Don't forget that Dark Cloak refreshes your armor buff and increases your max health by 3% just by merely slotting it. If you're playing no-cloak, the only good way to keep your armor buff up is by casting shade while kiting or surprise attack when fighting. Unless you're using Chudan of course. Dark Cloak used to be pretty rough when the healing was spread across 8 seconds or so, but now it's compressed into 4 seconds which allows for a burstier HoT and in my opinion, one of the best HoTs in the game.

The heal for Dark Cloak shouldn't be increased further in my opinion and here's why:

• NB tanks, when done right, can be highly taxing to finish off because of their healing from Dark Cloak and Soul Siphon. Obviously, smart players don't bother with tanks. But more casual players will pile on them like moths to a flame, and they will complain and complain that NB tanking is insanely OP.
• lt's also pretty hard to die as a NB tank in PvE since Dark Cloak is your main heal and it's pretty easy to sustain. You have to consider both PvP and PvE in this sense for the sake of balance.
• Some players (like me) stack HoTs on nightblade. I use Refreshing Path, Vigor/Rapid Regen, the heal from Siphoning Attacks (might not seem like much, but it adds up) and Dark Cloak on magblade. lt's anywhere between 4k-7k HPS depending on crit, on top of Healthy Offering should l need the burst. Sure it's a lot to manage but it's worth it. Most capable players only need 2-3 damaging abilties: spectral bow and veiled strike with maybe one other dot or execute. lf Dark Cloak healed for even more it couldn't possibly be balanced.
• Consider other class HoTs health related/damage related. Sorc's Crit Surge is a flat heal that can't rise or fall without healing received/taken/done buffs with an average tooltip of 2.5k-3.5k. DK's Cinder Storm heals on average 1.5k-2k per second and cauterize is roughly 5k-8k every 5 seconds which is including their 12% healing received passive. Necro's Mortal Coil heals for about 1.3k per second, and the mender heals for roughly 3k every 2 seconds (not counting intensive mender). Warden vines heal for roughly 2k per second if receiving damage per second. Templar's ritual is also about 2k, pushing 3k (and that's a stretch) per 2 seconds. In accordance to the other classes, Dark Cloak heals for roughly 3k per second (at least for me having 32k-38k health [Thrassians enjoyer]) which is much higher than other classes.

Jeezye wrote: »

I agree dark cloak sucks for several reasons and actually deslotted it in favor of rapid regen or vigor:
- 4k magcost for a subpar hot is extreme
- passives don't count because other skills also provide them, there's no hard opportunity cost
- new refreshing path is a hell lot better and also enables armor buff
- HP scaling in itself is kind of mehish, since I'm not willing to invest more than 30k into hp

All around, I actually went back to a stealth style now (actually wanted to use mist form but figured its unreliable vs just using the class native escape tool).

Not a single health-based skill is going to be exceptional across any class with a health pool under 30k. Of course Refreshing Path will be a better heal and Dark Cloak will be weaker, and the same for anyone with the same ideology. You need a high health pool.

As far as its cost, all health-based healing is roughly the same across all classes. DK's GDB costs 4320 magicka, Artic Wind costs 4320 magicka NB's dark cloak costs 4050 magicka and Templar's Living Dark costs 4050 (note: used to be health-based on certain conditions, but changed last patch. The current cost is either an over-sight on ZoS or perhaps they were happy with its cost.) and Necro scythe is much cheaper yes, but it's a targetable heal.

You wouldn't ask Necro's scythe, DK's GDB, or Warden's Artic Wind to heal for very much if your Health was half of the average tank. These skills would be trash for you yet perform well for others.

Obviously, if you're not specialized to run Dark Cloak it won't be suited for you and as far as nightblade is concerned there are many other options as opposed to classes with only one HoT.

If you wanted to argue in favor of the OP, you'd have to at least have stats that make Dark Cloak an optimal choice. The skill can't be used for high damage specs and clearly shouldn't. Otherwise, a tank can argue that Surprise Attack is a trash skill and needs to be reworked because of its low damage, which is insane. Savvy?

I like Dark Cloak, keep it on my front bar, but I do have 32 K or so health.

