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Combat changes and long-term players
pklemming
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Something to consider.
We are losing long-term players. It is easily noticeable in groups and trials. There is little trust left in Zos to balance and these current changes are definitely not helping matters. If, after 5 weeks, changes even resembling these hit live, I expect a lot more players to leave. We have just lost faith with the ability of internal tests to have expectations to remotely approach reality.
Experienced players are going, they won't come back. What exactly are you looking for in terms of a player base?
This change seems based, yet again, around PVP balance and not PVE, with dps in PVE being tangential to the issue(personally). The level of the sweeping changes do not seem to have been considered by the combat team. The only way this 'closes the gap' is by having lower end players lose less dps than higher dps players. EVERYBODY LOSES. That is helping no one at all and actually making it harder for newer players.
I have been in the game a long time, each set of PTS combat changes I absolutely dread, because what we are told is pretty much never realised once it hits live.
Why on earth did, for example, the Oakensoul ring get nerfed heavily when you 'doubled down' on what the ring did only several weeks ago. Were your tests wrong then, or are they wrong now? The game did not change that much. This was a key item to help those people struggling, or with disabilities, enter content they may never have seen. Great, they had few weeks (even if they managed to farm it - go go murkmire box). Why would they even consider getting it now, knowing it will change this much.
The outline implies it will still be of benefit to learn weaving. Why? Why would I go thought all the parsing to learn timings when I am doing 2k ish per hit now when I was doing 13-14k per hit before. It certainly does not make newer players want to learn to weave for that level of dps increase.
Class changes.. I have no words (I am using that a lot about these notes). Did you consider how much it gutted these classes? "80 hours of parsing"(from the twitch stream), I pretty sure that is not good enough to test all classes. Some of those classes were absolutely gutted. You saw this and still said... "Yeah, this is great, let's do this"?
I like doing dungeons in this game. I like doing trials in this game. I don't like them enough to think I want to go through yet another combat change, that seemed basically designed to balance PVP again.
Separate PVP and PVE. If there is not a facility in place to do this, spend resource time on that, not this.
Teach people how to weave. Add a tutorial You were the ones that adopted the bug back in 2014 as a 'feature' and 8 years on it is now not wanted?
It is better not to give people something, than give them something and take it away. it leaves an extremely bitter taste in the mouth we don't forget.
Edited by pklemming on July 11, 2022 10:22PM We are losing long-term players. It is easily noticeable in groups and trials. There is little trust left in Zos to balance and these current changes are definitely not helping matters. If, after 5 weeks, changes even resembling these hit live, I expect a lot more players to leave. We have just lost faith with the ability of internal tests to have expectations to remotely approach reality.
Experienced players are going, they won't come back. What exactly are you looking for in terms of a player base?
This change seems based, yet again, around PVP balance and not PVE, with dps in PVE being tangential to the issue(personally). The level of the sweeping changes do not seem to have been considered by the combat team. The only way this 'closes the gap' is by having lower end players lose less dps than higher dps players. EVERYBODY LOSES. That is helping no one at all and actually making it harder for newer players.
I have been in the game a long time, each set of PTS combat changes I absolutely dread, because what we are told is pretty much never realised once it hits live.
Why on earth did, for example, the Oakensoul ring get nerfed heavily when you 'doubled down' on what the ring did only several weeks ago. Were your tests wrong then, or are they wrong now? The game did not change that much. This was a key item to help those people struggling, or with disabilities, enter content they may never have seen. Great, they had few weeks (even if they managed to farm it - go go murkmire box). Why would they even consider getting it now, knowing it will change this much.
The outline implies it will still be of benefit to learn weaving. Why? Why would I go thought all the parsing to learn timings when I am doing 2k ish per hit now when I was doing 13-14k per hit before. It certainly does not make newer players want to learn to weave for that level of dps increase.
Class changes.. I have no words (I am using that a lot about these notes). Did you consider how much it gutted these classes? "80 hours of parsing"(from the twitch stream), I pretty sure that is not good enough to test all classes. Some of those classes were absolutely gutted. You saw this and still said... "Yeah, this is great, let's do this"?
I like doing dungeons in this game. I like doing trials in this game. I don't like them enough to think I want to go through yet another combat change, that seemed basically designed to balance PVP again.
Separate PVP and PVE. If there is not a facility in place to do this, spend resource time on that, not this.
Teach people how to weave. Add a tutorial You were the ones that adopted the bug back in 2014 as a 'feature' and 8 years on it is now not wanted?
It is better not to give people something, than give them something and take it away. it leaves an extremely bitter taste in the mouth we don't forget.
