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How bad is ESO at teaching you the game?

HanYolo
HanYolo
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With the recent patchnotes getting a horrible reception, the topic of ESO needing improved combat tutorials has been discussed a lot. Which made me remember my first char, who was an utterly useless heavy armor nightblade without any active set bonuses, because I didn’t know sets existed back then. So, getting better without the help of other players didn’t work for me back then and by the time of my second char I had a guild to help show me the ropes. But that was long ago, at the time of veteran ranks. So how does it look like now?
Surprisingly, there is a lot more help for newer players than I initially expected.

The little question mark in the menu bar has all the basics from the tutorial written down plus a lot of extra stuff that I knew but always looked up on third party websites.
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For example, the chances of abilities causing status effects, a list of all ability-based synergies and so on. There is a lot of information to be found about interaction, key binds, justice system and so. Honestly a lot better in terms of quantity and quality than I expected. This for example:

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Didn’t know that classification existed. Not incredibly useful but neat.

My only gripe would be that it took me 10000+ hours to find this section. I don’t know if a new character gets any form of hint to look there for information but that I only found out about it now is telling in its own way, I guess.
Back on topic: the focus of this post is to see how effectively ESO teaches you the basics of combat and this is where the first problems start to show.

Obviously the topic of animation canceling is nowhere to be found, which was expected.

There is no mention of penetration or resistances, while being arguably THE most important stats for PvE and PvP.

One thing that stood out to me was the lack of explanation on ultimates. Not a word about how to gain ultimate power. A single line that light and heavy attacks or healing allies generates ultimate would be really important.

Coming to the main topic of why I’m writing this: There is ZERO explanation about the three roles. I want to focus not solely on DPS like ZOS did for some reason, because if you want to close the skill gap only doing that for one role won’t do it. Why their focus is so narrow on this eludes me entirely.
So, back to what the game teaches you: Not a single word about what is expected of you if you call yourself a tank or a healer. A common complaint on these forums are fake tanks in the dungeon que, and there are a lot of players that just flag themselves as tanks to skip the quetime. But there is also a decent number of players who actually try to heal or tank and have just no clue how to do it. Mainly because there is no explanation whatsoever. As leader of a rather large social guild, I can’t count the number of times people came asking for help because they were thrown out of dungeons, not because the were unwilling to do their job properly but because they just didn’t know how. It reached a point where I just wrote a document with the most fundamental basics for every role. For example, the priority list for Tanks:

1. Stay alive
2. Keep boss aggro with a taunt
3. Keep the boss in one place, facing away from your group
4. Pull and cc smaller adds
5. Buff your groups damage

Just a little orientation like that goes a long way and why it is not done by the game itself is beyond me. No need for extensive talk about BIS sets, buffs, debuffs etc. just the bare basics. If one wanted to do a bit more: a training dummy for tanks and healers would help tremendously. Just a small challenge along the lines of “heal x dmg in x seconds” or “tank x damage over x seconds”. Don’t put it in the crown store, just make it part of some advanced combat training hosted by the undaunted or something like that. Super basic stuff. If you really want to do something for the dungeon finder, make the tank and healer dummys a little challenging and a requirement for vet DLC dungeons. I would welcome any incentive for players to engage with their class and role but I do understand that not everybody wants to and a requirement like that would be very out of character for ZOS and thus be highly unlikely.

I left out the DDs until now because that problem is not as easily addressed, even on a basic level. I think that there is a desperate need for an advanced combat tutorial for all roles that includes animation cancelling, uptimes, penetration and so on. It is necessary because for a DPS it increases their effectiveness by a lot more than it does for a tank or healer. The recommended skills for every class that get shown to you while leveling already go a part of the way but are not enough. Because what many people in ESO have to learn is this: how well you use your skills is much more important than the actual skills and gear could ever be. Many expect the right build to do the work for them but in reality, the difference between a good and a bad player is almost exclusively in front of the screen and not in the build. ESO seems to be the outlier in this regard and many players coming from other games have misleading expectations about that aspect of the game, yet it is the main point that makes ESO stand out and makes an advanced combat tutorial all the more important.

