The map has been fixed - we hope ZOS sees this and takes inspiration

Danikat · July 2022

ADarklore wrote: »

I could see this being useful IF, and only IF, ZOS implemented it in-game. As it stands, this map may be correct LORE wise, but it is not correct ESO "game" wise. If they are never going to update their map, never going to use the regions that were expanded by this map, then IMO it's pointless for ESO in-game usage. Would look cool on the wall, but not so much functional for how the map matches the current in-game lore-faulty geography.

This is my thinking too. The lore is one of the main reason I like TES games and I think it can be fun to try to reconcile all the lore in a long-running series, so in that context this map is interesting to me. But my only priority for an in-game map is to show me where things are in the game, so I can find where I am and where I'm going and the second it doesn't do that it becomes utterly useless to me.

Which is probably (I hope) part of the reason ZOS hasn't done this - they couldn't just change the map, because that just leaves them with an inaccurate map that doesn't match the zones, they'd need to actually update the zones in the game as well and that's a lot more work.

I hope they do that one day (maybe gradually, as and when they add the missing bits of Tamriel in to the game), but it's the only way I could see it working. Just updating the image of the map so it doesn't reflect the game world would be useless. If that ever happens I'll be looking for an addon to provide a map that does match the actual zones.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

This is a game first, and a story second. Lore is tertiary.

Show me why these things must be mutually exclusive.

This isn't Super Mario Brothers. People love Elder Scrolls because of the lore. ZOS has a mandate to make the experience authentic- at least as much as gameplay must be good.

Fun fact: there are people who care about Mario lore as well. They just have to be more willing to accept inconsistencies, but trying to find ways to explain those (other than the easy but boring "the devs don't care") can be part of the fun.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · July 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Interesting, isn't it. The larger TES community has a very robust and vocal lore community. Yet despite its relative vitality, ESO has next to nothing. Maybe after 8 years of posts like the OP, across The Official Forums, Reddit and elsewhere, maybe the fact that the best response we get include things like "You know, its surprising how triggered everyone was that we missed that little bit of land between Northern and Southern Elsweyr.", maybe there's something in that.

ESO has a big lore community. The thing is that Elder Scrolls lore community don't seperate themselves into game categories- It's simply Elder Scrolls lore, such as Teslore on reddit.

cmetzger93 · July 2022

Any updates on the controller ui freezing the map? This small bug has rendered this unusable for me, hoping for a fix in v2!

Thal_J · July 2022

cmetzger93 wrote: »

Any updates on the controller ui freezing the map? This small bug has rendered this unusable for me, hoping for a fix in v2!

Hi, yes, this issue is something we are looking into and will be fixed in the next major version.

Vylaera · July 2022

HUGE update to comment today, will also be updating the top of the post alongside.

Put simply, I'm redrawing the map.

Put elaborately, there's many issues with my map that I was never happy with, but now that Thal has figured out ways to make the map easier to edit, decisions and oversights I made in earlier development can now be fixed. These oversights and decisions I made were based on the assumption that we might not be able to actually move anything on the map, and that we'd just have an aesthetic that wasn't necessarily functional in the way we'd hoped, and is now after many code breakthroughs and creative thinking from Thal and myself.

Now that Thal has designed a method to automatically move wayshrines and player markers, moving the locations of Zones is very easy, or at least easier than it was before. So, since we have the tech and know-how to move zones, the entire map is being redrawn and every zone is getting repositioned to match their lore-accurate positions according to the Anthology Map. The map will truly be an Accurate World Map.

Here are a few images demonstrating issues with the map previously. Many locations, borders, rivers, and shorelines did not match up with Anthology, the canon map, as I just kept where they were from the ESO map originally.

Black Marsh and the Niben did not align with the canon shape previously.

Vvardenfell, the Telvanni Peninsula, and the Sacred East did not align with the cnaon shape. Visible also is a peek at the planned Telvannis change to the TR shape, a more detailed and less phallic-looking shape.

The Strid River, the border between Cyrodiil and Valenwood, did not match up either, and the Gold Coast was smaller than it should be.

High Rock. Even with my lite changes, it still doesn't line up well.

All of these issues are being fixed in version 2, which will also come with much needed bug fixes and feature additions. Version 2 will also feature a larger crop to accommodate the Systres archipelago as to eliminate the need for the Eltheric Ocean map, which, even though a popular feature, was a secondary map I would need to keep updated, as well as make additional versions of when we start making new map styles. The Eltheric also bloated the file size which we need to keep small as ESO UI has a 100mb file size limit, and we still hadn't made planned aesthetic customization features. It was simply too cumbersome for development.

