Zos: you are over-thinking this.

FantasticFreddie · July 2022

If you want to raise the floor, and close the gap between the floor and ceiling, and think it would be nice to do this without alienating your endgame player base, there is a really easy and simple way to do this: buff heavy attacks.

I don't know the exact amount of damage heavy attacks do, but if you gave them a base buff of say 5, maybe 10%, and then encouraged people to build for this, you would have some really player friendly floor raising going on. A some ideas:
Buff existing heavy attacks sets
Slottable CP stars, that are easily accessible and rank up 5 times, so people are encouraged to use their CP for their heavy attack builds.
Separate passives for light attack and heavy attack damage buffs, make those be stars that rank up and cost like 50 CP each as well.
A 50 CP slottable that adds a single second of duration to your DOTS
Craftable or overland sets that are geared for heavy attack play.

A person struggling with mobility issues could use their 2 5 piece sets, their CP stars, and the new Oakensoul ring, and while they would not be "meta" or ready to scorepush Planesbreaker, they would be in significantly better shape than even 6 months ago. No need to weave or struggle with bar swaps and still get decent damage would open up whole new areas of play for players that either don't have the time to devote to weaving, or physically struggle with it.
And best of all, virtually NONE of these suggested changes would have any impact on current endgame or meta. Your floor is raised, the gap is narrowed, and the ceiling remains untouched. Everyone is happy.

Br1ckst0n · July 2022

All of these combat changes to raise the floor are pointless either way because non skilled players lay dead on the floor because they cant play the boss mechanics of the relevant pve content.

Heavy attack/Oakensoal builds are super easy to play and yield great damage.

And lastly making ground dots do less dps just sucks for everybody in fights where the boss moves around.

FantasticFreddie · July 2022

Yep. The ones Zos are suggesting are overly complex and just plain bad. Buffing heavy attacks is simple and effective.
The only one of my suggestions that *might* make it to end game is the CP slottable that extends dots by 1 second, but unless they nerf some of the existing stars I doubt it.

Buffing heavy attacks in this way would achieve everything they say they want to achieve with literally 0 down side.

Yakidafi · July 2022

This is funny from a PvP perspective what you propose

U35 changes will probably kill heavy attack builds completely there. We will see.

SkadiMZ · July 2022

Yakidafi wrote: »

This is funny from a PvP perspective what you propose
U35 changes will probably kill heavy attack builds completely there. We will see.

Yeah, I really look forward to an oakensoul nb with a BUFFED heavy attack. Should be more enjoyable to play against

FantasticFreddie · July 2022

Yakidafi wrote: »

This is funny from a PvP perspective what you propose
U35 changes will probably kill heavy attack builds completely there. We will see.

Heavy attacks are not a big deal in pvp IMO. They are subject to line of sight, and if I am not mistaken can be dodged.
The idea is a trade off-- if you are speccing into heavy attacks, you are not speccing into something else. Hence the ideas of slottable CP.
Bash already works this way.

Yakidafi · July 2022

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

This is funny from a PvP perspective what you propose
U35 changes will probably kill heavy attack builds completely there. We will see.

Heavy attacks are not a big deal in pvp IMO. They are subject to line of sight, and if I am not mistaken can be dodged.

Yes but no. Line of sight will not help if it is fired before you are registered as being behind a target for your opponent. And range attacks travel a distance and will home on target and not break from line of sight. It is dodgeable and blockable also kill you in 1 hit if not for most players. Casted from stealth, you might not have 100% alertness all the time. Perhaps you fight someone else. line of sight might block your view of incoming HA.
Imagine having to worry about a boss oneshot mechanic every 3s

FantasticFreddie · July 2022

If your only plan is killing someone with a single perfectly timed heavy attack, that doesn't sound like much of a threat tbh.
Especially since most sets that buff heavy attacks do so by applying an effect after you complete the attack

Wuuffyy · July 2022

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Yep. The ones Zos are suggesting are overly complex and just plain bad. Buffing heavy attacks is simple and effective.
The only one of my suggestions that *might* make it to end game is the CP slottable that extends dots by 1 second, but unless they nerf some of the existing stars I doubt it.

Buffing heavy attacks in this way would achieve everything they say they want to achieve with literally 0 down side.

Buffing heavy attacks seems much more feasible here.

Yakidafi · July 2022

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

If your only plan is killing someone with a single perfectly timed heavy attack, that doesn't sound like much of a threat tbh.
Especially since most sets that buff heavy attacks do so by applying an effect after you complete the attack

Theory and practise often differ

Seargent, undaunted, they apply before hitting.

Dagoth_Rac · July 2022

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

If your only plan is killing someone with a single perfectly timed heavy attack, that doesn't sound like much of a threat tbh.
Especially since most sets that buff heavy attacks do so by applying an effect after you complete the attack

Heavy attack one-shots are the meta in PvP right now. But it is mostly based around skills and buff, not heavy attack sets. There are skills that reduce enemy armor to zero, that make your heavy attacks hit more than 2x as hard. Ways to guarantee a crit. Ways to make crits hit like 50% harder, etc. If the base damage of HA is nerfed by this upcoming patch, or if it cannot be buffed any longer, that will probably make these builds obsolete. But currently, combos that one shot players with heavy attacks are extremely popular in PvP. And while you may be able to anticipate and dodge them in a 1-on-1 dual, they are hard to avoid in crowded and hectic Cyrodiil and BG fights. It is a lot of getting one-shot from behind with a 40k heavy attack while you are otherwise engaged.