Interestingly enough, ZOS said in a recent stream that the topic of and advanced combat tutorial has been discussed and postponed because they would need to update it every large patch. Which is quite the ironic statement considering that the player base has been begging them for multiple patches now to stop with the huge changes that completely turn combat upside down every time. Seems like quite an easy fix. So simple, if one were to listen to one’s players. But I digress. Apart from that, it is completely possible to write a guide that teaches the basics and stays relevant over the different patches, simply by sticking to the fundamental core mechanics. I know that for sure because I did it myself for the newcomers in my guild.

In conclusion the ESO is not terrible at teaching players the game, just at teaching the combat. And even there, a few small improvements could help A LOT to finally “raise the floor” as ZOS likes to put it. Much more than any Oakensoul or light attack nerf ever could. It seems like a lot to gain for very little effort. At least much less effort than to rework combat 8 years into the games life cycle and getting justified criticism for it.
  • shadyjane62
    shadyjane62
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    Been here 8 years, just learned how to bank tel var stones.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    My first character was a MagDK with heavy armor, one hand and shield, and attribute points evenly spread between health and magicka. Which would have been great if I was trying to tank, but I was questing like this was Skyrim...

    I did not learn about food buffs until I had Veteran ranks, so at least that's something the level up advisor gives new players early now!
    Edited by VaranisArano on July 19, 2022 6:56PM
  • doesurmindglow
    doesurmindglow
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    A lot of the in-game information tends to be presented as brief pop-ups the first time you use something relevant to the tip, which many players turn off in settings, and most don't even remember.

    I think some of the things you identify here as "missing" actually are provided that way. The problem is you're still spot on -- it virtually is "missing" if that's the only tutorial or in-game guidance anyone gets. The popup disappears quickly, is noticed rarely, and doesn't provide nearly the lasting impact of a tutorial quest or meaningful playthrough experience.

    There's also the sense that some core game mechanics -- such as animation canceling -- are basically unintended and ZOS would prefer they didn't exist if they could figure out how to code them out without breaking everything, so the last thing in the world they want to do is codify their "mistake" in the form of a combat tutorial. But I really wish they'd let this mentality go. Animation canceling is here to stay, and many of their players find it fun; at this point it needs to be embraced and tutorialized.

    Basically the game farms most all of its combat tutorials out to content creators and addon developers, both of whom are usually volunteers, and I'm pretty sure that's a much bigger source of "skill gap" than any of the games' actual mechanics.
    Guildmaster : The Wild Hunt (formerly Aka Baka) : AD PC/NA
  • endgamesmug
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    I absolutely cringe at how i was 2015-2016, i didnt have a clue being a sorc heavy attacking everything. Still doing that when i ran vma back then 😆.i had to figure out everything through trial and error mainly through many deaths for years in pvp up until 2018. The competency i have nowadays has literally taken years, i dont think i did any light attacking for most if that time. I only found out about monster sets after doing my first trial as main tank in histbark/willows path and 2 piece for recovery, offtank had bloodspawn which had a chance at dropping and that they had just come out a few days before.
  • Alchemical
    Alchemical
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    I love the game, but it is abhorrent at teaching you the 'right' way to do things, which I suspect is intentional. They don't want to dictate how you should play, which is admirable, but this should be a philosophy applied to how they teach players, rather than an excuse to not teach some of the concepts of combat. The tutorials teach you concepts like light attacking, blocking, and rolling, but don't address things like status effects or buffs, which becomes VERY important once you get towards your powercap at 160cp. And by then you'll be expected to have already picked these things up by the player base, even though things like overland questing will never require fine or even mediocre understanding of these mechanics. You could for sure go back and make some content harder (which is what DPS nerfs seem to want to do), but that won't fix the problem of player ignorance.