Chelo wrote: »

I've been saying this since 2014 and I will say it again ''NBs = Stealth''. If you are a playing a NB (stamina or magicka) and not using Stealth, you are just playing a Lesser Sorc...

NBs are to ESO what Rogues or Assassins are to other MMOs. Or at least it suppose to be that way, back in 2014 when the game was advertise as a PvP Game.

Maybe people don't like the hide and gank play style but enjoy playing around with the classes toolkit. Until 2020 I hated nightblade and hated cloak playstyle for PVP because I like going toe-to-toe with enemies. But I started to really enjoy nightblade, especially magblade with dark cloak because the toolkit for nightblade is really fun to play with. More fun than a lot of other class toolkits. Nightblade toolkit feels more "complete' than a lot of other class kits. It's not perfect but gives tons of options

Chelo wrote: »

I've been saying this since 2014 and I will say it again ''NBs = Stealth''. If you are a playing a NB (stamina or magicka) and not using Stealth, you are just playing a Lesser Sorc...

NBs are to ESO what Rogues or Assassins are to other MMOs. Or at least it suppose to be that way, back in 2014 when the game was advertise as a PvP Game.

you can and you would be wrong, especially that I have been playing magblade since launch and do not play stealth.

Magblades fufill the ranged life stealing attrition based caster archetype just as much as they fufill the the rogue archetype in an mmorpg.

Reducing them to exclusively a stealth class is disingenuous at best and demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding as to the classes design as a whole at launch. Magblade casters early on where the attrition kings, not at all comparable to sorcs, who operated on a completely different type of caster playstyle.

Magblade has been ESOs shadowpriest / madness inquisitor / Possesion HoX since day one and while the attrition life stealing power is weaker than it was from pre TG, that has not changed. Since beta, nb has had tools to heal allies through damage, passive healing increase modifiers through siphoning skill lines and possessed the only ranged spammable skill in the game that returned life on hit per GCD while providing self healing increase buff. Hardly the tools of a stealth based rogue.

Chelo wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

I've been saying this since 2014 and I will say it again ''NBs = Stealth''. If you are a playing a NB (stamina or magicka) and not using Stealth, you are just playing a Lesser Sorc...

NBs are to ESO what Rogues or Assassins are to other MMOs. Or at least it suppose to be that way, back in 2014 when the game was advertise as a PvP Game.

you can and you would be wrong, especially that I have been playing magblade since launch and do not play stealth.

Magblades fufill the ranged life stealing attrition based caster archetype just as much as they fufill the the rogue archetype in an mmorpg.

Reducing them to exclusively a stealth class is disingenuous at best and demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding as to the classes design as a whole at launch. Magblade casters early on where the attrition kings, not at all comparable to sorcs, who operated on a completely different type of caster playstyle.

Magblade has been ESOs shadowpriest / madness inquisitor / Possesion HoX since day one and while the attrition life stealing power is weaker than it was from pre TG, that has not changed. Since beta, nb has had tools to heal allies through damage, passive healing increase modifiers through siphoning skill lines and possessed the only ranged spammable skill in the game that returned life on hit per GCD while providing self healing increase buff. Hardly the tools of a stealth based rogue.

First Im talking about PvP (dont give a crap about PvE), just to make sure to take out PvE of the conversation. Second, if you are going to play a NB with no Stealth, EVERYTHING you can do, a Sorc can do BETTER, and thats my point. The only thing NBs have that other classes DONT, is Stealth, if you are not going to use it, play a Sorc.

Every Class in the game have access to EVERYTHING in a reliable way. Stealth is the only thing that NBs have and other Classes DONT, of course there's a Stealth Potion but they are not as reliable as using an spamable skill. Thats my point. Everything a NB can do, other classes can do better except of Stealth.

NB is not better than a Sorc (mage), Templar (healer), DK (tanking), Warden (support), Necro (complete), every class have an archetype that they are clearly better at. NB suppose to be an Assassin, just because you can play the ''way you want'' doesnt mean every way is going to become meta. Playing the way you want, only means you can screw up in infiite ways. And playing NB with no Stealth in PvP is clearly not meta for most of the situations.

