Have class homogenization and combat hybridization made ESO better or worse?

BloodMagicLord · July 2022

Class homogenization is the ongoing process of making classes more similar and includes the standardization of various abilities
Hybridization is the system by which skill tooltips will now always scale from your highest offensive stat in most cases, regardless of their mag/stam type.

BloodMagicLord · July 2022

I think they are both bad

Personally I think a lot of aspects of the game feel more "samey" than they used to, build and class choices in a lot of cases don't even seem to matter that much, when everyone can do everything. The problem is made worse with OP DLC sets completely outpowering everything else making "cool" builds not viable as they used to be a long time ago (thinking pre Summerset). Example of what I mean by an interesting build that's also viable would be venomous serpent heavy attack Stam DK, which was a thing back in 2017 or something.

LordDragonMara · July 2022

I think they are both bad

Both are terrible !!!

Riptide · July 2022

Neutral/don't care

It doesn’t in practice really streamline or depreciate my own experience, but I don’t think its a net value add for the game either.

Fair bit of community heartburn and manpower spend for at best a break even net effect, in my view but shrug.

Starlight_Knight · July 2022

I think they are both bad

I hate the homogenization and every change that contributes towards it.

Just simple things like can you remember when dragon knights used to be able to enchant eveyones weapons with fire and now its just major brutality that is up anyway...

Just to name one.

DreamyLu · July 2022

Neutral/don't care

It has zero impact for me the way I play. I can't tell.

Dragonlord573 · July 2022

I like hybridization only

Hybridization gives players more options to work with and I prefer it that way, but making every class feel and hit the same removes their identity.

DTStormfox · July 2022

I think they are both bad

Class homogenization makes different classes obsolete
Combat hybridization makes ability variation obsolete.

EdmondDontes · July 2022

I think they are both bad

Catering to the casuals instead of the long time vet players, vets who have paid more into the game than anyone else, is hurting the game more and more with every update and expansion.

Soarora · July 2022

I like hybridization only

I LOVE hybridization, I was building hybrid before so it just made me more viable which is fantastic. Plus, I had never been sure on how you build stam in builds when most abilities cost magicka.

That doesn’t mean everything should be the same, though. I think there are still enough differences between mag and stam to warrant them being different because of sustain. (Mostly in regards to spammables to be fair, but I think the meta shouldn’t be used to determine that hybridization is bad. No one ever had to use dw/2h on mag if they didn’t want to.)

Class-wise, I feel the homogenization might have to do with trial teams asking for specific classes but… at that point you already have multiple dps anyway, it most likely doesn’t block people from entering into the roster. Classes need to keep their identity, or then there is no point in having multiple dps. Personally, I do think classes still have identity now but I haven’t had a good look at what they were before and I don’t want them becoming the same in the future.

Heartrage · July 2022

I like hybridization only

While I think hybridization needs adjustments, I do think it was a good move to promote a diversity for most players with unoptimized builds. Ideally, I would have liked more skills/morphs/classes for the same reason, but I understand that they can’t do it right now.

As for class homogenization, I think it wasn’t too bad to give every classes the same base tools with some variations. However, I think adding new class skills/morphs to add class personality and more unique is needed.

Oakenaxe · July 2022

I think they are both bad

In RPGs, I like when each class has unique contributions. It builds identity. Also, the hybridization of mag/stam feels very weird to me. Not a big fan.

Ratzkifal · July 2022

I think they are both bad

I can understand the homogenization. They did that and said that they would expand class identity upon that foundation once they know everything to be balanced from being the same across classes. That made sense to me at the time, when the combat team had just been restructured, and it sounds like a logical step in a process towards actual improvement.
But now that they are tackling hybridization as well, I feel the goal of expanding on class identity is drifting further and further away, because they can never get closer to balance as they keep changing everything to hybridize more.

The hybridization was always a bad idea in my opinion. They should have made hybrid builds viable, not forced everyone to be hybrid. A solider who does nothing but physical training every day is just as great at magic as a magician who has been dedicating his life to it - this is the current state of the game and I hate it. I want people to be able to choose to go hybrid, perhaps by taking a slottable Fitness CP or something. But if you have nothing to give up for being a hybrid, having no opportunity cost attached to it, it means that everyone will just cherrypick the best from stamina and magicka and leave us with only one optimal spec rather than a magicka, stamina and hybrid variant of a class - that kills diversity and replayability.
So not only does it make no sense from a roleplaying perspective, it's actively harmful to the game's health and speeds up game fatigue rather than slowing it down.

