I am one of the worst weavers in the game but...

Redguards_Revenge · July 2022

Tell it like it is ZOS. You want to nerf top end players so that you can reliably track how much DPS output they can do. Once you have that, you'll be able to make sure they adhere to the PVE rules you set in the dungeons.

People who can't weave and complain about it why do you? I can't weave for anything. I refuse to stand somewhere for hours in a guildhouse to accurately time my attacks for the highest dps. Yet at the same time, this is free dps that anybody could obtain without having to buy, trade, sell, etc. All it takes is time. Time I won't bother investing but none the less there for those who do.

Now as you can see 99% of players probably don't weave. So then ZoS is stuck with a dilemma. How do we design a dungeon for everyone? Yet make it challenging for the end players. The obvious answer to this is to nerf things that are variable like light attack weave.

Also 99% of players hate bar swapping. OakenSoul has shown this.

In a sense, removing the things that make the top end players top end and adding things that all players can easily do like increasing DoTs does lower the gap.... Everybody can put on DoTs and they can deal with all their problems within that 20 seconds. They can even walk away and the DPS just keeps going.

Even if they can weave to the max output they are reliably predictable since it's capped. This allows ZoS to reliably make content that is for everyone. It also allow them to reliably target us with certain things by not letting us get around it.

All that text to say " We wanted to get the high-end players in line with the system we are going forward with. To make their output predictable so that we can reliably make content"

Expect more changes to come.

FluffyBird · July 2022

Oh, dungeon people... wait, I mean, the dev team who make dungeons, they surely do love making players clear their content the intended way. I mean, that skip in Direfrost didn't hurt anyone, did it?

So this is an unironically interesting theory.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Tell it like it is ZOS. You want to nerf top end players so that you can reliably track how much DPS output they can do.

They can already do that. They don't need to create massive balance changes to track basic gameplay data.

ArcVelarian · July 2022

If anything it's that weaving was never actually an intended feature of the game and has not actually been fully integrated into the combat system in any meaningful way. Save for its long ability cooldowns, New World's combat is a good example of how weaving should work.

DagenHawk · July 2022

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Expect more changes to come.

I hope so... ZoS has just made it clear that ESO isn't for just the damage meter crowd.

A couple YouTubers kept telling us in the past couple months that the game was going to become this Raiding Utopia and us normal players would have to deal with that... They were pretty belligerent about it...it truly worried me. After all I saw a dev on one of their streams more than once.

I personally am glad they were mistaken.

chessalavakia_ESO · July 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Expect more changes to come.

I hope so... ZoS has just made it clear that ESO isn't for just the damage meter crowd.

A couple YouTubers kept telling us in the past couple months that the game was going to become this Raiding Utopia and us normal players would have to deal with that... They were pretty belligerent about it...it truly worried me. After all I saw a dev on one of their streams more than once.

I personally am glad they were mistaken.

I'd argue the changes look like they are primarily driving at attempting creating a raiding utopia it's just that the developers definition of a raiding utopia and the vocal raiders doesn't exactly match.

The prime example of this would be the DOT changes.

For the DOT change to be an upgrade over the current DOT, the npc that is dotted needs to be alive for at least 15 seconds. In most of the games content that isn't going to be happening.

Trials would be one of the primary areas where it would potentially actually be a benefit.

washbern · July 2022

I don't understand the point of this post. Is it "I suck, don't care to get better, therefore the company must make the game so face roll easy that I can clear all content"?

Because for those people who are not good, there is normal difficulty. For those who are good or care to become good there is vet difficulty followed by DLC Vet.

tmbrinks · July 2022

The changes are not going to "narrow the gap", at least on a percentage basis, maybe on an subtractive sense (because 10% off of somebody doing 100k is going to lose more dps than somebody losing 10% of 30k).

Those that just spam light attacks will continue to do so and wonder why nothing dies.

The best players will still be the best players, they will still do the most damage. They will work on their craft to be the best that they can, regardless of any changes. The 90% of players who don't read the forums will wonder why they are significantly weaker when U35 hits, and may decide to go play a game that doesn't take away their power.

I just hope the dungeon/trial team takes into account the lower levels of DPS, because the damage required just to clear the last two trials and four dungeons (on vet HM) far surpass that of any other content, by at least 30%. I'm sure the internal metrics show a significantly lower clear rate than most other content at this stage of its life.