I'm talking explicitly about pvp lol.... not some snowflake "play the way you want" bosmer resto staff/bow bush wizard rp build for questing dude. you are simply wrong in your assement, that's all.

Night blades casters have ALWAYS been a thing. And just to be VERY clear here, this isnt a "meta" discussion. You claimed nightblade is exclusively and should only be played as "the rogue class" in eso, which has been false on multiple levels since the game came into existence.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

I've been saying this since 2014 and I will say it again ''NBs = Stealth''. If you are a playing a NB (stamina or magicka) and not using Stealth, you are just playing a Lesser Sorc...

NBs are to ESO what Rogues or Assassins are to other MMOs. Or at least it suppose to be that way, back in 2014 when the game was advertise as a PvP Game.

Maybe people don't like the hide and gank play style but enjoy playing around with the classes toolkit. Until 2020 I hated nightblade and hated cloak playstyle for PVP because I like going toe-to-toe with enemies. But I started to really enjoy nightblade, especially magblade with dark cloak because the toolkit for nightblade is really fun to play with. More fun than a lot of other class toolkits. Nightblade toolkit feels more "complete' than a lot of other class kits. It's not perfect but gives tons of options

NBs are super far from ''complete''... As I said, a NB with no Stealth is just a Lesser Sorc. There's a reason why MagBlades are at the bottom of the PvP Tier List. If anything, Devs should buff the Stealth playstyle instead of nerf it every patch.

The Assassin Class suppose to be an ''Assassin'', if people want to play Brawlers, they can play DKs, Necros, even Templars...

I said it feels more complete.

Look at any other class and how much of their toolkit is actually useful. Half of the templar toolkit is useless or pretty bad. Half of Necro toolkit is pretty useless or has very situational usage and they are lacking damage. Half of sorcerer toolkit is useless or super situational and they lack lots of healing. Warden has a really good toolkit but lacks cc options and damage options are okay but not great.

Of all the other classes nightblade feels the most complete, you have decent options for damage of all sources, dot damage, direct damage. You have decent healing options and utility abilities like Phantasmal escape/mirage, malovolent offering, and path of darkness. Decent buff and debuff toolkit like mark target, power extraction. etc. You have CC options/escape abilities like fear/fear trap and shade. Hell they even have a class execute that most classes don't have

Most classes are lacking SOMETHING, very few classes feel as complete where you can rely solely on class kit because it's that well rounded and allows for tons of options to play. Only DK and Templar really measure up in the same manner of a complete toolkit. Though templar doesn't feel like it has the most diverse options.

That's why people enjoy playing dark cloak playstyle, it doesn't feel like you're shoehorned into playing the same thing every time because nightblade toolkit just provides so many options to play around with. You can't say that about warden, sorcerer, or necromancer. Most of those classes are very limited in viable options

Hmm want to pick up on the siphoning caster playstyle discussion. NB main since beta here, there was a very long time saptanks ruled cyrodiil draining tons of health while maintaining burst windows. Those times are undeniably gone now, but the playstyle remains - and has nothing to do with stealth spamming.

However, the skeletons of these former skills don’t match the high dodge, high mitigation mega anymore.
Dmg based healing is weak (ss, sap), dmg on path is gone, passive vitality and many other buffs with it.
What remains is the most telegraphed and easily avoidable dmg in the game with subpar passive healing, making it so damn hard to make the brawler playstyle work.
Especially if you have a glance at the stam morphs offering 3x buff/debuff coverage, there’s little incentive to play magblade brawler over stam hit&run.

See my thread on magblade brawler brainstorm

And also you didnt say anything about my initial point. I know NBs Casters are a thing but my point is ''A Sorc Caster is BETTER than a NB Caster at everything'', the only advantage that the NB Caster have, is access to Stealth. So if you are going to play a NB with no Stealth, you rather just play a Sorc.

And I can say exactly the same thing for other classes ''A DK Brawler is better than a NB Brawler''.

And NO ONE on this discussion want to admit those points.

Chelo wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

I've been saying this since 2014 and I will say it again ''NBs = Stealth''. If you are a playing a NB (stamina or magicka) and not using Stealth, you are just playing a Lesser Sorc...