So without further ado, here's the current foundation I will be working off of to redraw the map.

And of course, a progress gif showing the vanilla map, the anthology map, the zones aligned to anthology, and my outline.

I'm very glad I can make these changes now because it makes not only for a higher quality product true to its name, but also because it's been bugging the heck out of me.

I will be able to reuse much of the work I've already done, so it shouldn't take too long to get this shipped out to you all. Simply a matter of getting the lines drawn, adding the borders, adding the zone glow, adding the ocean waves, finishing touches, and then getting everything to match up in game on the code side.

TaSheen · July 2022

That's so awesome, you guys! Can't wait!

Vylaera · July 2022

TaSheen wrote: »

That's so awesome, you guys! Can't wait!

Thank you!
__________________________________

I have the outline finished and can now begin turning it into a game map. Later.

danno8 · July 2022

Vylaera wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

That's so awesome, you guys! Can't wait!

Thank you!
__________________________________

I have the outline finished and can now begin turning it into a game map. Later.

Are you still planning on having the optional rivers be a toggle with the new map?

Thal_J · July 2022

danno8 wrote: »

Are you still planning on having the optional rivers be a toggle with the new map?

Yes, and province borders.

TheGreatBlackBear · July 2022

I can see a lot of (misplaced) passion for lore in this thread but ultimately lore serves the game and not the other way around.

Thal_J · July 2022

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I can see a lot of (misplaced) passion for lore in this thread but ultimately lore serves the game and not the other way around.

Elder Scrolls wouldn't be what it is without its lore, and most of ESO's playerbase plays for story. It's not misplaced to keep ZOS accountable for the world and IP they are borrowing from BGS, especially if they make mistakes that damage the worldbuilding.

Vylaera · July 2022

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I can see a lot of (misplaced) passion for lore in this thread but ultimately lore serves the game and not the other way around.

We're going to make a documentary of medieval Germany but we aren't going to reference any history books and we're going to use maps of France instead.
And that's ok as long as the cinematography is good because at the end of the day, the movie quality is what matters.
And by good we mean barely reaching industry standards and using 10 year old tech.

Is this acceptable if you were someone who was very interested in historically accurate medieval Germany? If not then how's is this any different from the situation with ESO?

Like Thal said, ES is an IP with lore and its own in-universe history and the games should seek to remain consistent with that lore while also delivering a good game. Neither lore integrity or game quality should be sacrificed, and ESO has no problem sacrificing lore integrity while also not delivering the greatest possible product.

Jusey1 · July 2022

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

We see that Shadowfen and Deeshan are touching ingame so that is what it is, what we see ingame should take pirority over outdated lore, this huge gap on your map is an immersion killer.

Then Ask ZOS to fix it and make a new zone that goes in between Dees and Shadowfen.

danno8 · July 2022

Jusey1 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

We see that Shadowfen and Deeshan are touching ingame so that is what it is, what we see ingame should take pirority over outdated lore, this huge gap on your map is an immersion killer.

Then Ask ZOS to fix it and make a new zone that goes in between Dees and Shadowfen.

And probably best not go over to FF14 any time soon. Their maps are the worst especially if you think a small gap between zones is immersion breaking.

eg...

Reverb · July 2022

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

We see that Shadowfen and Deeshan are touching ingame so that is what it is, what we see ingame should take pirority over outdated lore, this huge gap on your map is an immersion killer.

Perhaps an answer is that at the end of the current roads Zeni places a cart for transport to the next zone. This allows the map to be accurate, the immersion to remain intact, and future possibility of a wedge DLC zone between Deshaan and Shadowfen.

Supreme_Atromancer · July 2022

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I can see a lot of (misplaced) passion for lore in this thread but ultimately lore serves the game and not the other way around.

Wh... what aspect of game is served by a sloppy, incorrect map?

The proposition that quality lore and game are necessarily dichotomous is a bogus strawperson.

Freelancer_ESO · July 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I can see a lot of (misplaced) passion for lore in this thread but ultimately lore serves the game and not the other way around.

Wh... what aspect of game is served by a sloppy, incorrect map?

The proposition that quality lore and game are necessarily dichotomous is a bogus strawperson.

Frequently, it feels like ZOS is strapped for resources when it comes to fixing things in game.

If ZOS gets an infusion of cash, or runs out of space fixing this would be something to do.