As a not-top tier raider (but somebody who has all the trifectas other than Rockgrove and Dread Sail), I really feel as if the dungeon/trial team has made it their personal mission to create content that really does only cater to that extreme edge, and I have seen a significant drop in the number of raiders at my level. Sure, there are plenty who are running veteran and normal content, but the gap between Vet and Vet HM is now far wider than it's ever been, putting it into the stratosphere where a very tiny minority can do it (or are able to commit to raiding 3/4 times a week for 3/4 hours... many of us can't, we have jobs, families, friends, other games to play, etc...)

spartaxoxo · July 2022

I don't think everyone will lose similar amounts. People who don't light attack weave at all may lose barely any damage, while people who light attack often will lose more. The more you used light and heavy attacks in your combat, the more damage you'd lose.

Jpk0012 · July 2022

The more they nerf high end DPS the more they hurt intermediate players and their game. If they want to bring high end DPS down the only answer is capping and bringing in diminishing returns for crit chance and weapon/spell damage. They had zero problems nerfing tanks into uselessness. Every other nerf will hurt the intermediate players like the foolish CP nerf they just did.

Unless, they start balancing the game off newbie players, they have no business trying to mainline DPS based off newbie players.

Tannus15 · July 2022

Jpk0012 wrote: »

The more they nerf high end DPS the more they hurt intermediate players and their game. If they want to bring high end DPS down the only answer is capping and bringing in diminishing returns for crit chance and weapon/spell damage. They had zero problems nerfing tanks into uselessness. Every other nerf will hurt the intermediate players like the foolish CP nerf they just did.

Unless, they start balancing the game off newbie players, they have no business trying to mainline DPS based off newbie players.

even then, it's still missing the mark

a lot of the mid tier groups have the same stats as the top tier group, they just aren't as good at the game. better players can do all the mechanics while keeping up a flawless rotation with the correct target focus.
that's what makes this game fun, the skill gap matters. it's a good thing.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

Most mid-tier groups absolutely do not have the same stats as top tier groups.

Tannus15 · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Most mid-tier groups absolutely do not have the same stats as top tier groups.

ok, sure. let me rephrase. even if a mid tier group gets all the same buffs and uptimes and stats, their dps will not be close to a top tier group.

you see it on dummy parses, never mind actual content with mechanics.

take one of the top tier dps and drop them into a mid tier group and they will do 20%+ of the dps.

put whatever caps you want in place, it's not going to stop people dying and losing dps. it's not going to increase the APM of the mid tier and it's not going to make the APM they do have be used in the most effective way possible.

katanagirl1 · July 2022

I will be watching this to see just what ends up happening. I have seen a few posts but don’t quite understand the details.

Lots of posts here in this section from elite players assume that if you have a good skill rotation that high dps is a sure thing when light weaving but I can assure you it is not. It’s not that I have low dps because I’m just spamming light attacks and don’t know better as suggested.

This high APM thing is not a good ergonomic thing for anyone to be doing even if you’re young, which I am definitely not. If it makes it easier to do more game content without damaging my bad wrist I might be alright with it.

NordSwordnBoard · July 2022

I guess the in-game tutorial failed if it only got 1% of people to weave.

I wonder if 100% of the people who didn't buy the chapter love bar swapping?

Logics!

DagenHawk · July 2022

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Expect more changes to come.

I hope so... ZoS has just made it clear that ESO isn't for just the damage meter crowd.

A couple YouTubers kept telling us in the past couple months that the game was going to become this Raiding Utopia and us normal players would have to deal with that... They were pretty belligerent about it...it truly worried me. After all I saw a dev on one of their streams more than once.

I personally am glad they were mistaken.

I'd argue the changes look like they are primarily driving at attempting creating a raiding utopia it's just that the developers definition of a raiding utopia and the vocal raiders doesn't exactly match.

The prime example of this would be the DOT changes.

For the DOT change to be an upgrade over the current DOT, the npc that is dotted needs to be alive for at least 15 seconds. In most of the games content that isn't going to be happening.

Trials would be one of the primary areas where it would potentially actually be a benefit.

You would be the only one...just go to the Youtube sites that are pro raiding...you are hearing things like "Everyone gets a trophy!!!!" and "Way to screw the Vets!!!

I mean hell just look at this thread....

I don't understand the point of this post. Is it "I suck, don't care to get better, therefore the company must make the game so face roll easy that I can clear all content"?

No...this is a big statement by ZoS...you really can't twist it...but that was a good if not hilarious try.

ZeroDPS · July 2022

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Tell it like it is ZOS. You want to nerf top end players so that you can reliably track how much DPS output they can do. Once you have that, you'll be able to make sure they adhere to the PVE rules you set in the dungeons.