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oldbobdude✭✭✭✭✭100% agree. I’ve been playing for just over a year and feel I’ve entered the beginnings of “end game”.
I can’t tell you how many hours of parsing a trial dummy to learn how to weave and increase my DPS. I’m not a 100k guy but I do manage 75k consistently on dummy. I guess that was a waste of time.
I did the frustrating grind for oakensoul. Only to play it for a couple months and it’s nerfed. Again, wasted my time.
I have no idea how many times I ran Rockgrove for Bahsei and it was nerfed not too long ago. Another waste of time.
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Dragonlord573✭✭✭✭✭The patch notes have honestly made myself and half my end game group want to quit the game. All but one of us have been playing for little over a year and the other one has played since 2016. This is such an awful mess and to be honest...
If this trend keeps going, when Dragon's Dogma II comes out, I'll be able to put this game away forever pretty easily. The game has been having dwindling player counts every year, and this patch will put a massive nail in the coffin.
This patch can NOT go live.22 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Content will definitely get less accessible when there are no experienced players and raid leads able to help out the up and comers. It’s already a problem now, and I expect it to get a lot worse.12 -
LeBrenn✭✭✭✭Been playing since late 2016. I'm quiting if this goes live.
That's not a threat, just a fact. It's also a fact that ZOS don't care at all.29 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭The interesting thing is how many of the very same folks a day or so were saying Rich’s comments about overreaction re: light attacks were spot on and are taking a rather different approach now. Sociologically and all.
Esse quam videri.16 -
Dragonlord573✭✭✭✭✭The interesting thing is how many of the very same folks a day or so were saying Rich’s comments about overreaction re: light attacks were spot on and are taking a rather different approach now. Sociologically and all.
About an hour before the notes dropped I got reprimanded by a guild officer for being concerned about Update 35. Got told to shut up and trust the devs.
Look who was right to be concerned.19 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
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Definitely not! In fact I don't think they actually consider PvP at all anymore. It's just a vestigal aspect of the game that is too much trouble to bother removing entirely anymore.Something to consider.
This change seems based, yet again, around PVP balance and not PVE, with dps in PVE being tangential to the issue(personally)
Anyway, other than that small comment I wanted to make I more-or-less agree with what you are saying.
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Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The interesting thing is how many of the very same folks a day or so were saying Rich’s comments about overreaction re: light attacks were spot on and are taking a rather different approach now. Sociologically and all.
Everybody's got a weakness. The devs were brutally efficient and hit their targets. So someones class/playstyle was bound to be hit.
Scorched earth.
I can almost admire their methods. Almost like the Daedric Princes."If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The interesting thing is how many of the very same folks a day or so were saying Rich’s comments about overreaction re: light attacks were spot on and are taking a rather different approach now. Sociologically and all.
If I took a bunch of M&Ms from a bag blindfolded to represent 5+5, and without even counting just flung them into a bowl, then regardless if 10 M&Ms ended up in the bowl, that's no way to do math.
We can guess at what is in a patch, but proclaiming we know it before we've seen is still a poor way to evaluate a patch. A good faith evaluation and discussion needs knowledge and not just assumptions based off the way devs have done stuff in the past.
It's fine to make first impression guesses, but we can't know things til we actually see the patches.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 11, 2022 11:14PM2 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hey, just trust they will get it squared away before it goes live
Esse quam videri.3 -
Gruumsh1✭✭✭✭Something to consider.
Separate PVP and PVE. If there is not a facility in place to do this, spend resource time on that, not this.
This, in a nutshell. Stop trying to have them overlap with gear sets and balance across both styles. You already adjust stuff in PVP with Battle spirit etc. You can do the same with gear sets. Surely you can make them statted for PVP when you enter that zone (and I am calling you Surely).
Gruumsh, Gruumsh, Gruumsh, Gruumsh, Miiighty Gruumsh!4 -
morrowjen✭✭✭✭✭oldbobdude wrote: »100% agree. I’ve been playing for just over a year and feel I’ve entered the beginnings of “end game”.
I can’t tell you how many hours of parsing a trial dummy to learn how to weave and increase my DPS. I’m not a 100k guy but I do manage 75k consistently on dummy. I guess that was a waste of time.
I did the frustrating grind for oakensoul. Only to play it for a couple months and it’s nerfed. Again, wasted my time.
I have no idea how many times I ran Rockgrove for Bahsei and it was nerfed not too long ago. Another waste of time.
