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What's The Goal? (U35 and Beyond)

Ksariyu
Ksariyu
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This is one of those really large topics that I feel I could write an entire thesis about, but the more I think about it the more I realize less is better.

At it's simplest, the only question I have for the devs is: What direction do you want to take the game? There are countless suggestions here every day that get completely ignored while the devs make and revert change after change after change, but there remains little to no communication about why, long-term, these changes are being made. Most of the developer comments read something like, "This was over/underperforming in certain content so it's getting adjusted," which for most things is fine, but we've clearly hit a point where your community has lost their bearings on what you intend this game to be. Just off the top of my head, here are a few hot-topic issues the devs themselves have acknowledged that have been abandoned for months or even years:

-Class Identity: This was mentioned back in 2019 in this article, where Gameplay Lead Rob discusses the access each class has to each role, and more importantly, the different styles and mechanics each class uses to achieve their main goal. To this day, tank and healer builds are nearly identical across all six classes, with DPS having only slightly more variation based on the specific encounter and the option to go full stam or mag. With U35, this will become even more prevalent as DoTs and HoTs will now all have the same duration, giving each class a similar tempo.

-Overland Difficulty: This topic has its own pinned thread on the forums, started in November of 2021. There are 128 pages of discussion on this thread. Not a single change has been proposed since.

-PvP: As a whole, discussion about PvP and its future both in Cyrodiil and BGs has been largely ignored by the devs. While we do know there is some back-end redesigning going on, there has been nothing of note regarding changes or additions planned for PvP after the overhaul is done. This is a mode that hasn't seen new content in 3 years, and that was just a single map. A dedicated PvP game would be dead with that level of neglect, and given the queue times for BGs these days, I'm guessing that's what's happening here.

It's been said thousands of times by now, but by far the worst part of ZoS is your communication. Players are left entirely in the dark about the true state of the game, while you the devs claim to have a "broader plan" that nobody, including yourselves, seems to know about. If all these things you write and talk about are in fact important enough to acknowledge, then why are they not important enough to follow up on? The craziest part to me is that this just encompasses combat. There is an entire other half of the game between crafting, the justice system, antiquities, and now Tales of Tribute, the first two which have been completely disregarded while antiquities has already fallen into routine cash-grab territory. I can't see ToT having a much brighter future at this point.

At the end of the day though, all of this comes down to one single request for the devs, which is just talk to us. Without the PR filter, the reservations, the abstraction ("Power deltas", like what?). Just be honest about where you want to see the game go and how you want to get there. This game has so many different limbs already, but none of them complement each other. It's time to start putting the pieces together rather than just tacking on more and more. For me personally, I would distill my main wishes for ZoS to just two things: Quality over quantity, and communication. Just those two principles I believe would make a world of difference for this game that we all love so dearly.

P.S. Trust has to be earned. Four years of bait-and-switches is not how you do it.
  • Finedaible
    Finedaible
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    I have to agree that having no clear goal connected with these drastic changes every 3 months is perhaps the most confusing thing that is tearing the community apart. The entire community is trying to figure out why these changes were even necessary when they don't do anything to support the developers' stated goals in the combat preview. If they had said the changes were for performance reasons I may have even believed it but they talked about the usual raising the floor but then lowered it instead. All this would perhaps make sense if they have an even greater goal which give sense to all these changes, but the fact is they have never been upfront and honest about anything. Until the directors start trusting their player base I don't see players trusting them, that's a two-way street. Only a god demands blind trust.
  • FeedbackOnly
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    Assuming it makes DPS easier to do then we could expand who does end game with a trial group finder

    Besides dk healer I feel class identity improves this patch with resto staff skills not being the only option
  • eovogtb16_ESO
    eovogtb16_ESO
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    There is no reason to do any changes they have proposed when new content is balanced around previous changes. If you are not going to adjust content there is no good reason to adjust balance. We don't need drastic changes every 3 months its actually insane and causes massive burnout. No other game does this. Why is there even a PTS? Make content and adjust it while its live and pay your employees to test for bugs not have a playerbase bugtest for free for you. This makes content more inclusive as players will have equal opportunities to progress rather than having people test content months in advance getting a massive head-start and an uneven playing field. Again no other MMO does this.
  • Marto
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    Ksariyu wrote: »
    -Overland Difficulty: This topic has its own pinned thread on the forums, started in November of 2021. There are 128 pages of discussion on this thread. Not a single change has been proposed since.

    Yeah, that's exactly why no change has been proposed. It's 128 pages of extremely diverse, contradictory, and not very well formulated feedback, from a wide range of players.

    And the vast majority of players that would be affected by such a change are not active in the forums. Meaning ZOS has to go out of their way to conduct surveys, tests, and gather feedback on other places. So it's not just 128 pages.

    Furthermore, it'd be unwise to propose overworld changes until ZOS is comfortable with both the damage floor and the damage ceiling. And it's clear from u35 that ZOS is not comfortable with it. The gap between floor and ceiling is stifling development and balance of future and existing content.

    The current state of the game does not allow for content to be balanced. That's why ZOS are proposing changes.
    Ksariyu wrote: »
    -PvP: As a whole, discussion about PvP and its future both in Cyrodiil and BGs has been largely ignored by the devs.

