This is definitely true.

You will only discover how mechanics work in this game by asking questions and testing things yourself - there is basically no documentation whatsoever about anything in the game relevant to combat or character optimization.

How the game has come this far without this sort of basic information being available is one of the biggest mysteries of ESO.

I think that instead of punishing good players for being um... good, they should do something that will very gently encourage um "low-end" players (not force them), just passively encourage them to improve.

And the reason why majority of players are not improving is that.... they don't need to. All they do is overland and group dungeons, and maybe some DLC group dungeons. For that, low DPS is um "good enough" to complete the content.

Majority of players don't even touch Trials because of a hassle it requires. It is either a long and obtuse "LFG" chat mini-game or being forced to join a progression guild (and lets face it - if you join a PvE raiding guild then you are no longer a low-end player).

^ I simply think that for many players, It is simply too big of a barrier. There is no need for something like this to do 4 - man dungeons, so no wonder a lot of players don't even bother with Trials and stick to dungeons. They don't do harder content, so no need to improve.

I think that if... if ZOS would take different approach and for example they would add a Group Finder support for Trials & Arenas, then after like 1 year, the overall "gap" between player performance would decrease (Even if it was only for normal mode). And the gap would not be smaller because top players will somehow get worse at the game. No. It is the overall skill of the "low-end" players that will go up a bit. It would go up, simply because it would be easy to just start doing end-game PvE. You just open a menu and *poof" - mm will find you a team - just like with dungeons. Sure, it would be kinda bad at 1st, but everyone has to start somewhere. And keep in mind what ESO player base consists of. There are a lot of solo players that play this game, simply because it is a "TES" game.

Note:
"Gap" in player performance is not something that one can "patch" with an update. Something like this requires time. Just like learning the game. It takes time. Imho, whatever ZOS will do, it should not be their goal just for 1 update (so the top DPS would drop till you buy new OP mythic), but rather it should be a permanent goal that is being carefully looked at every update, with small incremental changes.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

^ I simply think that for many players, It is simply too big of a barrier. There is no need for something like this to do 4 - man dungeons, so no wonder a lot of players don't even bother with Trials and stick to dungeons. They don't do harder content, so no need to improve.

I think that if... if ZOS would take different approach and for example they would add a Group Finder support for Trials & Arenas, then after like 1 year, the overall "gap" between player performance would decrease (Even if it was only for normal mode). And the gap would not be smaller because top players will somehow get worse at the game. No. It is the overall skill of the "low-end" players that will go up a bit. It would go up, simply because it would be easy to just start doing end-game PvE. You just open a menu and *poof" - mm will find you a team - just like with dungeons. Sure, it would be kinda bad at 1st, but everyone has to start somewhere. And keep in mind what ESO player base consists of. There are a lot of solo players that play this game, simply because it is a "TES" game.

@Tommy_The_Gun this is precisely why I'm happy to see Nefas' "Project Vitality" over on the ESOU discord. It's teaching people how to raid in ESO with volunteer raid leaders from established trial guilds and they actually teach new players mechanics and have a trial progression system where you start off completing vCrag HMs, then vMOL HM, and then once those hurdles are cleared participate in the newer harder stuff. I think it's an excellent crawl/walk/run system for people to learn how to raid.

That being said I'm all for a normal mode Trial group finder for people to get their feet wet. The only potential downside (and it's not a big one) would be if nobody in the trial has run it before (can you imagine this scenario in Kyne's Aegis) and nobody's in charge and they wipe over and over again discouraging people from running them. It's not a huge hurdle as we had an Operations (their trials) Group Finder in SWTOR for normal mode and if nobody knew what was going on I'd explain the mechanics before each boss but it is something to consider. I suspect ZoS would likely nerf normal mode trials for accessibility to the general player base if a group finder for trials was released. That would be a negative IMO.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I think that instead of punishing good players for being um... good, they should do something that will very gently encourage um "low-end" players (not force them), just passively encourage them to improve.

And the reason why majority of players are not improving is that.... they don't need to. All they do is overland and group dungeons, and maybe some DLC group dungeons. For that, low DPS is um "good enough" to complete the content.