    There should for sure be 'intermediate' and 'advanced' tutorials that are available in some aggressively obvious place, like a Fighter's Guild with an NPC that will flag you down if you haven't finished them on at least one character. It should cover things that are generic but essential like consumables, set bonuses, cooldowns, synergies, timers (buffs, DoTs, HoTs), status effects, and how these things effect your damage or survivability. Otherwise, of course new players wouldn't see the value of 8 seconds of minor brutality, when they could just use another damaging skill. They don't know how much extra damage they're going to get and may not be inclined to read a massive player-written article to learn.

    You can tell people "you should be using buffs and paying attention to your cool downs" without it coming across as 'telling people how to play'. I hope they consider that when talking about accessibility and opening up content, because the game is very dense with mechanics and while none of them are particularly hard, the unwillingness of the game to be forthcoming with ways to improve adds to the knowledge gap that keeps people out of content.
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    Some things in ESO are there but not in your face.

    Hover your mouse over weapon damage for instance and it'll tell you exactly what it effects, same with stamina/magicka, spell damage, penetration, etc.

    The help menu is useful, especially when it comes to things like status effects, but there're some things not in the help menu that really should be there.

    Also add in the fact nobody reads the manual, nobody reads the attributes and stats, and nobody was really paying attention to the tutorial and you get a lot of bad information floating around.

    I have taught a lot of people have to play this game, and it is the same story every single time. They don't know because they didn't know where to look, and the game really doesn't tell you that either.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Finedaible
    Finedaible
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    The "Difficulty" bars are a lie though. There are places like certain quests where it will give you the biggest hp bar possible with all the garnish and pips and then it gets melted down like overland trash... Like it's not anywhere consistent or indicative of how much armor it has.
  • Carcamongus
    Carcamongus
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    I started playing not long after the game's launch and I was absurdly clueless. To be fair, I can't even remember if there were help tips back then. I chose to be a tank mostly because years of playing Super Mario had led me to consider dying abhorrent. I didn't slot a taunt because I thought it wasn't a good idea to get the big bad fellows' attention. I learned from getting beat up repeatedly and from other players, one of whom was kind enough to politely explain I should taunt. For a long while my gear was whatever dropped from enemies or quest rewards. I eventually discovered the wonderful world of sets and did some research on UESP to figure out what would suit me (this was way easier back then because there weren't as many options). I ended up crafting my gear, and one of the sets was Vampire's Kiss.

    I don't complain about my long learning process, but nowadays the game's far bigger and more complex than it was 8 years ago and I often see new players a bit overwhelmed by all the details.

    My guess is that almost no one checks what the big ? is and perhaps an NPC that offers some guidance through a quest and then points out the in-game help window (I know that'd be a breach of the 4th wall, but as long as it works...). There's something similar to that with ToT, though it's far too short and doesn't explain enough.
    Imperial DK and Necro tank. PC/NA
    "Nothing is so bad that it can't get any worse." (Brazilian saying)
  • danno8
    danno8
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    For an example on how a tutorial is done well (at least in regards to combat and roles) here is a video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T49RWWAhAfY

    Now ESO is not FF14 and it would need to be quite different but the basics are all still there.

    DPS:Avoiding red, moving around, using skills, LA, HA at proper times, weaving, typical stats and armor used
    Tank: Avoiding red, moving around,Interrupting, taunting, debuffing, typical stats and armor used
    Healing: Avoiding red, moving around, Buffing, healing, typical stats and armor used, leaving DPS to die when they stand in red (lol)

    Weaving, blocking, avoiding red etc are all common skills that could even be in a "basic combat" tutorial, before moving on to more "role" oriented tutorials.
  • Destai
    Destai
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    I just got a friend into the game and he's struggling to understand why things are as they are. A lot of his concerns are around understand what certain mats are, how to build his skills up, and navigating the confusion around what's DLC/ESO Plus, etc. content.

    We haven't even touched weaving yet.
  • DMuehlhausen
    DMuehlhausen
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    How much do you have to learn really when every classes uses 4-7 of the same skills and they are basically just spammable?

