Can Hiti's Proc SPC?

Darkstorne · August 2021

Thinking of a build for normal dungeon runs that will still buff my allies' weapon and spell damage through SPC, but also let me swap out some HOTs for damaging skills so I can contribute to DPS more. Hiti's seems like a fantastic HOT with good range that also makes stamina management a little easier for the tank, so all good there, but...

I know we have the rule of thumb "proc sets can't proc proc sets." With that in mind, is Hiti's HOT able to proc the SPC buff? Or is my dream dead?

YandereGirlfriend · August 2021

Yes, it will.

Darkstorne · August 2021

Awesome! Thanks

EF321 · August 2021

Darkstorne wrote: »

I know we have the rule of thumb "proc sets can't proc proc sets." With that in mind, is Hiti's HOT able to proc the SPC buff? Or is my dream dead?

There is absolutely no such rule. If it says overheal, it does not matter what the source is. Now, if it says "when you critically heal", like combat physician, procs can't crit and therefore won't work, but it is not a "procs can't proc procs", it is all in description of particular effect.

And on a side not, Hiti's is not a HOT, it is a series of direct heals.

Vevvev · August 2021

I use Hiti all the time because it does proc SPC! One time I was the only healer in a Maw of Lorkhaj trial and I used Hiti + Springs in order to keep SPC on the entire group when they split.

Sluggy · August 2021

EF321 wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

I know we have the rule of thumb "proc sets can't proc proc sets." With that in mind, is Hiti's HOT able to proc the SPC buff? Or is my dream dead?

There is absolutely no such rule. If it says overheal, it does not matter what the source is. Now, if it says "when you critically heal", like combat physician, procs can't crit and therefore won't work, but it is not a "procs can't proc procs", it is all in description of particular effect.

And on a side not, Hiti's is not a HOT, it is a series of direct heals.

There is definitely a rule and that exact phrase came from ZoS themselves. If this set is proccing that effect I'd say it's very likely a bug and it will be fixed eventually.

EF321 · August 2021

Sluggy wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

I know we have the rule of thumb "proc sets can't proc proc sets." With that in mind, is Hiti's HOT able to proc the SPC buff? Or is my dream dead?

There is absolutely no such rule. If it says overheal, it does not matter what the source is. Now, if it says "when you critically heal", like combat physician, procs can't crit and therefore won't work, but it is not a "procs can't proc procs", it is all in description of particular effect.

And on a side not, Hiti's is not a HOT, it is a series of direct heals.

There is definitely a rule and that exact phrase came from ZoS themselves. If this set is proccing that effect I'd say it's very likely a bug and it will be fixed eventually.

I can give you a good hundred of examples of procs procing procs. I can give you entire proc build that can kill a dummy all by itself after you do one light attack.

They all are working according to the way it is worded in tooltip and there is nothing wrong with them.

vesselwiththepestle · August 2021

"Yo dawg, we heard you didn't like procs so we made sure your procs can't proc more procs. The Champion Point passives Resilient and Critical Leech will now be considered "proc" abilities, meaning it can’t proc other proc abilities such as item sets."

This was introduced in 4.3.5 (Wrathstone / Update 21)

This might not work for all procs and may even be meant for damage dealing procs anyway, not healing.

EF321 wrote: »

I can give you a good hundred of examples of procs procing procs. I can give you entire proc build that can kill a dummy all by itself after you do one light attack.

Please give those examples in the Bug Reports section, then, as they obviously should not work that way. And be sure they actually proc each other. Sometimes a proc set which causes poison damage can proc the poison status effect, which works a dot and can proc other sets agains... I guess that can happen with fire damage and the burning dot, too.

EF321 · August 2021

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

"Yo dawg, we heard you didn't like procs so we made sure your procs can't proc more procs. The Champion Point passives Resilient and Critical Leech will now be considered "proc" abilities, meaning it can’t proc other proc abilities such as item sets."

This was introduced in 4.3.5 (Wrathstone / Update 21)

This might not work for all procs and may even be meant for damage dealing procs anyway, not healing.

EF321 wrote: »

I can give you a good hundred of examples of procs procing procs. I can give you entire proc build that can kill a dummy all by itself after you do one light attack.

Please give those examples in the Bug Reports section, then, as they obviously should not work that way. And be sure they actually proc each other. Sometimes a proc set which causes poison damage can proc the poison status effect, which works a dot and can proc other sets agains... I guess that can happen with fire damage and the burning dot, too.

Well then, they either did a pretty damn bad job making sure procs can't proc procs, or pretty good job with wording, clearly stating when procs can't trigger it, such as requiring ability or crit, and allowing it when no such conditions are present.

EF321 · August 2021

So since maintenance is going on, I went to PTS to test some things.

I am wearing winter's respite, prayer shawl, infernal guardian. I cast circle of protection that does no damage or heals, it triggers winter's respite, overhealing from winter's respite proc heal triggers prayer shawl's shield, this shield in turn triggers (well, 50% chance) infernal guardian. I was able to kill some wasps by casting ability that does no damage, but triggers proc, which triggers another proc, which triggers another proc...

And this is absolutely what I expected from reading proc conditions (never even used winter's respite before). If this would not work, now that would something to complain about.