    Rich spoke about it often on his Twitch stream. Basically, PVP is not being ignored, and ZOS absolutely wants to work on it. But they've been forced to leave everything on hold until the outstanding performance issues are solved.

    There's even been datamining that suggest ZOS were planning on adding more daedric weapons like Volendrung, every few months.

    Rich gave the example of the destructible bridges and gates. When they were introduced, they massively reduced PVP server performance. But what's more vexing, is that reverting the change in their internal servers did not revert performance to how it was before. This was absolutely a classic case of spaghetti code.

    Given the improvement of the new servers, I wouldn't be surprised if ZOS already resumed development of PVP content.

    Ksariyu wrote: »
    the abstraction ("Power deltas", like what?)

    Power Deltas are not an abstraction. They are the opposite of an abstraction.

    In that last paragraph, you're saying ZOS should "talk to us more" and let us know their thought process, and simultaneously saying "don't tell us about your thought process".

    You don't want a PR filter? That's what no PR filter looks like. You'll have to deal with terminology like that.

    -

    Overall, I absolutely agree that ZOS should communicate more, and let us know of their long term plans.

    Are they planning on merging Weapon and Spell Damage into the same stat? Are they planning on re-working light and heavy attacks into something more Skyrim-like, with hitboxes and timing?

    There's absolutely changes in u35 that make no sense to us because we don't have the full context. We don't know what's coming in the future.

    Obviously they can't tell us much, because of NDAs, third party confidentiality agreements, and things like that.

    (Remember when people kept asking if ESO would support AMD FSR, Rich decided to be more communicative and confirm it would be coming, and then got in trouble because of it?)

    Plus, they understandably don't want to spoil what the Q4 DLC or the 2023 Chapter will include.

    But I still think it'd be great if ZOS shared their plans with us. If for no other reason, then to quell all the assumptions and guesses people are forced to make.
    "According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"
  • RevJJ
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    Step 1) Reduce everyone’s damage, making some content inaccessible to lower end and mid tier players

    Step 2) ?

    Step 3) Profit!
  • kypranb14_ESO
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    RevJJ wrote: »
    Step 1) Reduce everyone’s damage, making some content inaccessible to lower end and mid tier players

    Step 2) Introduce a Mythic item in the next expansion that allows light/heavy attacks to scale off of stats, doubles the damage of dots and cuts their duration in half.

    Step 3) Profit!

    Fixed, for comedy!
  • Riptide
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    To find a way to ameliorate the power creep they painted themselves into a corner with by releasing overpowered sets and mythics for years without gutting all of them at once, and to set up a sustainable continuation of that carrot on a stick method of moving expansions and DLCs.

    To reduce server load/calculations.

    These seem to be at the actual heart of it, if you look close at what they do rather than what they say.

    I mean it is true they want to make the game more accessible to new players, for moving expansions, dlcs, subs, and crowns to a wider and wider audience is what keeps the train moving. And new players who don’t already have multiple notable homes, bankers, merchants and the lot of it have a more elastic spending pattern in the here and now than most of us who already do.

    And in content thin expansions, OP items and gear are a primary closer.

    So no matter how byzantine and circuitous path the updates take, safe money it is to set up the continued release of them.
    Esse quam videri.
  • FluffWit
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    They said what the stated goal was- to change rotations from "get as many dots and AoEs out as possible while obsessively roating in light attacks then rinse and repeat" to "get some aoes and dots out then actually spam your spammable" when they announced these changes.

    The second unstated goal is the same one they have almost every year- to scale back damage so we don't get too op. And of course the reason they have to scale it back is because they're constantly adding new dlc sets that make us more powerful to make us feel like we're not going to be good enough if we don't buy said dlcs.

    I'm not hating on them, that's just the reality. Most mmos do it, some far more egregiously- Neverwinter for instance pretty much died because of it.

    I will say if they'd added a new class or race to encourage us to buy the dlcs instead of Tales of Tribute being the main selling point they could have not bothered with the new sets that make us op.

    In that regard I am hating on them. All those resources they spent on ToT were a waste that could have been better spent giving us a different reason to play. How they thought a card game was a good idea is beyond me. Bottom line is that was the decision of the creative director- @ZOS_RichLambert and it was a huge mistake that has put us at this point.

    That point they've taken us too is being the point where almost all my friends have already left for other games. And no @ZOS_RichLambert they didn't quit because- to quote you directly- "change is scary".
    Edited by FluffWit on July 23, 2022 9:08AM
  • Drammanoth
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    [snip]

    Much faith has been lost. And there does not seem to be an end to that.

    [edited for bashing]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 23, 2022 11:31AM
  • SerasWhip
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    can someone let me know of the main premise of this update and why it's such a hot topic?
    Edited by SerasWhip on July 23, 2022 11:24AM
    .
  • AcadianPaladin
    AcadianPaladin
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    Building a character on a foundation of shifting sands is frustrating.
    PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo
  • tactx
    tactx
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    MMO teams never do well with planning and goals. That's why they work for MMOs. Ready, shoot, ... aim? Except the aim never comes before the shot, and sadly never even after multiple shots.


    Edited by tactx on July 23, 2022 1:44PM
    “No one's happiness but my own is in my power to achieve or to destroy.” - John Galt, Atlas Shrugged
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