    After that it's don't stand in big red dumb and you're fine.
  • dem0n1k
    dem0n1k
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    My first character was a heavy armour DK with no sets (pre-One Tamriel), no idea about animation cancelling, no idea about rotation & only healed with potions XD Yet, with 3 other friends that were similarly clueless & badly geared, we did dungeons & PVP & had a great time. We didn't have a 'tank' or a 'healer'... just 4 players that did damage & healed themselves... yet we completed most of the base game dungeons together & through that experience (& some PVP) we learned how to play better, about roles, about sets etc.

    The game showed us through having to pass encounters that we found difficult, that there was room for improvement & we learned more through asking more experienced players in-game & checking youtube videos & the like. I personally don't think it's up to game makers to provide every single detail about every combat nuance. Some details need to be discovered by trial & error, asking for help from more experienced players or just a little bit of online 'research'.
    NA Server [PC] -- Mostly Ebonheart Pact, Mostly.
  • Sparxlost
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    it does mostly fine with combat i dont think it HAS to teach you to light weave or animation cancel but maybe should give players a vague rundown of building their character for specific roles rather than their advised skill system just blindly taking them through life...

    assuming most people care to really get into a game the tutorial could be better
    but if you just want to jump in and play without handholding then it doesnt matter at all really i guess it is fine
  • Amottica
    Amottica
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    There is already a guide for choosing skills for particular types of builds, but most of the people doing low damage are probably not heeding it too much.

    A guide to help gear up for certain activities would be beneficial but only to those who would pay attention and heed the suggestions.

    Weaving basic attacks are not required to do decent DPS, yet many fall short of the mark and seemingly ignore the information n the game does provide. So the real issue is how to motivate these players.
  • kargen27
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    I've been here since the beginning and my first character was an absolute disaster. You couldn't pick a worse race/role/resources combo if you tried. I almost quit when I couldn't get past Doshia. I was having to sneak past the scamps just to get to her.
    Then someone in zone asked how to defeat her and several people replied with suggestions. One of them worked for me and I decided to stick around. Joined a guild and everything got a lot better.

    I'm okay with the game as it is teaching new players what is going on. Once I knew there was other players that could/would help me when I struggled trying to figure things out on my own first got a lot more fun.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • FluffyReachWitch
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    I think ESO’s in-game teaching is a bit of a mixed bag. It’s alright at telling you the basic mechanics that you’re intended to use if you’re adventuring by yourself, as if you were playing a single player TES. The issue is that the mechanics the combat tutorial teaches (especially heavy attacking) aren’t as effective as those encouraged by the metagame. Come to think of it, I’m pretty sure I’ve never been asked to think about a target being Off Balance in endgame PvE either.

    The Level Up Advisor was probably meant to alleviate the problem of players not understanding dungeon roles, but of course those builds are more like guidelines.
  • Kalithiur_Dragoni
    I did my own research on websites and youtube videos before even starting, and then later during my eso journey. I think a lot of things aren't explained in-game, but thankfully there is a lot of info online.
  • Troodon80
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    HanYolo wrote: »
    My only gripe would be that it took me 10000+ hours to find this section. I don’t know if a new character gets any form of hint to look there for information but that I only found out about it now is telling in its own way, I guess.
    I've mentioned this so many times, it's unreal. I'd wager the vast majority of players don't even know this exists in-game. It has a lot of information, but it's also lacking the more hands-on stuff. For abilities, it basically says "you can slot abilities" but doesn't say why you should even bother. Can I do more damage? Do I have heals? Will they help in some way? Who knows, work if out yourself.

    The in-game help section is both the best source of information within the game and singularly the least known about.

    The in-game tutorial itself is possibly one of the worst I've ever seen in any game, let alone specfically an MMO. As above, the tutorial doesn't even touch on using abilities. It's light attacks, heavy attacks, bashing, blocking, and, weirdly, even a nod toward off-balace (something that people outside of end game groups are unlikely to even care about, let alone be able to track and utilise). When I first joined ESO all those years ago, I was expecting Skyrim Online and boy was I mistaken. I came back a couple years later to see it flourishing, but the learning curve was still there. I learned everything I know through others in-game and through sheer force of will and perseverance, striving only to be the best I can be in-game (though I don't care about competing, it's purely self-/personal progression). If one is expecting Skryim, I can definitely see why they would be turned off with the combat, and the in-game help/tutorial does nothing to help with that.

