Too much disadvantage for player who draws second

AnduinTryggva · July 2022

The player who draws first has imho a fair advantage for winning a game which is not balanced by the 1 gold that the player who draws second gets automatically.

I explain:
In the first draw the player in turn has a 50% chance to generate 4 gold. If there is a good card that is 2 or 4 gold he will draw it. If there isn't such a card he will swap a 1-gold card versus a 2 gold card which will be placed in his cool down stack.

The second player has also a 50% chance to generate 4 golds with his/her cards which yields 5 gold. If there had been a 4 gold card initially the other player would have drawn it and the second player needs some luck to get also a good 4 gold card. The chances are identical that a 6 gold card pops up in the tavern which exceeds in most cases the capabilities to buy for the second player (only 25% chance at best). If there is no card to buy for the second player he will do a card swap using the bank.

As the first player had the opportunity to either buy a good card or swap a 1 gold card first the chances are about 20% that he will get this good card or the 2 gold card in his third draw while for the second player the bought card or the 2 gold card is still in his cool down stack. This advantage remains during the first draws and will only diminish with time.

KefkaGestahl · July 2022

Yet I have had plenty of games where I see an armory in the opening draw and yet I'm stuck with four coins, practically guaranteeing the second person is able to buy it due to the extra gold.

Skvysh · July 2022

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

In the first draw the player in turn has a 50% chance to generate 4 gold.

Neither Pelin nor Red Eagle are in play. Both players will have 100% chance to generate 5/6 gold on their first turns.

AnduinTryggva · July 2022

KefkaGestahl wrote: »

Yet I have had plenty of games where I see an armory in the opening draw and yet I'm stuck with four coins, practically guaranteeing the second person is able to buy it due to the extra gold.

The chance is usually only 25%.(depending on patrons).

Casdha · July 2022

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

The player who draws first has imho a fair advantage for winning a game which is not balanced by the 1 gold that the player who draws second gets automatically.

I seem to go first 90% of the time and I hate going first because:

A. I either get nothing because the card I want costs one more coin than I have/can generate and the 2nd player gets it
or
B. I pick up a card and a better card that can be afforded with 6 coins is grabbed by the one who goes 2nd.

I'll trade my going 1st for your 2nd anytime.

Sync01 · July 2022

I feel like it's not so much down to who goes first but what cards are available to pick up. Some of the cards are just op and whoever picks those up have a much higher chance of winning, especially if they snag them early.
Doesn't really matter how much gold you have if the rng isn't on your side

Heartrage · July 2022

Not really, while being able to buy a 6 gold card is one of the advantage for being second, being able to buy 3-4 gold cards and use the treasury is also a huge boost for playing second.

Vaoh · July 2022

I disagree. The beginning of the match doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things, so long as you are playing smartly. If the enemy is having good beginning game rng then you’re at least going to be getting some contract cards/Writs of gold and such. There’s always a way.

The only time the beginning of the match determines the whole outcome is if you have two competent players and one of them gets The Armory, Siege Weapon Volley, etc. Midnight Raid to an extent as well but in conjunction with a bit of extra good rng. The raw power generation wins the game assuming the player doesn’t majorly mess up. I’m pretty good at ToT now (easy top 10 leaderboard) and I’ve yet to lose a game where I acquired any of those heavy power generation cards early.

Tuonra2 · July 2022

The first player is always going to have a massive advantage, they get the best pick of 5 cards, and they are always at least equal in number of turns taken. This means turn 1 they get the best selection and in a close game they get the first chance to hit 80.

The balance of the starting coin is imo not enough, (I'd love to see 4 cards revealed for player 1 and then a 5th added for player 2) but it is what we have to work with.

I personally don't hate going 2nd anymore, the trick is to pick the right decks. what you want is cards that cost 6 and are good early with few cards that cost less than 6 and are aggressive. For example Blackfeather knave, Oathman, Relicmaster and Witch are early cards that cost 6 and give immediate value. Knave however is in crow and giving player 1 a toll of flesh or silver is pretty poor, but not damning. Witch is red eagle and while Midnight raid is a disaster to give to your opponent going first, it's not the main reason not to pick him, see to make this strat work we want 6 gold, so choosing a power starter patron is a no-go. Hlaalu and Celarus then clearly are the picks, yes they have cards like luxury exports and scrying orb which are good, but they are gold, not power, they are a slow, manageable advantage that you can counter with your early 6cost.

Aside from this plan, going 'eco' and using the treasury early is incredibly viable. The fastest reliable way to get to 7 gold for example is to transform a coin turn 1, transform a coin turn 2 and then have a harvest on the board to draw a coin. if you have a harvest on the board, this is a 66% chance to have 7 gold on your 3rd turn w/ the remaining 33% chance being 6.

If your opponent bought that toll of flesh, or customs seizure, or even prophecy, and thereby didn't get to convert their pelin starter into a writ, then they have no chance of hitting that 7 that early. It's these kinds of advantages that you have to play for as player 2, and soon enough you'll find rewards.

Oh and one last thing if you want rubidite: TURN YOUR POWER STARTER INTO GOLD. It cannot be stated enough, this alone has me beating 80% of players, no Kap :P

silver1surfer69 · July 2022

kinda agree.

It depends on luck too what is on offer. Still so much luck involved even when u are an expert...

silver1surfer69 · July 2022

Tuonra2 wrote: »

The first player is always going to have a massive advantage, they get the best pick of 5 cards, and they are always at least equal in number of turns taken. This means turn 1 they get the best selection and in a close game they get the first chance to hit 80.

The balance of the starting coin is imo not enough, (I'd love to see 4 cards revealed for player 1 and then a 5th added for player 2) but it is what we have to work with.

I personally don't hate going 2nd anymore, the trick is to pick the right decks. what you want is cards that cost 6 and are good early with few cards that cost less than 6 and are aggressive. For example Blackfeather knave, Oathman, Relicmaster and Witch are early cards that cost 6 and give immediate value. Knave however is in crow and giving player 1 a toll of flesh or silver is pretty poor, but not damning. Witch is red eagle and while Midnight raid is a disaster to give to your opponent going first, it's not the main reason not to pick him, see to make this strat work we want 6 gold, so choosing a power starter patron is a no-go. Hlaalu and Celarus then clearly are the picks, yes they have cards like luxury exports and scrying orb which are good, but they are gold, not power, they are a slow, manageable advantage that you can counter with your early 6cost.

Aside from this plan, going 'eco' and using the treasury early is incredibly viable. The fastest reliable way to get to 7 gold for example is to transform a coin turn 1, transform a coin turn 2 and then have a harvest on the board to draw a coin. if you have a harvest on the board, this is a 66% chance to have 7 gold on your 3rd turn w/ the remaining 33% chance being 6.

If your opponent bought that toll of flesh, or customs seizure, or even prophecy, and thereby didn't get to convert their pelin starter into a writ, then they have no chance of hitting that 7 that early. It's these kinds of advantages that you have to play for as player 2, and soon enough you'll find rewards.

Oh and one last thing if you want rubidite: TURN YOUR POWER STARTER INTO GOLD. It cannot be stated enough, this alone has me beating 80% of players, no Kap :P

Thx for the hints! I love your ideas for compensating 2nd player. I think they are great and should be considered and used as starting point for further working compensation out by zos. Not often i read such a long post in full, but u greatly rewarded me. Thx for the pro tip, never thought of it so far, but i will definitly use that!^^ Insightfull for thx.