Spellcrafting vs Third Morphs

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

A while ago I brought up this discussion and in conclusion I and most of the community agreed that if either were to happen, third morphs would be the better choice for balance reason.

However, after thinking about it I believe that Spellcrafting is the way forward. I would like to explain why I changed my mind on this.

The biggest reason is variety. Third morphs would simply be the same skill offering a different perk and if we’re very lucky, a palette swap. Beyond this, nothing will really change and builds will still feel the same across the board.
Yes, balance would be easier to manage this true, but balancing Spellcrafting wouldn’t be a nightmare as some have argued. Harder yes, but hardly impossible. To make it work I believe that there would be base templates that can be modified with a damage type and offer one buff or debuff. The base damage numbers or heal numbers would essentially remain the same on the original template.

This is an example of what could be:

Base: Mist Cloud

Apply a mist cloud in an area for 10 seconds that deals 90 Damage every second.

Now, you would not be able to use this skill until you applied essences to it. You could apply a maximum of 2 essences to it in order to craft the spell. But 1 would also work.

Example:

Essence of Winter: Makes crafted Spell deal Frost Damage.

Applying this single essence would change our base template into a useable spell scroll that can be consumed and learned.

Chilling Mist:

Apply a chilling mist in an area for 10 seconds that deals 90 Frost Damage every second.

However, the option to apply a second essence would be possible, but you would not be able to apply two identical essences. A second essence may look something like this:

Essence of Lethargy: Applies a snare effect to crafted spell.

Essence of Power: Increases the damage of crafted spell.

So if we took our base spell in the above example:

Base: Mist Cloud Template
Essences: Essence if Winter + Essence of Power

Empowered Chilling Mist:

Apply a chilling mist in an area for 10 seconds that deals 120 Damage every second.

Or

Base: Mist Cloud
Essences: Essence of Winter + Essence of Lethargy.

Chilling Mist of Lethargy:

Apply a mist cloud in an area for 10 seconds that deals 90 Damage every second and snares enemies in its area by 30%.

Thus you have choices to make and each has pros and cons.

Here is an example of essences that could exist:

Primary Essences:

Arcane Essence - Magic Damage
Essence of Winter - Frost Damage
Infernal Essence - Fire Damage
Essence of Lightning - Shock Damage
Essence of Iron - Physical Damage
Haemorrhaging Essence - Bleed Damage
Venomous Essence - Poison Damage
Putrefying Essence - Disease Damage

Secondary Essences:

Essence of Power - Increased Damage
Enduring Essence - Increased Duration
Essence of Lethargy - Adds Snare
Defiling Essence - Adds Minor Defile
Essence of Weakness - Adds Minor Maim
Death Essence - Adds Execute Modifier

Not all buffs and debuffs would be available to avoid making other skills obsolete. Also, certain essences would not be compatible with certain templates.
In the above example, Essence of Iron would not work with the Mist base. However, the Haemorrhaging Essence would change it into a Blood Mist.

This is why I feel Spellcrafting is better than third morphs, as it offers more creative freedom, would not be too hard to balance and could also be tied to a quest giving us something to do.

ESO_Nightingale · July 2022

Yeah i think spellcrafting is better for various reasons. It's a huge selling point for a chapter, will be easier to balance because adding a 3rd morph for that many skill lines really isn't feasible. That is an outstanding amount of work. Not to say spellcrafting isn't, because it is but because of the reasons above, it's also better for individual choice since you can make it how you want. And they could also base the system off of the existing enchanting crafting system too. The individual components to craft the skill can be put all around the world too, increasing reward variety and therefore adding to exploration. It could also interact with other systems like antiquities.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Yeah i think spellcrafting is better for various reasons. It's a huge selling point for a chapter, will be easier to balance because adding a 3rd morph for that many skill lines really isn't feasible. That is an outstanding amount of work. Not to say spellcrafting isn't, because it is but because of the reasons above, it's also better for individual choice since you can make it how you want. And they could also base the system off of the existing enchanting crafting system too. The individual components to craft the skill can be put all around the world too, increasing reward variety and therefore adding to exploration. It could also interact with other systems like antiquities.

The templates could be found through daily quests. And there would need to be too many due to the essences adding a lot of variety.

This could be some of the spell bases:

Mist: AoE ground DoT

Agony: Single Target Ranged DoT

Summoning: Pet that changes type dependant on primary essence.

Blades: Cone AoE direct damage.

Now even if it was just these four bases. Already you have plethora of options available.

Obviously there would have to be restriction, like you could not save more than one pet base in your skill line, or more than one spell with Death Essence saved.

The scrolls on consumption would take up a slot in the skill line. Once your skill line is filled, any further consumed scrolls would require you to replace one of your current skills in the skill line. But the line itself would work like any other being able to slot which ever one’s you wanted. Passives would be generic and focused on the line itself, reduced cost etc.

ESO_Nightingale · July 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Yeah i think spellcrafting is better for various reasons. It's a huge selling point for a chapter, will be easier to balance because adding a 3rd morph for that many skill lines really isn't feasible. That is an outstanding amount of work. Not to say spellcrafting isn't, because it is but because of the reasons above, it's also better for individual choice since you can make it how you want. And they could also base the system off of the existing enchanting crafting system too. The individual components to craft the skill can be put all around the world too, increasing reward variety and therefore adding to exploration. It could also interact with other systems like antiquities.

The templates could be found through daily quests. And there would need to be too many due to the essences adding a lot of variety.

This could be some of the spell bases:

Mist: AoE ground DoT

Agony: Single Target Ranged DoT

Summoning: Pet that changes type dependant on primary essence.

Blades: Cone AoE direct damage.

Now even if it was just these four bases. Already you have plethora of options available.

