ZOS you are growing a toxic community

Mascen · July 2022

jecks33 wrote: »

Look at your forums, live streams, subreddits, etc... There are pvpers vs pvers, pvers vs pvpers, casual players vs end gamers, mid-players vs casuals, there are a lot of people happy if end game guilds disband, if end gamers left the game, hate towards content creators is growing, event the poeple who are testing things on pts for us get blamed.

Years back the Eso community was nice, not at this level of toxicity, I don't know what happened but seems that the major issues are 2:

1 Pvp and Pve aren't still balanced separately
2 Combat/Class balance & decisions

Players (at any level) are not your enemies, please stop trying to help one hurting someone else, at the end of the day we are all here to have fun.

My dude, this community is nowhere near toxic, its bobby sauce mild. Take a walk on the wild side to some of the other online communities and you'll see some real toxicity

Cryptor · July 2022

"years back"... your account was opened in mid 2019...

that aside, most people are great but any game that allows free play with no entry barrier is bound to suffer from toxicity a little more. overall it;s pretty nice out here. I like it, I like it a lot.

DMuehlhausen · July 2022

The reason the community is being toxic is just like in school anymore you can't be bullied without being cancelled.

I'm not saying worlds like EQ were perfect obviously you had your toxic people, but back then if you were a jerk people learned about who you were and you would just blackballed so it forced you not to be. Now you don't even have to communicate for most things, if you are a jerk and get removed you'll find another group or something quick enough so there is negative side of being toxic in any online community anymore really.

Aislinna · July 2022

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

There are a critical mass of folks here who have chose that niche and have an addiction to likes/awesomes/insightfuls and go after them by being contrarian forum lawyers. They spring up in every community. Those types and the genuine outright venomous sort it would be awfully calming to just click those folks and block them forever.

There are a few posters that constantly bring up my memories of when the 13 year old went through his "lawyer" phase; can't say they are good memories really.

MudcrabAttack · July 2022

I’m 50% PVEer / 50% RPer

There used to be toxic behavior at least once a week during the first few years as a role player, until housing came out. That eliminated 99% of all toxic behavior I’ve ever seen in-game

In PVE it’s really really rare, by comparison to the RP trolls of years ago. I’ve gotten over 10 thousand pledge keys from vet dungeon pug groups, and can count on one hand the number of social unicorns I’ve witnessed. It’s always something like the other dps rudely blaming a healer as they stand in stupid. My favorite had to be a fake tank who ran through a dungeon, didn’t aggro a thing, died, and then said you all shouldn’t be dying to stuff like that so easily, then left.

With trials groups it’s more of a mixed bag whether someone occasionally shows their anger, but they aren’t necessarily trying to ruin other peoples fun. I’ve been in a few trials guilds over the years, and I haven’t really seen what I’d consider toxic behavior in trials, but more from random discord chat topics, which has nothing to do with the game

Vulkunne · July 2022

jecks33 wrote: »

Look at your forums, live streams, subreddits, etc... There are pvpers vs pvers, pvers vs pvpers, casual players vs end gamers, mid-players vs casuals, there are a lot of people happy if end game guilds disband, if end gamers left the game, hate towards content creators is growing, event the poeple who are testing things on pts for us get blamed.

Years back the Eso community was nice, not at this level of toxicity, I don't know what happened but seems that the major issues are 2:

1 Pvp and Pve aren't still balanced separately
2 Combat/Class balance & decisions

Players (at any level) are not your enemies, please stop trying to help one hurting someone else, at the end of the day we are all here to have fun.

Here's how I see it and I'll be brief.

When the game shifted from a mandatory paid sub to free to play, that opened the flood gates. This was I think around the time Dark Brotherhood DLC came out. I almost immediately noticed attitudes changing for the worst and this is when I by and large turned off general public zone chat. But this also enabled people to try the game and sub so it wasn't the kiss of death but this is where the shift began.

Another big change came with One Tam which I'm not sure anymore if that was before or after the sub change but the changes in One Tam separated those who would become 'permanent' members of the game and those who wanted to move on. Many chose to leave but this also brought some back, not all changes were bad but not all were desirable.