People who can't weave and complain about it why do you? I can't weave for anything. I refuse to stand somewhere for hours in a guildhouse to accurately time my attacks for the highest dps. Yet at the same time, this is free dps that anybody could obtain without having to buy, trade, sell, etc. All it takes is time. Time I won't bother investing but none the less there for those who do.

Now as you can see 99% of players probably don't weave. So then ZoS is stuck with a dilemma. How do we design a dungeon for everyone? Yet make it challenging for the end players. The obvious answer to this is to nerf things that are variable like light attack weave.

Also 99% of players hate bar swapping. OakenSoul has shown this.

In a sense, removing the things that make the top end players top end and adding things that all players can easily do like increasing DoTs does lower the gap.... Everybody can put on DoTs and they can deal with all their problems within that 20 seconds. They can even walk away and the DPS just keeps going.

Even if they can weave to the max output they are reliably predictable since it's capped. This allows ZoS to reliably make content that is for everyone. It also allow them to reliably target us with certain things by not letting us get around it.

All that text to say " We wanted to get the high-end players in line with the system we are going forward with. To make their output predictable so that we can reliably make content"

Expect more changes to come.

omgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

guys from year to year you ask ZOS to cut and nerf everything in game.... holy moly, no bar swap, no weaving, no separate phy/mag resistances and no phy/mag damage, hybrid sets, so at the end of the day we gonna have a game in which we have 3 params, HP, attack and def on top of that you stand in one place without moving and hitting just one button to attack........

ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!!!?!??!?!?

ZeroDPS · July 2022

@Redguards_Revenge

ZeroDPS · July 2022

you had better play on your phone some of tap rpgs....

carlos424 · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think everyone will lose similar amounts. People who don't light attack weave at all may lose barely any damage, while people who light attack often will lose more. The more you used light and heavy attacks in your combat, the more damage you'd lose.

When you weave in a light attack with a regular attack, you are basically getting free damage from the light attack, because you can do both within the one second cooldown. Now, if zos were to make light attacks have the same 1 second cooldown as other skills, you wouldn’t see anyone light attacking. The people who will get hit the hardest are the people (usually beginners) who do alot of light attacking and don’t keep up their other skills.

zaria · July 2022

ZeroDPS wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Tell it like it is ZOS. You want to nerf top end players so that you can reliably track how much DPS output they can do. Once you have that, you'll be able to make sure they adhere to the PVE rules you set in the dungeons.

People who can't weave and complain about it why do you? I can't weave for anything. I refuse to stand somewhere for hours in a guildhouse to accurately time my attacks for the highest dps. Yet at the same time, this is free dps that anybody could obtain without having to buy, trade, sell, etc. All it takes is time. Time I won't bother investing but none the less there for those who do.

Now as you can see 99% of players probably don't weave. So then ZoS is stuck with a dilemma. How do we design a dungeon for everyone? Yet make it challenging for the end players. The obvious answer to this is to nerf things that are variable like light attack weave.

Also 99% of players hate bar swapping. OakenSoul has shown this.

In a sense, removing the things that make the top end players top end and adding things that all players can easily do like increasing DoTs does lower the gap.... Everybody can put on DoTs and they can deal with all their problems within that 20 seconds. They can even walk away and the DPS just keeps going.

Even if they can weave to the max output they are reliably predictable since it's capped. This allows ZoS to reliably make content that is for everyone. It also allow them to reliably target us with certain things by not letting us get around it.

All that text to say " We wanted to get the high-end players in line with the system we are going forward with. To make their output predictable so that we can reliably make content"

Expect more changes to come.

omgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

guys from year to year you ask ZOS to cut and nerf everything in game.... holy moly, no bar swap, no weaving, no separate phy/mag resistances and no phy/mag damage, hybrid sets, so at the end of the day we gonna have a game in which we have 3 params, HP, attack and def on top of that you stand in one place without moving and hitting just one button to attack........

ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!!!?!??!?!?

From my signature: Asking ZoS for nerfs is like asking for close air support from the death star.
You will probably not like the result.

zaria · July 2022

carlos424 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think everyone will lose similar amounts. People who don't light attack weave at all may lose barely any damage, while people who light attack often will lose more. The more you used light and heavy attacks in your combat, the more damage you'd lose.

When you weave in a light attack with a regular attack, you are basically getting free damage from the light attack, because you can do both within the one second cooldown. Now, if zos were to make light attacks have the same 1 second cooldown as other skills, you wouldn’t see anyone light attacking. The people who will get hit the hardest are the people (usually beginners) who do alot of light attacking and don’t keep up their other skills.