If they don't, I'm not really sure this should be a major priority unless they can implement it in a relatively timely manner.

Story wise until they fix it, one can pretend the maps are a bit off because the people in universe are great at map making but they aren't perfect. (Most of the maps in history irl have worse/similar issues including some you've probably seen)

Staying accurate to an existing content as you add things to a world can be an absolute pain if you don't have people that are easily familiar with the information that you can quickly get feedback from and even then sometimes it can be a pain. Frequently, the people initially building content are just focused on what would work well for them in what they were making and not considering how it might impact future additions.

You also ram into the issue that many consumers don't really care that much about it. If you look at the worldbuilding for most successful franchises it's generally pretty bad.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · July 2022

SerasWhip wrote: »

It's how Eastmarch swallows Blacklight that bothers me the most. Like why on earth?

Maybe Blacklight is located south of Skuldafn.

Vylaera · July 2022

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

SerasWhip wrote: »

It's how Eastmarch swallows Blacklight that bothers me the most. Like why on earth?

Maybe Blacklight is located south of Skuldafn.

No, the map is just wrong. Not a very complicated issue.

They put Windhelm where Blacklight is supposed to go and then messed up the rest of Morrowind because of that mistake.

TaSheen · July 2022

@Vylaera - will the map 2.0 still depend on LibZone for showing character placement etc? It's still not updated, and being so far "off" when using a mini-map is jarring to me.

Vaoh · July 2022

Considering a huge portion of the ESO playerbase is here because of awesome TES lore/questing, this is a much bigger deal than a lot of people think.

Even when I started out in ESO I would still occasionally play other TES games, and I’d notice subtle strange map issues. It always bothered me, and coming over to this thread to see the accurate map visualization of Tamriel vs ESO’s map is eye-opening.

Thal_J · July 2022

TaSheen wrote: »

@Vylaera - will the map 2.0 still depend on LibZone for showing character placement etc? It's still not updated, and being so far "off" when using a mini-map is jarring to me.

The author still hasn't updated it, nothing we can do except wait. I have been working with him since mid June but the player position feature relies on the updated version to work, so /shrug

TaSheen · July 2022

@Thal_J - for now, I'm just dealing with it. I was just wondering if that dependency will continue with the coming changes Vylaera discussed.

I check every couple of days for update - not wanting to push the author.

Thal_J · July 2022

@TaSheen fingers crossed that it will be ready by the time 2.0 is released, i spoke with the author just now and he's busy with life stuff right now so doesn't want to be pressured to update (which is fair enough)

TaSheen · July 2022

Thal_J wrote: »

@TaSheen fingers crossed that it will be ready by the time 2.0 is released, i spoke with the author just now and he's busy with life stuff right now so doesn't want to be pressured to update (which is fair enough)

Well, yes - which is why I haven't posted a comment there. So let's hope!

Supreme_Atromancer · July 2022

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I can see a lot of (misplaced) passion for lore in this thread but ultimately lore serves the game and not the other way around.

Wh... what aspect of game is served by a sloppy, incorrect map?

The proposition that quality lore and game are necessarily dichotomous is a bogus strawperson.

Frequently, it feels like ZOS is strapped for resources when it comes to fixing things in game.

If ZOS gets an infusion of cash, or runs out of space fixing this would be something to do.

If they don't, I'm not really sure this should be a major priority unless they can implement it in a relatively timely manner.

Story wise until they fix it, one can pretend the maps are a bit off because the people in universe are great at map making but they aren't perfect. (Most of the maps in history irl have worse/similar issues including some you've probably seen)

Staying accurate to an existing content as you add things to a world can be an absolute pain if you don't have people that are easily familiar with the information that you can quickly get feedback from and even then sometimes it can be a pain. Frequently, the people initially building content are just focused on what would work well for them in what they were making and not considering how it might impact future additions.

You also ram into the issue that many consumers don't really care that much about it. If you look at the worldbuilding for most successful franchises it's generally pretty bad.

Good response.

I think most people aren't demanding they do it immediately, just that it be on their radar at all. I think we'd be pretty happy to know that they hope to get around to it one day, because it would show intention. My empathy is with them- I imagine the workload is both huge and never-ending, and I would agree that there are certainly other things that should take precedence.

Even knowing that they work- internally- on a more lore-consistent map in order to develop a more lore-consistent world space would go a long way but- in terms of hot-button lore topics- there's traditionally been very poor engagement with the lore community. We've been talking about the map, for instance, since 2014, with no substantive response about the actual issue. And for the record, employing narrative after-the-fact to retcon genuine mistakes or carelessness misses the point and cheapens the lore because we see that its not used for verisimilitude and great story-telling, but a device to ham-fist sloppy work.