Absolutely spot on. ZOS has entered a cycle where everything feels completely pointless to commit to. Items take too long to get only to be nerfed as soon as you do get them. By the time vDSR has enough players with experience to actually clear it, nothing in it will be worth anything. A lot of people worked very hard to get to a level where they could run trials only to have their efforts (fill in the blank). With these nerfs AND (for me personally) necro looking to take a disproportionate hit it's hard to see the point of any of it.12 -
Hawkeye✭✭✭✭
Definitely not! In fact I don't think they actually consider PvP at all anymore. It's just a vestigal aspect of the game that is too much trouble to bother removing entirely anymore.Something to consider.
This change seems based, yet again, around PVP balance and not PVE, with dps in PVE being tangential to the issue(personally)
Anyway, other than that small comment I wanted to make I more-or-less agree with what you are saying.
Are you kidding me? If it was not for the PVP players pitching a fit the Oakensoul ring would not be getting the nerfs it's getting.What is the definition of insanity? Ask ZOS.11 -
Thecompton73✭✭✭✭✭Not saying I'll leave for good if these changes hit live but I'll be on an extended break until they realize how terrible they are and reverse most, if not all, of them.
The changes to DOT's are one of the lamest ideas they've ever had and to top it off they completely destroyed my newly race changed stamsorc
I don't even want to go back to being a mag sorc after they also completely ruined stacking mines to take out tower/stair/tree/rock humpers that have perma immunity to snares/roots. Smartly placing mines so they stack and getting someonte to run onto them is no different then all the other one shot combo's on other classes, why did that need to be nerfed? If anything give them the enemy AOE marker so people can't complain they didn't know they were going to blow themselves up.Edited by Thecompton73 on July 11, 2022 11:31PM6 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭Are you kidding me? If it was not for the PVP players pitching a fit the Oakensoul ring would not be getting the nerfs it's getting.
It wasn’t the pvpers who instead of doing a massive combat tuning a quarter or at least a month or so before an expansion do it a month or two after. Once everyone is good and settled in, have golded gear, drug their mates in etc.
It wasn’t pvpers who saw but decided to sit on all the feedback telling them of all the things that turned out to be true.
It certainly wasn’t something they asked for to have the largest overhaul to combat across the board in memory, also a month or two right after an expansion.
I mean everyone is most certainly going to have their opinions, but for me I think I’d be laying responsibility for this not at the feet of players. Even if they are, what was it I saw in another thread…”malcontent pvpers”?
What if this division between “casuals” and “elitists” might even be that neither side is entirely, irrevocably evil and that decisions made by the same folks create the drama to begin with….ah but don’t mind meEsse quam videri.11 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What if this division between “casuals” and “elitists” might even be that neither side is entirely, irrevocably evil and that decisions made by the same folks create the drama to begin with….ah but don’t mind me
"If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."3 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
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Definitely not! In fact I don't think they actually consider PvP at all anymore. It's just a vestigal aspect of the game that is too much trouble to bother removing entirely anymore.Something to consider.
This change seems based, yet again, around PVP balance and not PVE, with dps in PVE being tangential to the issue(personally)
Anyway, other than that small comment I wanted to make I more-or-less agree with what you are saying.
Are you kidding me? If it was not for the PVP players pitching a fit the Oakensoul ring would not be getting the nerfs it's getting.
No I'm not kidding you. I did a lot of both PvE and PvP and I can say in all certainty that PvP does not get the attention it used to and certainly no where as much as PvE has since the first year. Have you engaged in enough of both activities to make a judgment call like that?
Case-in-point: They have a passive that can be used to adjust things on a PvE-vs-PvP basis and have been willing to use it in the past. If it was the case that they decided PvP was the sole reason to nerf something they would use that tool. But they don't even bother to address simple things like displaying what items do and don't work while in Ravenwatch or even to announce to the casual player that such a limit even exists! How can I possibly be convinced that they consider it anymore if even the most basic of actions won't be taken to provide a functional experience? As far as I'm concerned they officially and without announcement ended their support for PvP last year.
Edited by Sluggy on July 11, 2022 11:53PM2 -
CGPsaint✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dragonlord573 wrote: »This patch can NOT go live.
A year ago I would have agreed with you. Now I'm okay with it, because I finally have a reason to cancel my ESO+ subscription and go find a better game to play.
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dmnqwk✭✭✭✭✭I am mostly concerned that the game has a major disparity between regular mobs and veteran dungeon mobs that causes a disfunctional gameplay to exist.
Even in base game vet dungeons, the 120k health of mobs makes dots irrelevent to apply, because you'll kill them too quickly. Making the DoTs scale over 20 seconds means you need 13 seconds before it's a damage gain over spammables.