Majority of players don't even touch Trials because of a hassle it requires. It is either a long and obtuse "LFG" chat mini-game or being forced to join a progression guild (and lets face it - if you join a PvE raiding guild then you are no longer a low-end player).

^ I simply think that for many players, It is simply too big of a barrier. There is no need for something like this to do 4 - man dungeons, so no wonder a lot of players don't even bother with Trials and stick to dungeons. They don't do harder content, so no need to improve.

I think that if... if ZOS would take different approach and for example they would add a Group Finder support for Trials & Arenas, then after like 1 year, the overall "gap" between player performance would decrease (Even if it was only for normal mode). And the gap would not be smaller because top players will somehow get worse at the game. No. It is the overall skill of the "low-end" players that will go up a bit. It would go up, simply because it would be easy to just start doing end-game PvE. You just open a menu and *poof" - mm will find you a team - just like with dungeons. Sure, it would be kinda bad at 1st, but everyone has to start somewhere. And keep in mind what ESO player base consists of. There are a lot of solo players that play this game, simply because it is a "TES" game.

Note:
"Gap" in player performance is not something that one can "patch" with an update. Something like this requires time. Just like learning the game. It takes time. Imho, whatever ZOS will do, it should not be their goal just for 1 update (so the top DPS would drop till you buy new OP mythic), but rather it should be a permanent goal that is being carefully looked at every update, with small incremental changes.

I think it's because they're not competitive players - and those are the only ones to whom this thread is really of any significance.

It's very rare in a MMO that the highest difficulty level content such as trials and raids is of any interest to more than 10% of the players.

I have no idea what weaving is and probably never will. I don't do high end content either. Even helms are hidden behind The Golden for me for the most part.

Anything you need to play the game should be in the game as well. You should not HAVE TO go to a website to learn about the game, but that is not the case now.

If weaving is so vital, have a place where you can be taught it, perhaps multiple times, in the game, for example!

Amottica wrote: »

Most documentation about optimization and combat in any MMORPG comes from players. While Developers know how they built a game they lack the expertise in what is an optimal build and the best ways to handle specific mechanics beyond the very basic.

This. Every MMO that I've played & read the forums of, there have been "the game doesn't teach you how to play it!" complaints.
(that's part of why the devs have such a hard time controlling the upper end of DPS - it's produced by skill & player & equipment interactions that they never imagined, and therefore have a hard time 'fixing'.)


And personally, I've got no time for any of that stuff. I've no interest in having to 'do homework' to play a game. So no, I'm not going to read your guide, go to your discord, or any of that other stuff. It's just not that important. (luckily, I've also got no interest in high level/endgame competitive content. So my being 'bad' at the game won't inflict itself on your groups. Nor will I complain that I can't get a group for <whatever> )

Jaimeh wrote: »

What I don't like is ZOS actually hurting players by their 'play as you want' philosophy, low effort damage, etc., because they want to appease the majority instead of actually teaching players about combat early on. There are people who legitimately have mobility issues, and would otherwise play better because they know core combat mechanics/their role/trial mechanics etc., and they should have options, but the majority is players who could physically play better but never put the effort to learn, and want free damage for lazy mode. It's been said many times that most things can be cleared with lower dps and correct execution of mechanics, yet how many groups are like that? Usually low dps runs are accompanied by wipes and sloppy clears because very few people actually understand mechanics, have raid awareness, and don't tunnel vision. A lot of the harder ESO content has very intricate mechanics and also many of them, and yet the vast majority of the population doesn't even move away from the aoe's timely...

*Edited because I misinterpreted your first statement*. I do not think 'play as you want' hurts players. There is still skill involved in other aspects of combat beyond this one mechanic.

It is my opinion that the unreasonably high amount of damage given to one specific manipulation of mechanics, (LA weaving in combination with animation cancelling) forces people into the same play style regardless of class, abilities, champion points, sets, etc. I find this to be the most counter productive thing to alternate play styles and class choice. By removing so much focus on this one single thing and balancing out the damage to other skills, it will allow for more diverse combat styles.

I think people are missing the point when it comes to the players who welcome this proposed change. I want more focus on the vast majority of other things that can contribute to combat, and less on this ONE 20% mechanic that causes little more to this game than contention.