NBs are to ESO what Rogues or Assassins are to other MMOs. Or at least it suppose to be that way, back in 2014 when the game was advertise as a PvP Game.

Maybe people don't like the hide and gank play style but enjoy playing around with the classes toolkit. Until 2020 I hated nightblade and hated cloak playstyle for PVP because I like going toe-to-toe with enemies. But I started to really enjoy nightblade, especially magblade with dark cloak because the toolkit for nightblade is really fun to play with. More fun than a lot of other class toolkits. Nightblade toolkit feels more "complete' than a lot of other class kits. It's not perfect but gives tons of options

NBs are super far from ''complete''... As I said, a NB with no Stealth is just a Lesser Sorc. There's a reason why MagBlades are at the bottom of the PvP Tier List. If anything, Devs should buff the Stealth playstyle instead of nerf it every patch.

The Assassin Class suppose to be an ''Assassin'', if people want to play Brawlers, they can play DKs, Necros, even Templars...

I said it feels more complete.

Look at any other class and how much of their toolkit is actually useful. Half of the templar toolkit is useless or pretty bad. Half of Necro toolkit is pretty useless or has very situational usage and they are lacking damage. Half of sorcerer toolkit is useless or super situational and they lack lots of healing. Warden has a really good toolkit but lacks cc options and damage options are okay but not great.

Of all the other classes nightblade feels the most complete, you have decent options for damage of all sources, dot damage, direct damage. You have decent healing options and utility abilities like Phantasmal escape/mirage, malovolent offering, and path of darkness. Decent buff and debuff toolkit like mark target, power extraction. etc. You have CC options/escape abilities like fear/fear trap and shade. Hell they even have a class execute that most classes don't have

Most classes are lacking SOMETHING, very few classes feel as complete where you can rely solely on class kit because it's that well rounded and allows for tons of options to play. Only DK and Templar really measure up in the same manner of a complete toolkit. Though templar doesn't feel like it has the most diverse options.

That's why people enjoy playing dark cloak playstyle, it doesn't feel like you're shoehorned into playing the same thing every time because nightblade toolkit just provides so many options to play around with. You can't say that about warden, sorcerer, or necromancer. Most of those classes are very limited in viable options

So explain to us why MagBlade is concider the lowest tier class for PvP, while Necromancer is concider S Tier?

https://youtu.be/YmKK7kSojig

I dont like to quote youtubers but EVERY PATCH MagBlade is concider the lowest tier class... Its been like that since the last 5 years...

Because for one, magblade doesn't match up to stamblade in terms of what the class provides. Why is stamblade always S tier but magblade is usually D tier? It's because stamblade just has better buffs than magblade for pvp. Unless you play hybrid, stamblade beats out magblade in every department.

Stamblades make better bombers because they can add spin 2 win into bomb rotation, magblades can't without investing into stam or sustain. Stamblades ambush is just way better than lotus fan. Surprise attack is better than concealed weapon(especially if you don't use cloak). Plus stamblades can use power extraction more, magblades can't use power extraction often as it has a high stam cost.

The problem is magblade is just a worse stamblade and most of these "tier lists" make that abundantly clear. It's not that the class toolkit is bad otherwise stamblade would also be a D tier class but it isn't.

Stamblade can consistently have major breach, minor breach, minor courage and minor cowardice, minor berserk, and empower buffs just being specc'd into a stam class, which FAR outperforms magblade unless you play as a hybrid magblade built into stamina.

It's not a question of "the class kit is bad" it's a matter of stamblade just has far better damage and access to a better buff/debuff toolkit.


If you compare it to other classes like sorcerer. What does sorcerer have in it's toolkit other than the generic light attack crystal weapon/ elemental weapon, curse, streak and overload combo? Not very much. Sorcerer class toolkit is not nearly as diverse. Same goes for necromancer as you chose to list. What exactly does necromancer have outside of it's boneyard synergy combo for damage? Not much, even necro scythe is overly broken after being buffed. Also necromancer is overly reliant on proc sets to be effective, limiting diversity

Nightblade isn't a weak class nor does it have a bad toolkit. The problem is it requires way more skill to pull off damage, unless you just run cheese proc sets. But proc sets work for any setup and procs aren't really a part of the class strengths