Ratzkifal wrote: »

Hate it. Racial Passives should be a tool to let new players get a feeling for what each race is like before they even created their character. Having these actually be combat relevant rather than just a description nobody will read also allows for better immersion.

If you want to choose passives, just call it something else but don't have them be called Racial Passives because they really aren't that anymore at that point. And yes, I am currently unhappy with the hybridized state of racial passives (apart from the cases where it actually makes sense).

I'm not quite sure I really understand your first paragraph, would you mind elaborating. I thought I had mentioned it in my original posts but I wouldn't be opposed to just renaming them something like Starting bonuses, blessings or something along those lines as is common in other games

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Hate it. Racial Passives should be a tool to let new players get a feeling for what each race is like before they even created their character. Having these actually be combat relevant rather than just a description nobody will read also allows for better immersion.

If you want to choose passives, just call it something else but don't have them be called Racial Passives because they really aren't that anymore at that point. And yes, I am currently unhappy with the hybridized state of racial passives (apart from the cases where it actually makes sense).

I'm not quite sure I really understand your first paragraph, would you mind elaborating. I thought I had mentioned it in my original posts but I wouldn't be opposed to just renaming them something like Starting bonuses, blessings or something along those lines as is common in other games

You haven't actually mentioned that in your original post. All I see there is "racial passives" in the title and then nothing about changing what these passives are called. Racial passives are a type of starting bonus, so that didn't strike me as an attempt to rename them.
To elaborate my point, Nords are brawlers, the stereotypical barbarian and known to drink a lot. Then it makes sense that they get a bonus related to drinks (the +15min duration), an armor bonus to allow them to be wear less clothes and still be tanky in true barbarian fashion and they should get an offensive bonus other than more XP gained with two-handers because that's what you would expect from them. If you read these passives alone, you already get a pretty good idea of what Nords are all about. This can already be a good starting point for getting into roleplay, and in an RPG, even an MMORPG, I think having roleplay opportunities presented by the game is a good thing to have.
So my point is, racial passives are good in principle, but right now ESO has been losing sight of that. Now we have contradictory descriptions like:

The racial skills of the High Elves reflect their magic affinity by increasing their weapon [...] damage. [...] These innate bonuses help define them as proud and powerful spellcasters.

"I cast sword!" It makes no sense to me.
Since ZOS will never go back on this mistake, I think removing all racial passives is the only choice left because I hate to see racial passives in this state. It's a bitter compromise but the most realistic one I could agree to. They don't even need to be replaced because at that point it would be all up to your choice and every race would be viable. (Not like they aren't all already viable. The dps differences are so tiny to begin with, it makes no difference.)
Mundus stones haven't been hyrbridized yet, so they could rework all of these and turn them into your starting bonuses. That way you can simply change your bonus later if you don't like what you picked. In older games you would choose one of them at the start of the game as your "birth sign", although we shouldn't be calling it a birth sign because that suggests it can't be changed.

FluffWit wrote: »

Would love this since it would let me play any race in any role I like.

But you already can...
The differences between best and worst race are so tiny that the natural deviation from one parse to the next is already greater than the theoretical difference your race makes. Your race cannot carry you through content, so your race cannot bar you from content either. If you wear the right sets and practise your rotation then any race can already be top dps. Or are you in the top 1% of leaderboard runs? It makes even less of a difference for healers and tanks.

Amottica wrote: »

First, there would be a balancing issue. There would be restrictions on what could be chosen since it is obvious we would go for 3 pure damage passives if we had a choice.

From what I understand, when Zenimax first mentioned they were looking to add race change to the game the original idea mentioned was being able to change the race but keep the passives. Obviously, that would be powerful as it would essentially let us choose what set of passives we wanted and is likely a big reason why Zenimax chose to keep passives tied to the race.

In the end, I think such a change would make them rather pointless since people would have to pay money (yes it would require a token) or re-roll all their characters to change the passives in such a system. Doing so would be required for anyone who wanted to be competitive.

It would also lead to the more competitive players having separate characters for PvP and PvE since different passive choices would be good for one and undesirable for another.

To elaborate I just mean you get to select A SET of passives. I’m not proposing a big rework of passives that would require balance rework

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

First, there would be a balancing issue. There would be restrictions on what could be chosen since it is obvious we would go for 3 pure damage passives if we had a choice.