    Also, I saw you earlier in Depths of Malatar. Don't often see people in-game and on the forum. Hello. :smiley:

    @Troodon80 PC | EU
    Guild: N&S
    Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
    Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics
  • BretonMage
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    There should at the very least be a tutorial on fulfilling group roles. This is information that is available nowhere in-game, and is something that seems to impact the dungeon experience for many people.
  • Indigogo
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    Definitely agree. I want to see in game optional battle hints upgraded to behave more like some of the mods pc has. That would be an enormous help.

    Block in 3, 2, 1..
    Poison phase incoming....
    Target ghosts/orbs... etc

    Clear, basic instructions on the screen, in real time, for those who struggle with mechanics.
  • BretonMage
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    Indigogo wrote: »
    Definitely agree. I want to see in game optional battle hints upgraded to behave more like some of the mods pc has. That would be an enormous help.

    Block in 3, 2, 1..
    Poison phase incoming....
    Target ghosts/orbs... etc

    Clear, basic instructions on the screen, in real time, for those who struggle with mechanics.

    That would be great. Especially the first time you do a particular dungeon.
  • MidniteOwl1913
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    Very bad, almost completely useless. So bad I'm not even sure they understand the problem.
    PS5/NA
  • francesinhalover
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    Idk, i opened eso mid 2017, made a stam nightblade, opened deltias guide, than alcast , and had a horribleeee time.

    Eventually i do dungs and a player told me to light attack before skills and i really couldnt pull it off. Took me months.

    i was dying on db quests, coldharbor etc. Hated how the game felt.
    Why was everything mag and no stam morphs? i was forced to pvp for vigor and still died constantly.

    And than i go sorc stam for a easier life, but the previous dmg to my experience had been done already.

    I start grinding vo so i can do trials like vmol and when i finaly have vo, used all transmute geodes...relequen releases.
    and than puff bound armaments gets destroyed also becoming a tank skill.

    And i quit eso.

    ---

    Now though, people can use mag skills to heal, there's more morphs, 500 max transmute geodes that are easy to have, curated gear making grinding easier.
    Several sets that do good dmg, outfit stations, more dmg, better cp...

    Eso is just easier and kept me playing since 2020.

    The issue is... Nothing in game tells us to light attack btw skills.
    Edited by francesinhalover on July 20, 2022 4:22AM
    I am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
    Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!
  • katanagirl1
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    My first toon was a stamblade wearing heavy armor too. I couldn’t do much damage and took so much damage while trying. I didn’t have a clue about a skill rotation. I used endless hail on some enemies and it didn’t seem to do much damage so I mostly spammed snipe. I used Shadowy Disguise to sneak around enemies a lot too. This was all solo overland stuff.

    Now I know about these things and do much better, but even though I light attack between skills I still have low dps. So it’s more than just light attacking in between. I guess there is no way to teach just when to do the light attack. That, or I will never be a human metronome.

    I am not sure all of these things could be included in an in-game tutorial. You could instead refer the player to find an online build for their class but honestly, I looked up an updated guide for my main recently and if you pick 5 different players who promote builds you get 5 very different builds. That’s not terribly helpful either.
    Khajiit Stamblade main
    Dark Elf Magsorc
    Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
    Orc Stamplar PVP
    Breton Magsorc PVP
    Dark Elf Necromancer
    Dark Elf Magden
    Khajiit Stamblade
    Khajiit Stamina Arcanist

    PS5 NA
  • AvalonRanger
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    [1]
    Beginner tutorial is too much dated. Nothing change from 2014.
    There're too much of new mech out there already, but most of it
    will NOT explain at the beginner tutorial contents.

    [2]
    New dungeon mech UI should be explained at the start point at the dungeon.
    (<example> green small circle change your shape and power,
    some AoE design has lethal damage. Some AoE is buff up your combat power. etc)

    Some game flow design in group mission is really terrible. Especially
    in DLC dungeon (or Banishing Cell2, Crypt of hearts2) There must be something
    demo event scene at the start point with NPC character to explain what hell
    happen in specific situation for the newbie players.