Tevalicious · July 2022

I think they are both good

I understand people's desire to have each class be distinct, and I do not think we have lost that. There are buss that only one class has access to: Templar minor sorc, DK group major sorc and brut and minor brut, sorc minor prophecy, NB minor savage, Necro major vuln ult, warden group armor buff and minor toughness. These and others are all things that make these classes distinct and will always grantee them a spot in most comps (I speak more for organized pvp but same can be said for a lot of PvE im sure). Classes while more similar in capability are still distinct in abilities, ults, and passives. I main healer in PvP and I love the fact that I can throw my healer build on any class and make it work quite easily. Each class should have the freedom to fill any role if people want to. I also do some casual PvE dps. It is really easy for me to throw bahsei, kinera, and harpooner on any of my toons and do avenge dps. These are all good things and promote the exploration of every class instead of people just sticking to one the fills a roll the best because they are too different. As for hybridization, I think it was a cool change that work, but they need to go ahead and combine stats. We shouldn't have weapon damage and spell damage at this point. They can give classes with minor brut or sorc different and equally valuable passives. Having 2 types of damage is kind of pointless now. Same with crit.

BloodMagicLord · July 2022

I think they are both bad

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I can understand the homogenization. They did that and said that they would expand class identity upon that foundation once they know everything to be balanced from being the same across classes. That made sense to me at the time, when the combat team had just been restructured, and it sounds like a logical step in a process towards actual improvement.
But now that they are tackling hybridization as well, I feel the goal of expanding on class identity is drifting further and further away, because they can never get closer to balance as they keep changing everything to hybridize more.

The hybridization was always a bad idea in my opinion. They should have made hybrid builds viable, not forced everyone to be hybrid. A solider who does nothing but physical training every day is just as great as a magician who has been dedicating his life to magic - this is the current state of the game and I hate it. I want people to be able to choose to go hybrid, perhaps by taking a slottable Fitness CP or something. But if you have nothing to give up for being a hybrid, having no opportunity cost attached to it, it means that everyone will just cherrypick the best from stamina and magicka and leave us with only one optimal spec rather than a magicka, stamina and hybrid variant of a class - that kills diversity and replayability.
So not only does it make no sense from a roleplaying perspective, it's actively harmful to the game's health and speeds up game fatigue rather than slowing it down.

Couldn't have summed it up much better myself.

StamPlar_1976 · July 2022

I think they are both bad

It is why I quit three years ago and just troll the forums. They are both 🗑️

Jordan.nick11b14_ESO · July 2022

I think they are both bad

Well, I voted. I loathe homogenization and revel in class diversities. But, it's not like my opinion matters.
But dumbing content down to the lowest common denominators they're really not pleasing anyone, sadly.

These lower skill players who fumble through basic mechanics rarely stick around to learn anything and just hop from game to game anyway. By shunning those who like complexity and pushing homogenization changes down our collective throats many are left asking themselves why they're even playing this anymore...which, judging by the population declines some have found their answers.

francesinhalover · July 2022

I think they are both good

I find the game more fun now.

Vaoh · July 2022

I think they are both bad

Hybridization can be a very good. ZOS just did a poor job with implementation, causing there to be less actual build variety and classes sometimes feel sloppily put together. We also still have deprecated stats (Weapon vs Spell Damage) in the game..... way to confuse new players.

Pros
• Opens up many options and power fantasies for players to have fun with
• Allows classes to feel more like their “class” rather than a weapons-only build when playing a Stamina-focused character
• Less complicated to understand stat-wise.
• Can be a perfect system if more modifiers to specific damage were introduced.

Cons
• ZOS has not introduced any new %damage type modifiers, causing damage types not to matter. You cannot specialize, which in turn causes class builds to all end up the same. There are clear “best” builds.
• Many class abilities only became Stamina abilities for the sake of giving options to Stamina builds. When ZOS introduced homogenization, they did not update damage types, such as Biting Jabs being Physical instead of Magic.
• Many character stats are now heavily deprecated. Ex: There is no point in Spell Damage vs Weapon Damage. It’s extremely sloppy.

Homogenization is by far the most destructive thing ZOS has ever done to their game. There’s no real benefit. Nothing else comes close to hurting the game more besides Cyrodiil lag for PvPers.

Pros
• Each class can perform efficiently enough at each role to clear all content.
• A spreadsheet can be used to easily balance content, classes, and sets.

Cons
• It is boring to standardize all ability types. Spammables deal the same X Damage, with one unique effect. In U35 all dots will become 20sec. Ex: Stamcro uses Silver Shards instead of Venom Skull.
• New classes are now pointless. They will play the same as the current classes but with new animations.
• The more experienced you become at the game, the less options you realize you have. All rotations end up the same, and there is a clear “best” way to be playing.
• Small differences based on passives or just a few class abilities cause some classes to be outright better at roles than others, which translates the “all classes can do all roles statement” into “you will play these 1-2 classes for these roles because it is outright better”, ruining the whole point of homogenization.
• Has terrible implications for replaying the game or leveling a different class to DPS on, since the experience will be very similar.
• Puts new mechanics, such as abilities manipulating the environment, on the back burner

They lost Nick Konkle who was their original combat lead, and ever since then they have been stumbling along trying to find a good combat direction. Imo this is a total understandable situation and they deserve time to experiment in order to make the game better.

However, after 8 years they have proven to have no idea what to do and are still trying new drastic swinging changes. Update 35 is only the most recent example.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Have class homogenization and combat hybridization made ESO better or worse?

Have class homogenization and combat hybridization made ESO better or worse? 86 votes