So, yes, HA buffs would be a fantastic way to raise floor in PvE. But if it results in PvP HA going from 40k to 60k, it is going to make a problem situation even worse.

Of course, if ZOS had slowly but surely separated PvE and PvP balance over the years, it probably would have been less work and more player-friendly than the constant tension between steady-DPS-over-a-10-minute-fight-against-a-100-million-health-boss and the figure-out-latest-burst-combo-that-does-40k-damage-in-a-second-against-a-35k-enemy-PvP-player. The strategy and tactics of PvE and PvP are not just different, they are often in opposition to each other.

fred4 · July 2022

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

If your only plan is killing someone with a single perfectly timed heavy attack, that doesn't sound like much of a threat tbh.
Especially since most sets that buff heavy attacks do so by applying an effect after you complete the attack

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Heavy attack one-shots are the meta in PvP right now.

Indeed. Maybe not "the" meta, but one of the meta things to do, since spring.

But it is mostly based around skills and buff, not heavy attack sets.

And now I think you're both trolling.

Lightning staff channeled heavy attack builds have been a thing for a long time. Perhaps more in PvE, but in PvP as well. Then, this spring, ZOS changed a bunch of armor sets so they would be less effective with lightning heavy attacks, but made them OP for stealth gank flame heavy attack builds in PvP.

The preferred spec for a PvP heavy attack build is a DK for two reasons. (1) Corrosive Armor negates all of the target's resistances. (2) Molten Armaments buffs heavy attacks by 50%. This is typically combined with the Mage's Guild Equilibrium skill, which adds another 40% via Empower, without unstealthing you.

All of the above would be for nought, if it wasn't for the armor sets. The above measures do not do enough damage on their own. On the lightning heavy attack front Storm Master and Infallible Mage remain as viable lightning heavy attack sets. On the flame staff front, ZOS altered a bunch of sets in the spring 2022 patch to add insane weapon / spell damage to flame heavy attacks. Chief among those is Sergeant's Mail, which has no condition and allows you to gank people. Combine that with Oakensoul for Major Force and various other upfront buffs that are otherwise impossible to obtain in advance, while stealthed. Combine it with Oakensoul's Major Heroism that gives you Corrosive Armor all the time. Are you starting to get the picture? People have reportedly been one shot with such builds for 35K health and above. I myself have been one shot for 25K health, before Oakensoul. This is not restricted to DKs either. Nightblades can combine Sergeant's Mail and their guaranteed crit from stealth with a very high crit damage build. DK is stronger, but nightblade isn't far behind. The reason you don't see it all that much is that extreme forms of ganking builds tend to leave you squishy and locked into that one playstyle, but boy when you run into them, they're nasty. These are builds that can wipe another player in a single second from a single heavy attack.

Now arguably heavy attack builds are easy to play in PvE. Are they, though? A couple of more points:

One is that lightning heavy attack builds are already so strong in PvE, if you know how to build them right (which you now do), they've been used to solo otherwise impossible to solo dungeons, such as vet Scalecaller Peak. What you're proposing here is not new. It already exsists.

My next point is that I've tried them and I have to say: Not that easy to play a heavy attack mag DK in demanding content, because you're so open when you're channeling. There are easier to play builds that are also very strong, e.g. high sustain Brawler builds. Perhaps a sorc zoo heavy attack pet build is easy. I don't now, as I haven't tried that.

My last point is that ZOS are on a completely different track. Heavy attack builds are apparently due to be nerfed, unless they have some plans for those heavy attack sets, which are not yet clear:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview/p1

CameraBeardThePirate · July 2022

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

This is funny from a PvP perspective what you propose
U35 changes will probably kill heavy attack builds completely there. We will see.

Heavy attacks are not a big deal in pvp IMO. They are subject to line of sight, and if I am not mistaken can be dodged.
The idea is a trade off-- if you are speccing into heavy attacks, you are not speccing into something else. Hence the ideas of slottable CP.
Bash already works this way.

Heavy attacks are absolutely a problem in PvP right now. People are 1 shotting you, from stealth, with inferno heavies in corrosive armor. Line of sight and dodging doesn't come into play because you never see the attack coming. You can't build more resistance because they're using corrosive armor. The only "counter" is to stack more health and hope that the heavy ends up being 35k instead of 45k.

fred4 · July 2022

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

This is funny from a PvP perspective what you propose
U35 changes will probably kill heavy attack builds completely there. We will see.

Heavy attacks are not a big deal in pvp IMO. They are subject to line of sight, and if I am not mistaken can be dodged.
The idea is a trade off-- if you are speccing into heavy attacks, you are not speccing into something else. Hence the ideas of slottable CP.
Bash already works this way.