There is so much misunderstanding... people like myself are welcoming to this change not because we don't know how to LA weave, it's because I'm sick of doing the same thing on all my characters for years. I want the other investments in grinding for sets and champion points and learning boss mechanics to mean more. I want to stop doing the same 2 button tap over and over until my fingers swell... it's boring. I also hate the look, feel, and flow of combat when my character looks like they are having a seizure. I find combat much more fun and engaging when the pace is slightly slower and I can see most of the animations play out.

Varana wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sure, but a lot of that knowledge gap in this game is coming from basic mechanics and not just not knowing how to do a particular dungeon. Other MMOs I played, I could just go in there and decent gear with a PUG and learn it the hard way. Some of my favorite memories of gaming comes from joining a pug group for a raid, slinging back a ton of Red Bull, and just figuring out stuff by throwing myself into it over and over til we got it done. Sometimes we'd "cheat" and look up a guide, but it wasn't required with the perseverance to throw myself at that content for hours. And I would finish that same day, not later that month.

This is not the case for ESO. And I think a major part of that is that even combat basics are obscure. In other games the arcane knowledge is stuff like which skills make great combos. Stuff more likely to be learned by trial and error if you didn't get involved in all the guides and such. That entire upper-middle scene is largely absent in this game, and the game is poorer for it.

You can still do this. People do it every time a new dungeon or trial drops on the PTS. And if you avoid spoilers (i.e. not for the story but for the mechanics), you can do that for a while until the know-how has permeated into general knowledge. I know a few groups who tried to figure out the vDSR twins on their own, for instance.

No. Not really. Maybe it's different on other servers but there is almost no PUG activity for vet trials since SS on mine. Well, outside of Craglorn trials. It's only the normal trials and those are not remotely the same. And the two newest ones basically never get plugged either.

AzuraFan wrote: »

[...]

The rest of us don't care. We log in to quest, explore, decorate our houses, dig up antiquities, try on different outfits, roleplay, get an achievement or two, take screenshots of interesting places, dance to the bards' music, maybe meet up with guildies occasionally to do some overland group stuff, etc. One of the things I love doing is just riding around a zone at top speed. Why? It's fun.

It's not a matter of a knowledge gap or, "If we could only enlighten those poor players who only do 15K DPS and bring them into the light, everyone would be running trials 24/7." To be blunt, your light is not what I want to be wasting spending my gaming time on. Which is okay. We're different people.

ZOS has the challenge of balancing things so we can both exist in the same game and enjoy ourselves. Neither of us is a bad player. We just have different priorities when we're in-game.

Thats nonesense. Only 1 thing matters: You prioretize understanding the combat system over doing dungeons/ raids.
It does not matter whether it's on top of your priority list or all the way down. It's only importent that "learning how to do stuff" is of higher priority than "doing stuff"

And thats the problem with ESO players, thay want/ demand to be able to do dungeons/ raids but learning how to do them "is not what they want to be wasting spending there gaming time on."

So if you say learning how to run dungeons/ raids "is not what I want to be wasting spending my gaming time on."
Than i hope you also say doing dungeons/ raids "is not what I want to be wasting spending my gaming time on."

Because picking up your slack is not what I want to be spending wasting my gaming time on.

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

Thats nonesense. Only 1 thing matters: You prioretize understanding the combat system over doing dungeons/ raids.
It does not matter whether it's on top of your priority list or all the way down. It's only importent that "learning how to do stuff" is of higher priority than "doing stuff"

And thats the problem with ESO players, thay want/ demand to be able to do dungeons/ raids but learning how to do them "is not what they want to be wasting spending there gaming time on."

So if you say learning how to run dungeons/ raids "is not what I want to be wasting spending my gaming time on."
Than i hope you also say doing dungeons/ raids "is not what I want to be wasting spending my gaming time on."

Because picking up your slack is not what I want to be spending wasting my gaming time on.

You see there's, my version of "understanding the combat system" as in....Managing your resources, selecting your passives and morphs, selecting your champion points, managing your buffs, debuffs, heals, dots, spamables, boss mechanics, knowing your rotation etc.

And then there's presumably your version of "understanding the combat system" as in, learn how to do this thing that acts and feels like an exploit of conflicting game mechanics and makes your character look like its glitching.