From what I understand, when Zenimax first mentioned they were looking to add race change to the game the original idea mentioned was being able to change the race but keep the passives. Obviously, that would be powerful as it would essentially let us choose what set of passives we wanted and is likely a big reason why Zenimax chose to keep passives tied to the race.

In the end, I think such a change would make them rather pointless since people would have to pay money (yes it would require a token) or re-roll all their characters to change the passives in such a system. Doing so would be required for anyone who wanted to be competitive.

It would also lead to the more competitive players having separate characters for PvP and PvE since different passive choices would be good for one and undesirable for another.

To elaborate I just mean you get to select A SET of passives. I’m not proposing a big rework of passives that would require balance rework

and as part of my post, Zenimax already had the opportunity to decouple passives from the race and they chose to keep them intrinsically tied together.

Outside of racial resistance passives, I don't see why not. Especially since hybridization is now a thing.

the old racial passives before shadow of the hist (mid 2016) imo were the best we ever had. Obv there were broken as passives like redguard adrenaline rush and imperial red diamond back then but imo there was diversity between the 10 races with each having their own uniqueness. Races should have been the one thing they shouldn't have homogenized.

Also might be an unpopular opinion but when they changed the % increases to actual flat values e.g 10% extra max magicka to 2000 max magicka, it was the nail in the coffin for racial passives. This is what they also did with High Elf and Dark elfs % increase to their damage types. From % increase to magic and flame damage respectively, it was just straight up 258 weapon and spell damage.

Edit:
I doubt they'll change racial passives soon because im pretty sure Zeni doesnt want to anger the community with yet another backwards pedal of racial passives for a cash grab

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Would love this since it would let me play any race in any role I like.

But you already can...
The differences between best and worst race are so tiny that the natural deviation from one parse to the next is already greater than the theoretical difference your race makes. Your race cannot carry you through content, so your race cannot bar you from content either. If you wear the right sets and practise your rotation then any race can already be top dps. Or are you in the top 1% of leaderboard runs? It makes even less of a difference for healers and tanks.

I disagree, from an endgame perspective and also primarily from a pvp perspective there is a more than just notable difference in the strength of certain races.

Now it's your turn to elaborate. The damage gap from best to worst since Wrathstone has been no more than 8%. Is that "more than just notable difference"? Because when you have 100k dps at base whether you deal 100k or 108k really won't change much. The average person is far far far away from dealing anywhere near that amount of damage and so the difference the racial passives make, in absolute numbers, shrinks down to pretty much nothing. Your crit RNG makes a bigger difference than your race choice. Next patch that difference will only shrink further because LA will stop scaling with damage stats so that is going to decrease the impact of racials. It only makes a difference for the very top of the leader board because having all of your 8 DDs be on an optimal race adds up and gives you a better time over groups that don't have optimal races, but for dungeons and arenas it doesn't matter at all.

PvP is an entirely different beast, but it doesn't serve the point you are trying to make at all. The reason a race is weak in PvE is because extra sustain doesn't translate into extra damage once you have enough. But in PvP your sustain is a lot worse, which makes sustain races just as strong as the other options, as sustain does translate into extra damage there because you need to heavy attack less. And even tank races gain benefits in PvP by simply being harder to kill, which allows them to play more offensively. Every single race in PvP is viable, you just have to play to your strengths. If you are trying to play an Argonian but you aren't using potions, then of course you will fall behind and Redguards should make use of as many weapon skills as they can - weapon ultimates included (Toxic Barrage, Shield Wall, Panacea, Eye of the Storm). Play to your strengths and you'll see success.
Let me ask you honestly, when was the last time you thought "this stupid guy just killed me because he had 258 extra weapon damage from his racial choice" in PvP? I'm pretty sure that never happened. But when was the last time you thought about a proc set, Oakensoul, or some overpowered skill that was used against you? There you have your answer. The races are balanced right now, even more so in PvP than in PvE - they just aren't equally fun/flexible and some disregard established lore.

First of all I want them to stop the balancing for awhile, it's not that they have some sort of vision still to even tackle it. Secondly I prefer it elder scrolls way - fixed bonuses, at the very maximum I'd take passives morphs, more like education or upbringing but it would be just a mechanical addition having nothing to do with scrolls at this point.

picking your own passives will probably lead to another major power creep. I think it best to just rework racials that under perform like Redguard and Nord for example.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

Would love this since it would let me play any race in any role I like.