Heavy attacks are absolutely a problem in PvP right now. People are 1 shotting you, from stealth, with inferno heavies in corrosive armor. Line of sight and dodging doesn't come into play because you never see the attack coming. You can't build more resistance because they're using corrosive armor. The only "counter" is to stack more health and hope that the heavy ends up being 35k instead of 45k.

I agree with you, of course, but these builds have a counter that's worth adding: light armor or at least medium. You take less magic damage in light armor, whereas in heavy you actually take more. I also suspect that going hard into crit resist is meta again, possibly above and beyond Rallying Cry. At the very least you need to be conscious of proccing that set, even outside of combat. It's the natural consequence of Oakensoul and Order's Wrath.

SeaUnicorn · July 2022

Agreed, fan favorite 1 bar heavy attack sorc was always a staple beginner build. You don't even need to activate your skills, just put Bound Aegis, Inner Light and Camo Hunter on your bar, hold heavy attack and let your pets to do the job. They even added Oakensoul to support it. Why nerf something that already works for so many beginner players! I cleared my 1st vMA on 1 bar sorc. Was perfect option for a beginner to learn the mechs while not worrying about my rotation. This whole combat preview makes no sense to me.

etchedpixels · July 2022

Actually I think they are underthinking this.

The real problem isn't the light attacks, it's the fact that all the scaling is linear so that being better keeps adding 10K and then 10K and then 10K, not 10K then 9K then 8K ... so that being the best still has meaning but the gap shrinks and the effort rises.

Nerfing light attacks just means that my permablock templar sword/board/jabs build is to my amazement finally going to be awesome. In fact everyone can now just hold block all day because it's worth far more than light attacks once la is nerfed. No use doing an LA so go for defensive gear, permablock and spam class skills.

.

ccfeeling · July 2022

Sounds like many builds one shot people, HA ganker, burst ganker, bomber, Oaken builds, sometimes I even see nerf class skills requests , what u want ZOS to do pvper, nerf everything?

Katlefiya · July 2022

DK's having insane synergies with HA builds (and Oakensoul) in PvP should not be a valid reason to nerf heavy attacks for all classes. Just sayin'...

SeaUnicorn · July 2022

ccfeeling wrote: »

Sounds like many builds one shot people, HA ganker, burst ganker, bomber, Oaken builds, sometimes I even see nerf class skills requests , what u want ZOS to do pvper, nerf everything?

And community asked to balance PVP separately from PVE for so many years due to such issues, to no avail.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

The solution is to nerf Light Attacks a little bit.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

This is funny from a PvP perspective what you propose
U35 changes will probably kill heavy attack builds completely there. We will see.

Heavy attacks are not a big deal in pvp IMO. They are subject to line of sight, and if I am not mistaken can be dodged.
The idea is a trade off-- if you are speccing into heavy attacks, you are not speccing into something else. Hence the ideas of slottable CP.
Bash already works this way.

Heavy attacks are absolutely a problem in PvP right now. People are 1 shotting you, from stealth, with inferno heavies in corrosive armor. Line of sight and dodging doesn't come into play because you never see the attack coming. You can't build more resistance because they're using corrosive armor. The only "counter" is to stack more health and hope that the heavy ends up being 35k instead of 45k.

Corrosive Armor issue mainly.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

The solution is to nerf Light Attacks a little bit.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

This is funny from a PvP perspective what you propose
U35 changes will probably kill heavy attack builds completely there. We will see.

Heavy attacks are not a big deal in pvp IMO. They are subject to line of sight, and if I am not mistaken can be dodged.
The idea is a trade off-- if you are speccing into heavy attacks, you are not speccing into something else. Hence the ideas of slottable CP.
Bash already works this way.

Heavy attacks are absolutely a problem in PvP right now. People are 1 shotting you, from stealth, with inferno heavies in corrosive armor. Line of sight and dodging doesn't come into play because you never see the attack coming. You can't build more resistance because they're using corrosive armor. The only "counter" is to stack more health and hope that the heavy ends up being 35k instead of 45k.

Corrosive Armor issue mainly.

True that it's a corrosive issue mainly, but it's also a product of the fact that they neglected to nerf one of the heavy attack sets (storm master). After the nerfs to the Undaunted sets, it's the only set to increase heavy attack damage by a flat amount. That combined with the ludicrous scaling DKs can get on their heavies + corrosive armor is what's causing it.

p00tx · July 2022

etchedpixels wrote: »

Actually I think they are underthinking this.

The real problem isn't the light attacks, it's the fact that all the scaling is linear so that being better keeps adding 10K and then 10K and then 10K, not 10K then 9K then 8K ... so that being the best still has meaning but the gap shrinks and the effort rises.

Nerfing light attacks just means that my permablock templar sword/board/jabs build is to my amazement finally going to be awesome. In fact everyone can now just hold block all day because it's worth far more than light attacks once la is nerfed. No use doing an LA so go for defensive gear, permablock and spam class skills.

.

Except Templar jabs just got nerfed into the dirt.