Removing LA weaving would also make all sets using LA to proc useless, and its loads of them among the biz sets.
And it would make ultimate regen harder.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2022

I say wait and see on pts
As i understand, they are only capping light attack damage, wich is much closer to the nerf of a skill than the outright removal of weaving. Dont seem to be such a big deal to me but i may be missing something

Amerises · July 2022

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

I say wait and see on pts
As i understand, they are only capping light attack damage, wich is much closer to the nerf of a skill than the outright removal of weaving. Dont seem to be such a big deal to me but i may be missing something

I see a lot of posts about this change, but I haven’t been able to find where they are getting their information? What did people see/read about these changes? I feel like I’m missing something.

Paralyse · July 2022

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Now as you can see 99% of players probably don't weave. So then ZoS is stuck with a dilemma. How do we design a dungeon for everyone? Yet make it challenging for the end players. The obvious answer to this is to nerf things that are variable like light attack weave.

Also 99% of players hate bar swapping. OakenSoul has shown this.

Made-up statistics are made up and bring no value to a discussion.

The proposed changes (not even on PTS yet) will have minimal effect on min-max players and the upper echelon of 21m parsers. The changes will, however, raise the DPS of players who do not reliably light weave or heavy attack. As an added bonus, capping heavy attack damage means that some very broken heavy attack PvP builds (1 shot kill) will be corrected.

For further consideration, over the last several years, every patch or update in which ZOS claims that damage will be reduced or lowered has seen higher actual damage in both content and parses. Don't believe me? Ask someone who was running endgame content in 2016 or 2019 what was considered "top end" damage output back then. I know from personal experience that around the time of Elsweyr 80K was pretty much top end parse. As of right now 130-140k are achievable despite the "nerfs" to critical damage, item set bonuses and many other things.

Good players will find ways to be good. They will find workarounds for whatever changes ZOS makes that allow them to achieve maximum performance and maximum output. They will theorycraft, min-max, and spend hours and hours parsing with all kinds of combinations of skills, gear and CP until peak numbers are reached. History shows us that ZOS's attempts to limit top end damage are futile and ineffective. I'm not worried in the slightest about some big top end DPS loss with U35.

chessalavakia_ESO · July 2022

Pretend for a moment that you have a section of your game that has been relatively unpopular for years that you think might take off.

How do you try to make it take off?

You make changes to the content that make it easier to draw new people in while also attempting to not change how the content plays entirely.

If it works, the players you lose that like the content as it is will be outnumbered by those you gain.

If it doesn't work then the opposite will occur.

Personally, my money would be on it not working but, I've generally felt raids are a money pit so...

DagenHawk · July 2022

Paralyse wrote: »

Good players will find ways to be good. They will find workarounds for whatever changes ZOS makes that allow them to achieve maximum performance and maximum output. They will theorycraft, min-max, and spend hours and hours parsing with all kinds of combinations of skills, gear and CP until peak numbers are reached. History shows us that ZOS's attempts to limit top end damage are futile and ineffective. I'm not worried in the slightest about some big top end DPS loss with U35.

Yeah...but what if you just don't need to?

Taking Theory crafting out of the equation will open up the game and the Business model to a huge amount of people why wouldn't any business want to do that? I mean Zenimax can hold on to a small number of Grognards who are angry about everything all the time, or they can open their game up to demographics that have no issues supporting the business model and the company itself.

Equity is something that our society is finally comprehending, and companies are realizing that a more diverse audience playing your game and supporting your Business model is a good thing...those theory-crafters that seem so heroic to you hate the business model and despise those who support it. They spend the bare minimum to get to the next raid.

They spend the least, complain the most and do their damnedest to run off anyone that doesn't agree to their narrow view.

Zenimax has been telling us for over a year now that ESO is not a MMO, and that they want as many people possible to enjoy their game...but the gatekeepers refuse to hear it.

That's my two Rubles anyway.

DagenHawk · July 2022

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Pretend for a moment that you have a section of your game that has been relatively unpopular for years that you think might take off.

How do you try to make it take off?

You make changes to the content that make it easier to draw new people in while also attempting to not change how the content plays entirely.

If it works, the players you lose that like the content as it is will be outnumbered by those you gain.

If it doesn't work then the opposite will occur.

Personally, my money would be on it not working but, I've generally felt raids are a money pit so...

Raids are a money pit if you have a huge Raiding community.

ESO has a very very small raiding community not as small as the PVP community but small.

All you really have to do is listen to the Youtube streamers the raid communities keep talking about.

Those guys say constantly

that they spend little to nothing and that they pretty much despise anyone who isn't them....folks can deny it but years and years of Streams and chats say different.

