory. Which region they hail from, is their family still alive, did they leave on good terms or not, that sort of stuff. Usually you'll have 2-3 options, maybe 5-7 if the game has a really in-depth conversation system. This greatly limits your options, and encourages you to build a character to fit a certain framework..

But in a TES game your character is never asked such questions. Or they are asked in vague, non-committal ways, like an NPC saying it out loud while you're outside a conversation UI. That means you are free to come up with any number of possibilities, far more than any quest designer could plan for, and so unique that not even the most seasoned writers could imagine them.

This is what it means for your character to be a blank slate. It doesn't mean they're boring, dull, or uninteresting. It just means that you, the player, gets to decide what they are like. You get to fill in that slate.

The only limit is your imagination.

But if the choices and consequences are in your imagination as well, is it really a role-playing game? I can play pretend in my own mind all day. Plenty of action games are RPGs by this logic.

Of course, each character/class in SWtOR is much more defined, with their own personal plotline, and a specific group of companion NPCs for each one. That makes it much easier for them to build dialogues with options/choices/etc. (and yeah, that game was made by Bioware. So they already had more "roleplaying & choices" experience - and in a different style - than the TES people. Just like Beth fans expected ESO to be like a TES game, Bioware fans expected Bioware-ness from SWtOR.)


Based on the other MMOs that I've spent a longer amount of time with (WoW, City of Heroes, Star Trek Online, Secret World), I don't generally expect much "roleplaying" from them. (aside from "RPer's" emoting in the back room of an inn).
They tend to have linear/railroad stories, that you just plow through from beginning to end, finishing in the same exact place no matter what you do. There's rarely any characterization choice in MMOs, just going through the pre-set story & building a character from stats, skills, and gear. (kind of like the average ARPG/Diablo-like isn't an "RPG", nor are JRPGs.)

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

"What's a Saxhleel? What's a Hist?" -My argonian

Ugh.

Your Argonian might know those things, but the majority of new players (and even old TES players who aren't lore junkies) probably don't.

And the game is made for humans, not non-existent fantasy species.

This is part of acknowledging that it's a game, for humans, not some sort of alternate reality simulator.

But we are responding as our Vestige, not the player. There should be an dialogue option for us that skips that or one with a response that we know of it.

I agree that those "more background information" dialogue options should always be optional. They do it sometimes, not sure why they can't be consistent with it. You'd think there'd be an overall "dialogue style bible" that laid out standard guidelines for all quest & dialogue builders to follow.

psychotrip wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Exactly.

This is more or less the type of roleplaying that ESO encourages the player to engage in.

Recent Bethesda games are built upon the idea that "No choice = Infinite choice".

When you play a game like Dragon Age or even a CRPG like Divinity Original Sin, the developers can only write so many different choices.

There may be a dialogue where your character is asked about their backstory. Which region they hail from, is their family still alive, did they leave on good terms or not, that sort of stuff. Usually you'll have 2-3 options, maybe 5-7 if the game has a really in-depth conversation system. This greatly limits your options, and encourages you to build a character to fit a certain framework..

But in a TES game your character is never asked such questions. Or they are asked in vague, non-committal ways, like an NPC saying it out loud while you're outside a conversation UI. That means you are free to come up with any number of possibilities, far more than any quest designer could plan for, and so unique that not even the most seasoned writers could imagine them.

This is what it means for your character to be a blank slate. It doesn't mean they're boring, dull, or uninteresting. It just means that you, the player, gets to decide what they are like. You get to fill in that slate.

The only limit is your imagination.

But if the choices and consequences are in your imagination as well, is it really a role-playing game? I can play pretend in my own mind all day. Plenty of action games are RPGs by this logic.

Is is, yes. Because the game is purposely designed to leave that room for you.

If you're playing Uncharted or some game like that, you don't get to decide how the protagonist reacts to events. The developers already filled that in with voice acting and animations.

Different RPGs do things like this in different ways. It doesn't necessarily have to be quantified or acknowledged by numeric game mechanics.

Mass Effect 3 quantifies, keeps track of, and reacts to your dialogue options. But doesn't take your equipment or playstyle into account, at all.

No quest or NPC anywhere in the game (base game, chapters, DLC, anywhere) will recognize an Imperial character.

I was thinking quite a bit about this earlier, and while it is disappointing that NPCs don't acknowledge your race more often, it does sort of make sense why they don't. As stated in previous comments it would cost a lot more time and money to have extra dialogue written and recorded referencing so many possible unique backgrounds, and that's understandable. Although I'm somewhat skeptical of that reasoning, seeing as how most characters constantly have new things to say all the time if you pester them. Many have also suggested that the writers do this in part to leave things purposely vague and open for the player's to interpret their characters any way they choose to. Which would be fine. I'm not too bothered by that either...

However, this philosophy also works both ways, and the part that DOES bother me is that every character just automatically, and often incorrectly, assumes you're some alien outsider even when you're in your character's homeland. That in itself is bad enough and very awkward especially if you're RPing a character that grew up in that region. It could maybe still be overlooked though, if they didn't insist on bringing it up every chance they get in the in the rudest and most insulting ways possible. The fact that nearly every NPC has to make a huge deal about you being some suspicious dirty outlander, whether you are playing one or not, makes those comments VERY difficult to just shrug off and ignore after awhile. And as a result feels like you're being pushed in the direction the game wants you to play your character, which is the exact opposite of leaving it up to your own interpretation....And this brings me to another problem, that probably bothers me the most:

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

We also have the issue with how our character can only ask about cultural thing they are likely a part of. For example, Bosmer asking about the Green Pact and Y'ffre, Argonians about the Hist etc. Sure, not every Bosmer is from Valenwood and know the green pact etc, but there should be an option for us that our character do know about this. Same as there should be an option for Altmer and Dunmer to actually be from Summerset and Vvardenfell.

Speaking of the dialogue options.... The horrible dialogue options, which aren't even options. We are forced to be a bumbling idiot with memory worse than a senile goldfish most of the time.

Being an RPG and an Elder Scrolls game there should be immersion for our characters so we can roleplay, there should be roleplay options, there should be any kind of choice even if they might be the illusions of choice. But right now we rarely get even an illusion.

I 100% agree with the points made above...Not only are we usually met with suspicion and hostility even by our own people...but then to add to the insult. We also have to play dumb. When I'm roleplaying a character I absolutely HATE being forced to pretend to be an idiot, and say things that neither me nor my character would ever say. I understand that not all of us are lore experts, and some aren't all that familiar with the ES universe. There are a lot of players out there that are brand new to this series, and for those players, long detailed explanations for subjects that should be common knowledge, can be helpful. Although those dialog "options" can also be super insulting to the intelligence of even the newest players.(Just because they're new doesn't mean they're dumb and the game shouldn't treat them like they are.)

On the other hand there are many of us that are quite familiar with TES lore, and I completely agree that those idiotic questions should be entirely optional and only there for those that need to ask them. Because it's painful to be forced to ask such things in order to advance through the quest! And counter to the argument that adding race specific dialog to npcs would be more costly, it would cost absolutely nothing to give us the choice to not have to make said npcs explain stuff to us that we're already well aware of.

I can't think of any situation where I or my characters would ever need to ask questions like: "What is Red Mountain?" or "Who is Vivec?"... Even if that character grew up on the opposite side of Tamriel.

Not to mention that if you go to Vvardenfell and ask a dunmer those, they will very appropriately be absolutely offended that you'd even ask such a ridiculous question.

tl;dr: I am far more bothered by the fact that the game tries to force us to be dumb outsiders than I am about npcs not acknowledging my race... Stahp treating us like we're stupid.