Then things ran for a while and Summerset came out, everyone loved it and rightfully so. The DLC brought changes we all had wanted for a very long time and new abilities to pan thru. But then, Miremurk came out and shot Summerset in the head. This was the beginning of the dark cloud that has clung to the game since modern times. Mirelurk rolled back many of the changes we wanted.

Then the Devs decided that everything needed to be rebalanced from a 2D Spreadsheet perspective and that dark cloud ripped thru the community with alot of dmg getting scaled back, the monster sets nerfed, among other undesirable changes which sort of stripped the distinctiveness away from abilities and eventually some races as well in time.

So their new approach to weighing things from a 2D scale vs the traditional approach of each thing being unique (like the mythic items) is something that has caused people to value what they do less because the difference between classes in some cases is the click of a button to the right or left at the setup screen.

And then they drilled down deeper and started cleaning up things that made the classes themselves unique like DK Wings right? That ability was iconic and now no one cares about it, their idea of fixing it was basically eliminating it and replacing it with something that I haven't needed to use one time. And so this trend continued, each class, each race, the uniqueness got stripped away.

Then the mythic items came out, so overwhelmingly powerful that they have replaced alot of things. Kind of like how Amazon's rise caused many mom and pop businesses to close down. So why encourage people to think, to utilize their class to the utmost when I can just get one item and I don't have to care.

Thus, you have a community now of many people, which I'm not passing judgement as I've known many of you and had a great time in 4 man or PvP. However, one thing is clear that people no longer have to care and those that cared enough to try to develop a unique build get rewarded by having the power sapped out of it and basically forcing everyone into use the mythic items. Remember energy is never destroyed just transferred so the end result is you have a large percentile probably all using the same thing(s) but are -not- at the same skill level.

And there you are, people have been given so much power in an artificial manner that they really didn't work for and yet, reality has finally started setting in so these same folks feel cheated now because they are not on the same skill level as the people who did work hard and have been around for a minute. They want their rewards too without working hard or without acknowledging the skills, time and work that others have done to do well with end game content... Its like an I want I want I want gimme gimme gimme situation and the only way this is ever going to get fixed is for some real leadership to stand up, someone who understands people, who plays the game regularly and has a free hand to cut the fat out of the game. There are too many sets, too many options, too many things that have the same net results.

And this is the reason for all the salt from people towards the end game crowd because they are learning there is a limit to power, lack of skill still has consequences that one item cannot necessarily resolve. And by allowing such overpowered items to be so redily available, the devs have probably un-intentionally created a change in culture for the community as a whole and now people expect to be given everything. Thus, its left to the end game crown to set the bar and to essentially tell people 'no'. And this is the problem, this is the reason for all the salt and it started with what I feel was bad decisions on the way to this point.

The game is dying for leadership and better non-biased oversight to maintain balance. Adding new features and a fistful of new sets will not fix this problem it will just further exasperate existing problems and just serve to push the issue down the road until someone comes along with the ability to make meaningful change by carefully taking inventory and cleaning up this game.

jecks33 · July 2022

Cryptor wrote: »

"years back"... your account was opened in mid 2019...

that aside, most people are great but any game that allows free play with no entry barrier is bound to suffer from toxicity a little more. overall it;s pretty nice out here. I like it, I like it a lot.

I created this account in 2019 when I switched from ps4 to pc, I started playing in feb 2016. As a 6.5 years player can I say "years back"?

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

3 years of bad combat updates. When first dots was changed - buffed 2 times (because were weak) and then nerf 3 times - showed, that one who do this do not think using head.

Each next update only prove it.

So nothing really unexpected.

If you balance thingth randomly throwing a dice - you get thingth like now.

To balance thingth you need to use head at least a little.

alanmatillab16_ESO · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

3 years of bad combat updates. When first dots was changed - buffed 2 times (because were weak) and then nerf 3 times - showed, that one who do this do not think using head.

Each next update only prove it.

So nothing really unexpected.

If you balance thingth randomly throwing a dice - you get thingth like now.

To balance thingth you need to use head at least a little.

and which of those things is a reason to be a toxic player?