I think the person responsible for the balances needs to understand that nerfing DoT damage creates a world where you spin to win spam and nothing else...8 -
Thecompton73✭✭✭✭✭
Definitely not! In fact I don't think they actually consider PvP at all anymore. It's just a vestigal aspect of the game that is too much trouble to bother removing entirely anymore.Something to consider.
This change seems based, yet again, around PVP balance and not PVE, with dps in PVE being tangential to the issue(personally)
Anyway, other than that small comment I wanted to make I more-or-less agree with what you are saying.
Are you kidding me? If it was not for the PVP players pitching a fit the Oakensoul ring would not be getting the nerfs it's getting.
No I'm not kidding you. I did a lot of both PvE and PvP and I can say in all certainty that PvP does not get the attention it used to and certainly no where as much as PvE has since the first year. Have you engaged in enough of both activities to make a judgment call like that?
Case-in-point: They have a passive that can be used to adjust things on a PvE-vs-PvP basis and have been willing to use it in the past. If it was the case that they decided PvP was the sole reason to nerf something they would use that tool. But they don't even bother to address simple things like displaying what items do and don't work while in Ravenwatch or even to announce to the casual player that such a limit even exists! How can I possibly be convinced that they consider it anymore if even the most basic of actions won't be taken to provide a functional experience? As far as I'm concerned they officially and without announcement ended their support for PvP last year.
Seriously, Oakensoul was overtuned to sell the expansion. It was always going to get nerfed. How about we talk about changes like the nerf to the DPS of DOTS to make rotation's a bit easier for PvE casuals while totally disregarding that the changes make using any of them in PvP totally worthless?Edited by Thecompton73 on July 12, 2022 12:15AM10 -
dmnqwk✭✭✭✭✭Thecompton73 wrote: »Seriously, Oakensoul was overtuned to sell the expansion. It was always going to get nerfed. How about we talk about changes like the nerf to the DPS of DOTS to make rotation's a bit easier for PvE casuals while totally disregarding that the changes make using any of them in PvP totally worthless?
Oakensoul was only overpowered in PvP - in PvE it was 20% less than 2 bars, which is easily a reasonable level to have it at.
And the DoT nerfs make them worthless in any situation the mob wont survive 12 seconds (which is 90% of pve content when you include overland/delves/normal dungeons etc)1 -
gronoxvx✭✭✭✭✭Im just disappointed zos is back to changing the game every 3 months like they promised us previously they would stop doing. 8 years into a game and feels like zos is still having an identity crisis. We will be able to adjust to the changes, but its more a case of if people have the motivation to do so for these wild changes. Personally, i dont after 5 years playing the game and from what im hearing a lot of others dont, even including some newer people who have only been playing for 12months or so.14 -
pklemming✭✭✭✭✭
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We tried that, many times. Now we are here and I am just tired of the constant changes.
If this is so seriously considered and tested, for balance, before hitting Live, why keep changing things?
It is feeling very much like Live is the Test server and they keep throwing things at it and seeing what sticks.
None of it feels like considered changes. If they are, then I back to being lost for words.12 -
Paralyse✭✭✭✭✭Until and unless this supposed ongoing mass exodus of players is supported by hard data, there's no sense in posting about it.
Your experiences are not mine. We are having no trouble filling our trials, vDLC trifectas, HMs, score push runs, or any other content. In fact, many nights we have more players signed up than slots open, so there are lots of fills/bench/backups. vDSR in particular has drawn more interest than any trial I can think of in recent memory, with multiple runs per night in some of my servers.
Do not make the mistake of thinking developers are overly concerned if the endgame community DOES lose a lot of players. The remainder of the game -- the ones who do not participate in endgame content -- those are the ones who keep the bills paid and the stockholders happy. While it is definitely beneficial to this game to have a healthy, balanced and thriving endgame, it is not -- and cannot be -- the overriding factor in decisions being made by the devs. A LOT of money, time, and resources are spent developing new trials, and yet it is inarguable that a large percentage of ESO players have never stepped foot in them, or completed them on any difficulty, especially not vet or vet HM.
WoW went through this for a few years where raids were treated as the only important part of the game and everything else was lower priority or simply ignored. Non-raid content and levelling were trivialized and marginalized, and the developers there treated endgame raiders as though they were the only players whose opinions mattered. I do not want to see ESO going in this direction, even though I am a mid-level ESO endgame player myself.Absolutely spot on. ZOS has entered a cycle where everything feels completely pointless to commit to. Items take too long to get only to be nerfed as soon as you do get them. By the time vDSR has enough players with experience to actually clear it, nothing in it will be worth anything. A lot of people worked very hard to get to a level where they could run trials only to have their efforts (fill in the blank). With these nerfs AND (for me personally) necro looking to take a disproportionate hit it's hard to see the point of any of it.