It's not laziness to want this game to put more emphasis on all the other components of combat and not let this single, seemingly exploitive mechanic dominate everything we do in the game. There is a lot that goes into combat that is overlooked and overshadowed by this single mechanic.

To clarify, when I refer to LA Weaving, I'm specifically referring to the act of LA weaving in combination with animation canceling and cooldowns for 20% of total damage. The thing that everyone tells every player of every class they MUST do in order to be a productive member of ESO.

Way to get antagonistic guys... 🙄

Chadwick wrote: »

It's not laziness to want this game to put more emphasis on all the other components of combat and not let this single, seemingly exploitive mechanic dominate everything we do in the game. There is a lot that goes into combat that is overlooked and overshadowed by this single mechanic.

To clarify, when I refer to LA Weaving, I'm specifically referring to the act of LA weaving in combination with animation canceling and cooldowns for 20% of total damage. The thing that everyone tells every player of every class they MUST do in order to be a productive member of ESO.

The idea that weaving is a massive part of dps is not quite right. High end players do 100k+ dps, so even if you remove up to 20% of damage we're still left with 80k+ dps. The difference between doing 30k and 100k dps is not light attack weaving.
Yes, it does add damage and it is considered a standard for players who want to do end game content, but it is fully possible to do 100k dps without a single light attack.

Chadwick wrote: »

[...]
And then there's presumably your version of "understanding the combat system" as in, learn how to do this thing that acts and feels like an exploit of conflicting game mechanics and makes your character look like its glitching.

[...]

To clarify, when I refer to LA Weaving, I'm specifically referring to the act of LA weaving in combination with animation canceling and cooldowns for 20% of total damage. The thing that everyone tells every player of every class they MUST do in order to be a productive member of ESO.

Uh? Maybe my english is bad but as far as i am aware the comments i was replying to had nothing to do with la weaving?

AzuraFan wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

So no, I'm not going to read your guide, go to your discord, or any of that other stuff. It's just not that important...

It's not a matter of a knowledge gap or, "If we could only enlighten those poor players who only do 15K DPS and bring them into the light, everyone would be running trials 24/7." To be blunt, your light is not what I want to be wasting spending my gaming time on. Which is okay. We're different people.

ZOS has the challenge of balancing things so we can both exist in the same game and enjoy ourselves. Neither of us is a bad player. We just have different priorities when we're in-game.

Because ZOS is NOT supposed to balance things so players who do not care abaout the combat system can exist in the same dungeons and raids as players who do care.

And you dont need LA weaving for 99% of the content.
Idk who "everyone" in your opinion is, but if they tell you every player of every class MUST do LA weaving in order to be a productive member of ESO, ... your playing with the wrong people.

Chadwick wrote: »

There is a lot that goes into combat that is overlooked and overshadowed by this single mechanic.

No thers not.
Otherwise give exemples.

Chadwick wrote: »

After re-reading I assume you mean that there is nothing overshadowed by LA weaving? If that's the case, just go to any content creators videos or site and see how much emphasis they put on this mechanic. This whole thread starts off with focus on LA weaving. most of the posts and threads the past two days revolve around it.

Yes, i mean that there is nothing overshadowed by LA weaving. That's the case.
But i honestly dont see that content creators videos or sites put much emphasis on this mechanic.

For exemple Alacast Builds for Necro Dps:
light attacks are mentioned only 2 times.
I would not call this "puting much emphasis on it".
Maybe you can show me different exemples where they do ?

And yes, this whole thread starts off with focus on LA weaving and most of the posts and threads the past two days revolve around it because players complained about it or somehting? and now it will be changed.

If somehting is about to be changed, people will talk about it.

Word. I play ESO to relax and have fun. It's a game, not a job.

Give me a penny each time someone comes up with this sentence... I'd be a rich man.

First off, it is not a job because you are not getting payed for it and you can stop doing it whenever you want. But let's ignore semantics for the moment.

Trying to get better at something, puttin effort into something, spending time studying something is NOT a job. For some people, it can be relaxing, it can be fun, it can be the main reason to actually play the game. It is the same with every activity, playing an instrument, painting, sports, chess and any other aspect of life that offers room for individual improvement.
You might not find that process entertaining, but a lot of people do and they are having as much fun as you have.