That said the culture on social media seems to be that anyone who doesn't completely agree with someone else is automatically being "toxic" or a "troll" whether or not they actually are.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

3 years of bad combat updates. When first dots was changed - buffed 2 times (because were weak) and then nerf 3 times - showed, that one who do this do not think using head.

Each next update only prove it.

So nothing really unexpected.

If you balance thingth randomly throwing a dice - you get thingth like now.

To balance thingth you need to use head at least a little.

and which of those things is a reason to be a toxic player?

That said the culture on social media seems to be that anyone who doesn't completely agree with someone else is automatically being "toxic" or a "troll" whether or not they actually are.

Say the truth = toxic for you ? ) Ok i am toxic than and even do not care ))) New definition of old words ? )))

alanmatillab16_ESO · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

? say the truth = toxic for you ? ) Ok i am toxic than and even do not care )))

Where did I say you were being toxic? I simply asked which of those actions you listed was a reason to be a toxic player then went on to mention the social media trend that anyone that disagees is being toxic. I didn't say anything about whether or not I agreed with you, which as it happens I actually do. Combat changes seem to be made randomly depending which meta shouts the loudest for nerfs to a particular class or ability.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

? say the truth = toxic for you ? ) Ok i am toxic than and even do not care )))

Where did I say you were being toxic? I simply asked which of those actions you listed was a reason to be a toxic player then went on to mention the social media trend that anyone that disagees is being toxic. I didn't say anything about whether or not I agreed with you, which as it happens I actually do. Combat changes seem to be made randomly depending which meta shouts the loudest for nerfs to a particular class or ability.

Ok sorry - i do not understand you )) My english seems to be even worse than i think )

But all i can say current PTS looks very bad.

Jimboo84 · July 2022

If people would ignore more then there wouldn't be any toxic environment.
Join a PVP Battleground and watch the comments, just filter out the good from the bad ones. What's the problem with using your brain and enjoying your own game.

I don't follow ESO via whatever social platform as Twitch, Twitter, ... I don't care for that. I play this game to enjoy, not to be busy with bad influences. If you don't like a game, leave it. ESO will notice it soon enough if their numbers go down if less people are logging in

shadyjane62 · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

? say the truth = toxic for you ? ) Ok i am toxic than and even do not care )))

Where did I say you were being toxic? I simply asked which of those actions you listed was a reason to be a toxic player then went on to mention the social media trend that anyone that disagees is being toxic. I didn't say anything about whether or not I agreed with you, which as it happens I actually do. Combat changes seem to be made randomly depending which meta shouts the loudest for nerfs to a particular class or ability.

Ok sorry - i do not understand you )) My english seems to be even worse than i think )

But all i can say current PTS looks very bad.

Your English may be a little rough but your mind is clearly on target. I enjoy reading your posts. Good Luck to you always.

asalemi · September 2022

I think the trial dummy has a part to play in this toxicity. It’s like high school. Almost every conversation on guildie discords centers around hitting the dummy and what the score is. The jocks show off there 100k and the little guys hitting 60-70 k thinking they still suck. Just look at the discords it’s all there. Middling and low end players are always starting from a position of weakness joining a trial guild . You have the cliques in the 100k club and will never do content with u and then the gatekeepers who ask for a portfolio or resume before u can even play.

INM · September 2022

asalemi wrote: »

I think the trial dummy has a part to play in this toxicity. It’s like high school. Almost every conversation on guildie discords centers around hitting the dummy and what the score is. The jocks show off there 100k and the little guys hitting 60-70 k thinking they still suck. Just look at the discords it’s all there. Middling and low end players are always starting from a position of weakness joining a trial guild . You have the cliques in the 100k club and will never do content with u and then the gatekeepers who ask for a portfolio or resume before u can even play.

Even before dummies were a thing, people were asking for DPS tests for any more or less serious raiding guild. No one would accept you just for being a chill dude even back then.