I don't know how much I agree with the contention that people just don't care. I think exploration and lore are pretty much the Elder Scrolls appeal, and a big part of those things are cohesiveness, immersiveness, and attention to detail. Those are the things about the SPTs that people talk about. And, as much as I love ESO, I frankly don't believe there was a market for another MMO back in 2014 except people wanted Elder Scrolls. For all the debates about classes and balance and weaving- none of that matters a crap in the grand scheme of things.

And even with the IP, the game failed after launch. The subscription model failed. ZOS shed a bunch of people in control and they had to get financial support to redo it from the ground up. Why? Because no one cared about light attack weaving and role diversity and all the stuff the forums will make you think are important to literally everybody. It didn't matter because *It wasn't Elder Scrolls*.

And that's why I'd be looking at what *is*. What that experience means. And why I wouldn't be ready to make broad, sweeping assumptions about what consumers want. And that's why, again, with empathy, and being fully aware of the fact I'm sitting here in my proverbial basement saying whatever- that yes, there probably ARE challenges working with a future-focussed scheme when you might not have the immediate access to the lore or the team you need to, but that because its important to us, it might be important to address that. That's what this feedback reflects. Remember back in 2013 and '14 when people were apprehensive about how the lore everyone cared about would be handled by ZOS and they reassured everyone by calling out that they had a Lore Master who was going to keep in close touch with Bethesda? Well its still important and the system clearly needs some work.

Vylaera · July 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Because no one cared about light attack weaving and role diversity and all the stuff the forums will make you think are important to literally everybody.

I am upset about the u35 changes just to say that. But otherwise, good post.

However I would like to shed a little light on some communication Thal and myself had with a UI developer from ZOS. I won't name any names but this dev was in an ESOUI channel talking about addons and code and functions and stuff I don't understand (Thal was there, not me), and Thal brought our addon to his attention and asked if he or the teams at ZOS were aware of the issues with the map. The dev said he could submit a ticket to send to the team to discuss inconsistencies with the map. This was what he said

So here's what I can do... I will write up a ticket, citing your addon, with a description along the lines of, "Discuss the inconsistency aspect re: actual world positions aligning with map positions." ...if my main takeaway from what you have done here is correct? I am doubtful that Worldbuilding will consider redoing the design of the zones, POI positions, etc., but maybe there are improvements on the tech side that can be made? I need to look more deeply into what you've done here.

We had our hopes up. However, the ticket was not submitted and a superior stepped into to give us some more details. I'll quote the responses given:

The current limitations of the Tamriel map layout are well known and discussed internally. This is not new information. At this time there is no plan or desire to change it. But yes we're aware of it. Always have been. The UI team does not have the authority to move things like that. We create the tech the world builders use. This would be something you'd need to discuss in the regular forums. UI can't do this.

Thal responded with

can you not put in a ticket to the relevant team (i dont know how the internals work)

and the response back was

It wouldn't be appropriate. The best we can do is mention to them that you mentioned the inconsistency. But it's not really a "bug" or a "ticket"

This was the decision they made, and it's their decision to make, not up to UI

If we open a ticket, they will close the ticket as working as designed, and then tell us not to do that

So my takeaway with this is two major things, one puts me at ease, the other does the opposite.
The teams know the map has issues and discuss these issues. This leads me to believe that the teams plan out content as to not lock-in major issues with the map and damaging the world as a result.
However, there are no plans to change the map so that it is correct in game. That job is left to us to continue to do. The reason this makes me a little uneasy is that if ZOS runs out of space to make accurate content, they may begin making inaccurate content and damage the world as a result. Or perhaps the teams may accidentally or inadvertently create content that is incorrect because of their in-house map and heightmap they use to plan out and design zones being wrong.

As proof of this, take Varlaisvea ruins as an example. This player home/Ayleid ruin is located right where the major city of Rihad should be.

Mistakes like these may persist despite the devs being aware of the map's issues. And this is unfortunate and could be prevented if they had a correct map to base the content development and planning on. This is one small example for why it is imperative the map be fixed.

With my new overhaul, I can see that nearly every bit of Tamriel on the ESO map is incorrect. I can retrofit new content onto my fixed map, but all new content will be slightly wrong in one way or another. Once my overhaul is further along in development I can begin showing the major issues with ESO's map and highlighting all of its abundant mistakes, but I will need more time to create it, so I'll save that for a later post. If someone with authority at ZOS would like to reach out to discuss the map issues and the best approach to fixing the map, then I am open and will always be open to a dialogue.