Now, in contrast to infernal guardian, Trinimac's Valor has seemingly similar proc condition (shield), but requires an ability. And it does not proc from pray shawl/combat physician/iceheart/etc. So again, both are working as described.

Darkstorne · August 2021

EF321 wrote: »

So since maintenance is going on, I went to PTS to test some things.

I am wearing winter's respite, prayer shawl, infernal guardian. I cast circle of protection that does no damage or heals, it triggers winter's respite, overhealing from winter's respite proc heal triggers prayer shawl's shield, this shield in turn triggers (well, 50% chance) infernal guardian. I was able to kill some wasps by casting ability that does no damage, but triggers proc, which triggers another proc, which triggers another proc...

And this is absolutely what I expected from reading proc conditions (never even used winter's respite before). If this would not work, now that would something to complain about.

Now, in contrast to infernal guardian, Trinimac's Valor has seemingly similar proc condition (shield), but requires an ability. And it does not proc from pray shawl/combat physician/iceheart/etc. So again, both are working as described.

Hey, good finds! Confusing messaging has always been one of ESO's big issues. I hope they look at procs on a set by set basis if they want to change things though, because I think in a lot of cases they don't cause issues. It's often just a few crazy exploitable setups that make procs from procs look problematic. And Hiti's being able to proc SPC isn't an issue imo, but a strength of the mix and match set system.

Sluggy · August 2021

I'm pretty sure they implemented the 'no procing procs with other procs' way before Wrathstone but vesselwiththepestle quoted the most recent mention of that being enforced by tagging some non-set based stuff as procs too. If I had to take a guess, when they reconfigured things in preparation for Update 31's 'No Proc Cyrodiil' (or Low proc Cyrodiil, as I like to call it) they probably misclassified a lot of things. As it is, there are already a bunch of sets that shouldn't be working in the no-proc version of Cyrodiil on the PTS that actually DO work! There are many things in this game that are sadly, never explained. So while I get that'd you might expect some set-proced to proc other sets, that is definitely not what they intended (at least by their previous out-of-game comments).

And really it's for a good reason. It would be a bad idea to have a potential recursive or looping systems where people could indefinitely cause things to happen from a single event. Worst case scenario is a runaway, recursive cascade that brings to sever to it's knees before crashing it. But my guess is that they have some kind of sensible limiter in there to prevent such things. Really, I think they just want to limit how much the game plays itself for you.

On a side note: I just thought of how funny it would be to see zero enforcement of procing procs with procs! I can just imagine people building machines and computing devices using sets along with ally and enemy mechanics lol

YandereGirlfriend · August 2021

EF321 wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

I know we have the rule of thumb "proc sets can't proc proc sets." With that in mind, is Hiti's HOT able to proc the SPC buff? Or is my dream dead?

There is absolutely no such rule. If it says overheal, it does not matter what the source is. Now, if it says "when you critically heal", like combat physician, procs can't crit and therefore won't work, but it is not a "procs can't proc procs", it is all in description of particular effect.

And on a side not, Hiti's is not a HOT, it is a series of direct heals.

There is definitely a rule and that exact phrase came from ZoS themselves. If this set is proccing that effect I'd say it's very likely a bug and it will be fixed eventually.

I can give you a good hundred of examples of procs procing procs. I can give you entire proc build that can kill a dummy all by itself after you do one light attack.

They all are working according to the way it is worded in tooltip and there is nothing wrong with them.

Very much agree.

Sets triggering other set effects provides added depth to creating builds. IMO, the language that they use in set descriptions tells you basically everything that you need to know about a set since the conditions are very specific as are the definitions of terms such as "abilities." Certain set interactions are implicitly forbidden by, as you say, requiring Critical effects or other conditions that are not achievable by sets alone.

EF321 · August 2021

Sluggy wrote: »

And really it's for a good reason. It would be a bad idea to have a potential recursive or looping systems where people could indefinitely cause things to happen from a single event.

Such things are definitely possible, and been possible and been known and used by people for years.
For example. Syvarra + Pillar of Nirn + Sellistrix, all sets have a condition to proc on any damage, and do DOTs or delayed damage, therefore can trigger each other reliably. And this is what I would expect from reading descriptions.
It can kill precursor dummy all by itself (don't know about bigger ones, maybe last ticks align at some point, but I can go on for a very long time for sure), and sometimes can be hilarious to watch in big sieges in Cyrodiil, especially when attacking inner keep doors, where someone is just bound to catch some proc in a tightly packed space.

I've seen mentions of this exact combo years ago, it always worked and is still working, and there is no reason for them not to, since this behavior is in line with set tooltips.

Vildebill · August 2021

ZOS has stated on the forums a while back ago in a combat update thread that procs should not proc other procs, which they have fixed with a lot of sets and skills such as altar not procing Warden's minor toughness. So it's sure a bug if it's working.

YenYuan · July 2022

Sluggy wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

I'd say it's very likely a bug and it will be fixed eventually.

I don't think calling it a bug makes sense. They said that but it seems like it's more of a "direction" than a declaration on the working vs buggy mechanics of the game. There are many things that seem to work like this but it's also fair to say that they may all be changed in the future to align with ZOS' ideals for sets.