Androrix · September 2022

asalemi wrote: »

I think the trial dummy has a part to play in this toxicity. It’s like high school. Almost every conversation on guildie discords centers around hitting the dummy and what the score is. The jocks show off there 100k and the little guys hitting 60-70 k thinking they still suck. Just look at the discords it’s all there. Middling and low end players are always starting from a position of weakness joining a trial guild . You have the cliques in the 100k club and will never do content with u and then the gatekeepers who ask for a portfolio or resume before u can even play.

I think there is something to this. It also has made folk a bit one dimensional in assessing builds. The amount of DPS you do against a dummy does not always equate to performance in a combat scenario. It's a little like my friend who kept wanting to show me his awesome judo throws but insisted I wasn't allowed to move.

me_ming · September 2022

Pevey wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what's been said in this thread.

Personally, I don't see a lot of toxicity in the game itself (PC EU). Players are generally helpful to each other.
I do however see more toxic players on discord servers/guilds, and yes most of that is from "mid tier" players or players who complain that others are toxic/gatekeeping/refusing to carry them.

The forum does have it's part as well, because as Nomadic_Atmoran mentioned, people do come here to express criticism. I've played 5k+ hours and only recently joined the forum to express my views on the proposed combat changes. Several people seem to take "someone disagrees with me" as toxic behaviour though, and it just isn't.

Vaoh wrote: »

[snip]

This. So much this.

Agree 100%

A visual aid (not mine, just sharing):

Added note: It says toxic casual, but you could just as easily replace that with toxic elite. They are so much closer together than they think.
.

[edited to remove quote]

haha. This is so accurate. Having said that, I'm a returning player, started playing right after the lighting patch stopped sometime around 2017. I'd say I have been noticing that there were more helpful and patient people then, people were more than willing to stay and die over and over again just to complete a dungeon/trial. Now it's just all about "we just don't have the damage" then quit. Before people who stay on CoA forever just to kill Valkyn Skoria. And it was before Group Finder, so if someone has to go, someone in your group and go back to town and find someone to replace them with, not only that servers weren't merged yet, so you can only add someone who was in your own alliance. Completing it the first time around was super rewarding.

Do I think the community has become toxic because of ZoS? Yes, partly, since right now, it's just about damage, the more damage you have the less mechanics you have to do. And for you to min/max damage output, you have to have the latest gear. I mean, I'll admit it, having just gotten back to the game, I have gear from 4 years ago, so no I don't feel I could compete. I think it's sad that base game gears are just not reliable.

ForzaRammer · September 2022

asalemi wrote: »

I think the trial dummy has a part to play in this toxicity. It’s like high school. Almost every conversation on guildie discords centers around hitting the dummy and what the score is. The jocks show off there 100k and the little guys hitting 60-70 k thinking they still suck. Just look at the discords it’s all there. Middling and low end players are always starting from a position of weakness joining a trial guild . You have the cliques in the 100k club and will never do content with u and then the gatekeepers who ask for a portfolio or resume before u can even play.

Plenty trial guilds even large trade guilds let people who parse 70k-80k do easier ones like vss and vka.

You are taking about those who parse even less, which are people clearly not even trying.

Belegnole · September 2022

I haven't found many toxic people while playing. Yes, a few here and there. But not enough to worry about. This is from someone who does PvP to trials. So I'm not sure if there are any more toxic people or if more people are looking to be offended.

asalemi · September 2022

All good responses. I admit I’m a mid level guy. I can do 65-70 k and still can’t get on a vet team. I will keep searching guilds but all the ones I tried to get on r strict. I just wanna play some content. I don’t want hard mode , achievements etc. just finish some vet trials eg. VSS. Please don’t tell me my dps isn’t enough-it is. I don’t wear kilts , rings or whatever the geniuses upstairs say.
This is really sad. I’m only speaking hard truths. I know some people hate the truth but whatever
BTW is there proof that NEFAS actually runs with middlers. If so kudos. If not he’s just another “expert”

Kingsindarkness · September 2022

Nope...not taking the bait...

Good Day to you.

Gaebriel0410 · September 2022

Toxic behaviour can only be blamed on the one doing it imo. Not on the game, not on the community, not on the expectations, it's purely an individual choice. Being friendly or respectful by default isn't a lot of extra effort, but goes a long way.