    For example the FrostVault group dungeon. That mouse transforming mech should be
    at the entrance of the dungeon. But actually it show up at the last boss fighting.
    That's very strange. Stone Garden show us those mech before the last combat, (but no
    warning about poison gas though). Just do that at the every dungeon, right?

    Moreover...

    There're too many of nonsense Instant death everywhere in this game,
    well... it's simply terrible game design. Many people complain about this.

    One of reason of this is bad UI design. I mention this many times though.
    ESO UI design looks like very abstractive art sense. Most of newbie player
    can't understand meaning of it.
    (I also still can't understand some UI meaning of group dungeon after
    3 years from start ESO.)

    [3]
    Had better stop making new UI design, just re-use same UI design for the
    future contents. If player encount familiar UI which had already showed up other place,
    then people can handle situation more naturally.


    My playing time Mon-Friday UTC13:00-16:00 [PC-NA] CP over2000 now.
    I'm Tank and Healer main player.
  • merpins
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    ZoS? Teaching us the game? Never heard of it! Tells us the systems and how to heavy attack, light attack, and how to put stuff on our bar. Other than that, it just throws you into the world and says "Go." This is why newer players struggle at the combat, and many think it's too hard.

    ZoS should do an optional tutorial. Make it related to the Alliance War storyline, call it boot camp, and stick the NPC that starts the quest and takes you where right next to where new players spawn-in when they first get into the game. Make like 3 new NPCs for each faction, one of each race, and have them voiced by the ESO youtuber and twitch streaming community as a nod to how they've been the ones teaching the game to players the whole time. Grab Deltia, Nefas, Skinny Cheeks, Brah We got This, Sawman UK, Alcast, Hack the Minotaur, Lucky Ghost, and like Arttea or Fextralife, and have each of them voice a different race and teach a couple different mechanics. The lines they say can even be identical across alliances for what their NPC teaches, but having them be unique to each alliance would be great. Teach weaving, heavy attacks and how they work, builds and how they work, setting up your bar optimally, rotations, etc. Then put a reward at the end that actually incentivizes players to do it, like a 3m test dummy or a couple of skill points.
    Edited by merpins on July 20, 2022 6:52AM
  • barney2525
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    I have no idea.

    The very first thing I do is shut off the Tutorials.

    Probably a Lot of players are in this boat.

    :#
  • redlink1979
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    My first character was a MagDK with heavy armor, one hand and shield, and attribute points evenly spread between health and magicka. Which would have been great if I was trying to tank, but I was questing like this was Skyrim... (...)
    Same here
    cosmo-kramer-laughing-ponu7cn1fyrq1dp3.gif
    "Sweet Mother, sweet Mother, send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"
    • Sons of the Night Mother | VforVendetta | Grownups Gaming EU | English Elders [PS][EU] 2500 CP
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    • SweetTrolls | Spring Rose | Daggerfall Royal Legion | Tinnitus Delux [PC][EU] 2525 CP
    • Bacon Rats | Silverlight Brotherhood | Canis Root Tea Party | Vincula Doloris [PC][NA] 2300 CP
  • Sarannah
    Sarannah
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    Indigogo wrote: »
    Definitely agree. I want to see in game optional battle hints upgraded to behave more like some of the mods pc has. That would be an enormous help.

    Block in 3, 2, 1..
    Poison phase incoming....
    Target ghosts/orbs... etc

    Clear, basic instructions on the screen, in real time, for those who struggle with mechanics.
    Agreed 100%! Have posted this myself some time ago as well. There are just too many dungeons, bosses, and mechanics to remember all of them. Even if I have seen them a 1000 times before, I can still forget sometimes(no add-ons). And ZOS keeps releasing more and more dungeons, so this problem will only get worse and worse.

    If ZOS is going to write up in the help pages about the different roles, they should also enforce them in the dungeonfinder. Both things they should have done already.
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