Thal_J · July 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

I think most people aren't demanding they do it immediately, just that it be on their radar at all. I think we'd be pretty happy to know that they hope to get around to it one day, because it would show intention. My empathy is with them- I imagine the workload is both huge and never-ending, and I would agree that there are certainly other things that should take precedence.

Even knowing that they work- internally- on a more lore-consistent map in order to develop a more lore-consistent world space would go a long way but- in terms of hot-button lore topics- there's traditionally been very poor engagement with the lore community. We've been talking about the map, for instance, since 2014, with no substantive response about the actual issue.

Ok, with this being said, probably time to come out with some stuff we should have mentioned a while back.

So as Vyl aluded to several comments ago, I was able to have a discussion with two people from ZOS, from ESO's UI team, about the map.

I explained the issues clearly, I showed our addon and how we fixed it, and I mentioned that with the current map they are actively losing out on DLC space (because there's no room). I also mentioned that I do not expect them to crunch and fix everything immediately just because one guy who made an addon told them so - that would be stupid.

I'm passionate about the game and I didn't want them to just drop everything to fix the map (even if it's been an issue approaching a decade now). I just wanted to let them know that there is a problem, and that the lore community has been telling them about it for 8 years on the forums.

I'm going to show some anonymised quotes because I don't want anyone to get harrassed, but I think it's important to let everyone know.

Initally, things seemed hopeful, with one saying that they hadn't seen the addon before, and that it was impressive. "nice work". They offered to put in a ticket to the worldbuilding teams, noting the inconsistencies - with the caveat that the worldbuilding teams would be unlikely to fix what they've already done. That's fine, at least worldbuilding could be informed going forward, and we could finally get some recognition on this issue!

So here's what I can do... I will write up a ticket, citing your addon, with a description along the lines of, "Discuss the inconsistency aspect re: actual world positions aligning with map positions." ...if my main takeaway from what you have done here is correct? I am doubtful that Worldbuilding will consider redoing the design of the zones, POI positions, etc., but maybe there are improvements on the tech side that can be made? I need to look more deeply into what you've done here.

- UI Developer

But then the main UI lead for ESO commented, saying that if they made a ticket for lore/map consistencies, that it would get shut down for not being relevant:

It wouldn't be appropriate. The best we can do is mention to them that you mentioned the inconsistency. But it's not really a "bug" or a "ticket".

If we open a ticket, they will close the ticket as working as designed, and then tell us not to do that.

- UI Lead

After pushing a bit more on moving the zones to their correct positions, I got this comment:

The UI team does not have the authority to move things like that. We create the tech the world builders use. This would be something you'd need to discuss in the regular forums. UI can't do this. This was the decision they made, and it's their decision to make, not up to UI.

The current limitations of the Tamriel map layout are well known and discussed internally. This is not new information. At this time there is no plan or desire to change it. But yes we're aware of it. Always have been.

- UI Lead

What I gleaned from this, first and foremost, is that the UI team (who I spoke to) are NOT responsible for the map, they do work on it, but they are ultimately not the ones deciding where the zones go and how the map looks. What the above tells me is that the ones that are responsible (the worldbuilding teams) are well aware that their map is wrong - they just don't care enough to fix it. They are the ones actively making the decision to not fix the map. There is no plan or desire whatsoever to fix the map.

The comment the UI lead said about making threads on the forums about this issue stuck out to me in particular, because the lore community HAS been making threads about this very issue. For 8 years! Clearly the message isn't getting to the people that matter (or they do, and they just don't care, which bothers me more). At least now we have a comment from a second ZOS employee (other than Schick in that one interview) admitting that the map is wrong.

If there is any hope of getting this issue officially fixed by ZOS, it would have to come from within the worldbuilding teams, or we would have to cause enough ruckus to make the worldbuilding teams care, and given how little regard they've given the lore community in the past I am not sure that's going to happen.

Edit: lol, accidentally posted this at the same time as Vyl (had no idea)

Vylaera · July 2022

LMFAO NO WAY
Thal and I wrote the same comment at the same time that's hilarious

Supreme_Atromancer · July 2022

The quotes are very interesting. I don't want to write the devs off as not caring; if they're discussing it, they must think its discussion-worthy. But its not at all surprising that this is the conclusion people are coming to.