But you already can...
The differences between best and worst race are so tiny that the natural deviation from one parse to the next is already greater than the theoretical difference your race makes. Your race cannot carry you through content, so your race cannot bar you from content either. If you wear the right sets and practise your rotation then any race can already be top dps. Or are you in the top 1% of leaderboard runs? It makes even less of a difference for healers and tanks.

I disagree, from an endgame perspective and also primarily from a pvp perspective there is a more than just notable difference in the strength of certain races.

Now it's your turn to elaborate. The damage gap from best to worst since Wrathstone has been no more than 8%. Is that "more than just notable difference"? Because when you have 100k dps at base whether you deal 100k or 108k really won't change much. The average person is far far far away from dealing anywhere near that amount of damage and so the difference the racial passives make, in absolute numbers, shrinks down to pretty much nothing. Your crit RNG makes a bigger difference than your race choice. Next patch that difference will only shrink further because LA will stop scaling with damage stats so that is going to decrease the impact of racials. It only makes a difference for the very top of the leader board because having all of your 8 DDs be on an optimal race adds up and gives you a better time over groups that don't have optimal races, but for dungeons and arenas it doesn't matter at all.

PvP is an entirely different beast, but it doesn't serve the point you are trying to make at all. The reason a race is weak in PvE is because extra sustain doesn't translate into extra damage once you have enough. But in PvP your sustain is a lot worse, which makes sustain races just as strong as the other options, as sustain does translate into extra damage there because you need to heavy attack less. And even tank races gain benefits in PvP by simply being harder to kill, which allows them to play more offensively. Every single race in PvP is viable, you just have to play to your strengths. If you are trying to play an Argonian but you aren't using potions, then of course you will fall behind and Redguards should make use of as many weapon skills as they can - weapon ultimates included (Toxic Barrage, Shield Wall, Panacea, Eye of the Storm). Play to your strengths and you'll see success.
Let me ask you honestly, when was the last time you thought "this stupid guy just killed me because he had 258 extra weapon damage from his racial choice" in PvP? I'm pretty sure that never happened. But when was the last time you thought about a proc set, Oakensoul, or some overpowered skill that was used against you? There you have your answer. The races are balanced right now, even more so in PvP than in PvE - they just aren't equally fun/flexible and some disregard established lore.

For me at least, 8k dps is a big difference because I like to shoot for as close the max as I can. That being said I am primarily a pvper and from a pvp standpoint there are races like khajiit that are so much better than the alternatives.

If I'm being honest the reason, I made this post was because I really don't want to go khajiit on a lot of my specs even though its clearly the best and it's not even close. I'd rather pay for a token that allowed me a different set of passives.

I expected some opposition when I started this because I know it wouldn't be the most roleplay friendly change, but I wanted to see where the majority stand.

I get the sentiment. Right now crit builds are quite strong in PvP, mainly due to Oakensoul having Major Force (it should have minor force tbh as in PvE you get Major from Warhorn and it frees another skill slot) and everyone running crit chance because of it. That's why Khajiit are currently overperforming a little, but give it time and the meta will shift away from crit again and Khajiit will be back in line with the rest without any adjustments needing to be made to the races.

For me it is the stealth bonus that's exclusive to Khajiit now. Back in Morrowind I specifically made a stam warden Bosmer because "animal companions" -duh- and I wanted to be stealthy without being a NB and didn't want another Khajiit. Stealth has always been a Bosmer thing, even in previous games. Then Wrathstone came and replaced it with useless detection. I didn't use my race change tokens because I wanted to play Bosmer and not Khajiit on that character. It sucks, and I would choose a stealth bonus in a heartbeat if I could - because Bosmer are stealthy. But there is no point to racials if they aren't accurate, that's why I would want racials to be fixed rather than side-stepping the underlying issue by letting everyone pick the passives of this months' strongest race. That's how I feel about it.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I'll try to keep this short. Now that the game has become more hybridized what are people's thoughts about being able to choose your starting bonuses instead?
For example, I think argonians and redguards are cool races, but their passives fall short.
Might also increase the sale of race change/passive change tokens hint hint zos

Anyways let me know what you think. I imagine some people might be opposed to this but lets see what the majority think.

I'd like racial passives to go away personally and choose which star you were born under like some of the previous games to set you up for a play style. There's no reason that if I want to min/max I should be forced into a particular race and the selectable constellation would make that possible. I suspect this is what you are getting at as well.