I can pretty much promise you whatever the direction ESO goes marketing will have studied it up and down, so what your or my money is on really doesn't matter that much...I just talk about what I have seen in the game and the industry lately .

Game developers seem to becoming less willing to make content for a small group of people that more or less hate them, especially when there is a huge crowd of people screaming take my money.

joseayalac · July 2022

@Redguards_Revenge weaving literally is just light attacking before each skill cast. You would be surprised to find out that you can do it instantly without any practice. It's that simple.

What takes practice is the mastery of to not miss any LAs and do it as fast as possible. But everyone can weave and it will improve everyone's performance.

francesinhalover · July 2022

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Tell it like it is ZOS. You want to nerf top end players so that you can reliably track how much DPS output they can do. Once you have that, you'll be able to make sure they adhere to the PVE rules you set in the dungeons.

People who can't weave and complain about it why do you? I can't weave for anything. I refuse to stand somewhere for hours in a guildhouse to accurately time my attacks for the highest dps. Yet at the same time, this is free dps that anybody could obtain without having to buy, trade, sell, etc. All it takes is time. Time I won't bother investing but none the less there for those who do.

Now as you can see 99% of players probably don't weave. So then ZoS is stuck with a dilemma. How do we design a dungeon for everyone? Yet make it challenging for the end players. The obvious answer to this is to nerf things that are variable like light attack weave.

Also 99% of players hate bar swapping. OakenSoul has shown this.

In a sense, removing the things that make the top end players top end and adding things that all players can easily do like increasing DoTs does lower the gap.... Everybody can put on DoTs and they can deal with all their problems within that 20 seconds. They can even walk away and the DPS just keeps going.

Even if they can weave to the max output they are reliably predictable since it's capped. This allows ZoS to reliably make content that is for everyone. It also allow them to reliably target us with certain things by not letting us get around it.

All that text to say " We wanted to get the high-end players in line with the system we are going forward with. To make their output predictable so that we can reliably make content"

Expect more changes to come.

"Now as you can see 99% of players probably don't weave" Weaving is so insanely easy that's extremely hard to believe.
I would say 40% max doesn't weave.
all you need to do is click the mouse when skills are ending, there's no difficulty to it.
Doing pro player perfect weaving is a diferent story.

that being said, this changes will kill the dps of anyone that weaves by around 15%-20% ignoring the dot changes.
And you can't possibly think they will buff the dmg can you? this is just a way to nerf all dps in the game and hurt all players.
You can't possibly think they want players to do 130k on trials right? This is clearly to nerf that. And it's insane to think the average player were even near that lvl, since they struggle to even reach 100k

Dawnblade · July 2022

Paralyse wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Now as you can see 99% of players probably don't weave. So then ZoS is stuck with a dilemma. How do we design a dungeon for everyone? Yet make it challenging for the end players. The obvious answer to this is to nerf things that are variable like light attack weave.

Also 99% of players hate bar swapping. OakenSoul has shown this.

Made-up statistics are made up and bring no value to a discussion.

The proposed changes (not even on PTS yet) will have minimal effect on min-max players and the upper echelon of 21m parsers. The changes will, however, raise the DPS of players who do not reliably light weave or heavy attack. As an added bonus, capping heavy attack damage means that some very broken heavy attack PvP builds (1 shot kill) will be corrected.

For further consideration, over the last several years, every patch or update in which ZOS claims that damage will be reduced or lowered has seen higher actual damage in both content and parses. Don't believe me? Ask someone who was running endgame content in 2016 or 2019 what was considered "top end" damage output back then. I know from personal experience that around the time of Elsweyr 80K was pretty much top end parse. As of right now 130-140k are achievable despite the "nerfs" to critical damage, item set bonuses and many other things.

Good players will find ways to be good. They will find workarounds for whatever changes ZOS makes that allow them to achieve maximum performance and maximum output. They will theorycraft, min-max, and spend hours and hours parsing with all kinds of combinations of skills, gear and CP until peak numbers are reached. History shows us that ZOS's attempts to limit top end damage are futile and ineffective. I'm not worried in the slightest about some big top end DPS loss with U35.

I recall when getting 50K was considered really good, and no one was getting anywhere near 100K.

I also remember vet level removal, 1T changes, Morrowind sustain nerfs, multiple changes to CP, etc, etc, that were all going to 'kill the game' from players or 'reduce damage / narrow gap / improve combat' from ZOS.

Oh and lastly the comment about players finding creative ways to adapt to changes is true in all games, however, only in ESO have I seen change after change after change designed to constrain power creep fail so spectaculary.

In other words, just because ZOS has shown such ineptitude at controlling dps doesn't mean games cannot control dps.