Then why are some of the trial gear sets from Craglorn, Elsweyr, Thieves' Guild. Clockwork City, Summerset, Greymoor and Blackwood still in use and, indeed, considered best in slot? Why are arena weapons from Murkmire, Greymoor and Wrothgar still pretty much required for many highly optimized endgame builds?
vDSR's gear will be relevant for a long time. In the meantime, vDSR score pushers have already completed the trifecta.Paralyse, Sanguine's Tester - Enjoying ESO since beta. Trial clears: vSS HM, Crag HM's, vRG Oax HM, vMoL DD, vKA HM, vCR+1, vAS IR, vDSR, vSE3 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hmmmm
Maybe a player base that actually supports the business model and doesn't complain about everything constantly?
I mean I think I support the business model, but I’d welcome an explanation to make sure I’m understanding it. Simple sort of fellow you know.
And a profit and loss statement, and I wouldn’t be scared off by a detailed one. I’ve been curious to see one of those rascals for 8-9 years.Edited by Riptide on July 12, 2022 12:54AMEsse quam videri.5 -
jecks33✭✭✭✭✭
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support the business model means buy the expansion ---> get the OP items ---> watch how we destroy them 2 months later ---> buy the next espansion ---> get the new OP otems ---> watch how we destroy them 2 months later ---> repeat?PC-EU20 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I have 300 characters... and with these changes I have 0 that I want to use
Some of us HAVE been supporting their business model, at least prior to 2022.
How much $$$ to spend to get their attention?4 -
morrowjen✭✭✭✭✭I am mostly concerned that the game has a major disparity between regular mobs and veteran dungeon mobs that causes a disfunctional gameplay to exist.
Even in base game vet dungeons, the 120k health of mobs makes dots irrelevent to apply, because you'll kill them too quickly. Making the DoTs scale over 20 seconds means you need 13 seconds before it's a damage gain over spammables.
I think the person responsible for the balances needs to understand that nerfing DoT damage creates a world where you spin to win spam and nothing else...Until and unless this supposed ongoing mass exodus of players is supported by hard data, there's no sense in posting about it.
Your experiences are not mine. We are having no trouble filling our trials, vDLC trifectas, HMs, score push runs, or any other content. In fact, many nights we have more players signed up than slots open, so there are lots of fills/bench/backups. vDSR in particular has drawn more interest than any trial I can think of in recent memory, with multiple runs per night in some of my servers.
Do not make the mistake of thinking developers are overly concerned if the endgame community DOES lose a lot of players. The remainder of the game -- the ones who do not participate in endgame content -- those are the ones who keep the bills paid and the stockholders happy. While it is definitely beneficial to this game to have a healthy, balanced and thriving endgame, it is not -- and cannot be -- the overriding factor in decisions being made by the devs. A LOT of money, time, and resources are spent developing new trials, and yet it is inarguable that a large percentage of ESO players have never stepped foot in them, or completed them on any difficulty, especially not vet or vet HM.
WoW went through this for a few years where raids were treated as the only important part of the game and everything else was lower priority or simply ignored. Non-raid content and levelling were trivialized and marginalized, and the developers there treated endgame raiders as though they were the only players whose opinions mattered. I do not want to see ESO going in this direction, even though I am a mid-level ESO endgame player myself.Absolutely spot on. ZOS has entered a cycle where everything feels completely pointless to commit to. Items take too long to get only to be nerfed as soon as you do get them. By the time vDSR has enough players with experience to actually clear it, nothing in it will be worth anything. A lot of people worked very hard to get to a level where they could run trials only to have their efforts (fill in the blank). With these nerfs AND (for me personally) necro looking to take a disproportionate hit it's hard to see the point of any of it.
Then why are some of the trial gear sets from Craglorn, Elsweyr, Thieves' Guild. Clockwork City, Summerset, Greymoor and Blackwood still in use and, indeed, considered best in slot? Why are arena weapons from Murkmire, Greymoor and Wrothgar still pretty much required for many highly optimized endgame builds?
vDSR's gear will be relevant for a long time. In the meantime, vDSR score pushers have already completed the trifecta.
Score pushers, trifecta runners, HM achievers aren't effected. We all know that. That is the problem with these changes. The ones who are going to be hurt are the ones who already struggle.
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