Then again nowadays "toxic" has become such a buzzword that it basically has lost all its original meaning. It seems many people just use it in a way that means "someone who disagrees with me and doesn't change his or her viewpoint to align with me me me".

psychotrip · September 2022

barney2525 wrote: »

No Company creates Toxicity. If players don't like what they see, they leave.

Toxic Players create Toxicity.

This flies in the face of objective reality. Its part of a live service game's job to foster a positive community, as the community itself is an integral part of the game.

There are people who spend years learning how to foster a positive community and keep morale up. What you're saying literally doesn't make sense. Obviously the onus isn't ENTIRELY on the developers, but to act like community management isn't part of their job is patently absurd.

asalemi · September 2022

I think we r all looking for the same thing: A balanced satisfied community and balance in the game. I wish I had the answers. I really like the game and want to do well. Just wish there wasn’t so many roadblocks.
Yeah u do need some gate keeping but instead of doors opening I see more doors closing

zaria · September 2022

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

SgtSilock wrote: »

You're being very dramatic, I haven't seen much toxicity. But then again I spend most of my time playing the game, and only visit the forums when there is maintenance.

Agree, its an forum thing, in game we mostly talk about game stuff, but some think Okensoul is already nerfed.

Have you ever queued for a random dungeon? Come on now.

A lot, now I tend to run guild runs as in lots of great guilds.
But done pugs during this event, in random dungeon as in random normal nobody care about builds except then they get an dlc and people start wiping and the fake tanks and healers are pointed out, who start complaining about low dps while on dps builds themselves 😺
In reality is that people don't know mechanics but claiming they do as they are scared of getting kicked.
Pugged RND got nCOH2, one guy had no food and I pointed out multiple times with no reply and left as he would wipe the group repeatably on second last boss so pointless.

ixthUA · September 2022

I think there are 2 sources of the toxicity problem.
1. Youthful maximalism - younger people tend to overreact easily, and see everything as good or bad (100k dps good, 40k bad). Older people are much more calm and view things from several points of view. For example my magden does only 20k dps, but brings many buffs and debuffs to the team, and can heal well.
2. Playing too much, far past the point when it was fun. When playing, i ask myself - will i be satisfied after finishing a certain activity? And proceed only if answer is yes. Havent touched pvp and trials, as my answer is always no. Doing what you consider fun brings happiness if performed successfully, doing what you consider a must does not so.

Kiralyn2000 · September 2022

ZOS Online Games you are growing a toxic community

Fixed.

Online gaming, especially anything involving competition, has been "toxic" for decades.

I remember WoW's forums being full of "hardcore vs casual", "pve vs pvp", "griefer/ninja vs everyone", trolling, etc... back in the days of the first expansion. Stories of ranting lunatics in every online shooter, death threats & racism, etc. It's been a cesspit forever.

Online Disinhibition Effect/GIFT, overly competitive people (whether in PvE or PvP), and of course the increasing negativity of society in general, all contribute.

Redguards_Revenge · September 2022

barney2525 wrote: »

No Company creates Toxicity. If players don't like what they see, they leave.

Toxic Players create Toxicity.

You are wrong.

Arbit · September 2022

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ZOS Online Games you are growing a toxic community

Fixed.

Online gaming, especially anything involving competition, has been "toxic" for decades.

I remember WoW's forums being full of "hardcore vs casual", "pve vs pvp", "griefer/ninja vs everyone", trolling, etc... back in the days of the first expansion. Stories of ranting lunatics in every online shooter, death threats & racism, etc. It's been a cesspit forever.

Online Disinhibition Effect/GIFT, overly competitive people (whether in PvE or PvP), and of course the increasing negativity of society in general, all contribute.

Agreed. Competition is what breeds negativity. If it was a single player game like Skyrim we wouldn’t have such issues. Its generally why I don’t pvp where it’s strictly competition against other people. Honestly this is the least toxic game I know of. Perhaps some people are doing certain activities that expose them to more of it? This game has many modes and options for gameplay. So I can imagine why some people might get into a niche toxic community. Or maybe I’m just hanging in the niche wholesome community? Not sure.