Obviously there would have to be restriction, like you could not save more than one pet base in your skill line, or more than one spell with Death Essence saved.

The scrolls on consumption would take up a slot in the skill line. Once your skill line is filled, any further consumed scrolls would require you to replace one of your current skills in the skill line. But the line itself would work like any other being able to slot which ever one’s you wanted. Passives would be generic and focused on the line itself, reduced cost etc.

I'd love to be able to summon an ice atronach. Would probably be balanced if it was made to be like skeletal archer. 1 bar slot, 16 seconds or so duration. But ice atros are melee. So would need that kind of ai.

WinterHeart626 · July 2022

I wouldn’t have them replace an existing skill, just allow them to remain, otherwise you have obtainable things that just sit in bank, keep the 1 of caveat for the bars though.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I wouldn’t have them replace an existing skill, just allow them to remain, otherwise you have obtainable things that just sit in bank, keep the 1 of caveat for the bars though.

How would they remain? Skill lines have 5 skills available to choose from discounting morphs. With the amount of options potentially available you would have basically the equivalent of the style sticker book but for spells. That would be silly and also destroy the possibility of a continuing market in trade and crafting.

By limiting it to 5 skill slots but allowing the option to overwrite current skills with new scrolls, you keep the menu at a reasonable size and also keep the trade and crafting scene of the skill line active.

IZZEFlameLash · July 2022

Can you imagine? Spell crafting becomes real and everyone reacts the way they are doing with Oakensoul right now... It will get useless pretty quick.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

Ice Atro is an option but I was thinking Ice Wraith. Both would work. Also, I feel that in order for spell crafting to work, you would have to not allow the option to craft main DPS, Heal or Taunt abilities. Also, not allow the crafting of Ultimates. These should remain separate from a Spellcrafting line in my opinion.

Vaoh · July 2022

Third morphs would be amazing for the game without any risk. Spellcrafting would be questionable and includes a lot of risk. Not saying Spellcrafting is bad but that the game is not ready for it atm.

Imo, third morphs absolutely should happen. It opens up the path to all sorts of new playstyles.

Ex.
- Frost Mage Warden, through Animal Companions frost-themed morphs
- Wind Mage Sorc, through Storm Calling wind-themed morphs
- Bringing back the Dragonknight *original* Inferno ability via a morph of Inferno
- Bringing back the Scorched Earth volley morph
- Adding a single element morph version of Force Shock

Just to name a few possibilities.

Mr_Madness · July 2022

I'll be down with spell crafting if I can keep the visuals I like.

Example keep Magicka Necromancer visuals when picking poison/physical version

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

Vaoh wrote: »

Third morphs would be amazing for the game without any risk. Spellcrafting would be questionable and includes a lot of risk. Not saying Spellcrafting is bad but that the game is not ready for it atm.

Imo, third morphs absolutely should happen. It opens up the path to all sorts of new playstyles.

Ex.
- Frost Mage Warden, through Animal Companions frost-themed morphs
- Wind Mage Sorc, through Storm Calling wind-themed morphs
- Bringing back the Dragonknight *original* Inferno ability via a morph of Inferno
- Bringing back the Scorched Earth volley morph
- Adding a single element morph version of Force Shock

Just to name a few possibilities.

Appreciate the opinion. Another reason I would choose Spellcrafting is that increases the options for players that wish to build outside of their class.

Foto1 · July 2022

neither will ever happen

ESO_Nightingale · July 2022

Foto1 wrote: »

neither will ever happen

I don't think spellcrafting is impossible. but 3rd morphs seems too far-fetched.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

Third Morphs would require more work for very little pay off. Spellcrafting would be less work and could be tied to a DLC this there is a greater incentive for both players and ZoS.

WinterHeart626 · July 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I wouldn’t have them replace an existing skill, just allow them to remain, otherwise you have obtainable things that just sit in bank, keep the 1 of caveat for the bars though.

How would they remain? Skill lines have 5 skills available to choose from discounting morphs. With the amount of options potentially available you would have basically the equivalent of the style sticker book but for spells. That would be silly and also destroy the possibility of a continuing market in trade and crafting.

By limiting it to 5 skill slots but allowing the option to overwrite current skills with new scrolls, you keep the menu at a reasonable size and also keep the trade and crafting scene of the skill line active.

They don’t need to make 50 different skills to collect, and then modify as you see fit.
They can make 5 base skills that can be modified, or even make one extra skill per skill line that can be customised plus 5 base skills for a “spell crafting” skill line.
I’m saying that overriding existing ones with new ones can get very tiresome very quickly due to meta shifts etc.
Once the skills obtained, it should be useable by the character that obtained it, even with skill resets/ armoury switches, if they’re going to do overwrites, and it IS stickerbook fare, then you essentially should be able to work that stickerbook into a “spell book” that allows you to select and modify the ones you currently have collected, so as to stop hamsterwheels of grab thing, learn thing, delete and override because no longer meta, oh damn, it’s meta again, go collect and do the hamster dance.

mocap · July 2022

instead of third morph or spellcrafting they could remake base skills. Not necessarily all at once, gradually.

For example:
Impulse (base skill)
Release a surge of elemental energy every 1 second, dealing X Magic Damage to all enemies within X meters (like sorc's Lightning Form). Obvioulsy the damage must be way lower than original skill.

Elemental Ring (morph 1)
Same as now, range single cast

Pulsar (morph 2)
Same as now, melee single cast + Minor Mangle

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I wouldn’t have them replace an existing skill, just allow them to remain, otherwise you have obtainable things that just sit in bank, keep the 1 of caveat for the bars though.

How would they remain? Skill lines have 5 skills available to choose from discounting morphs. With the amount of options potentially available you would have basically the equivalent of the style sticker book but for spells. That would be silly and also destroy the possibility of a continuing market in trade and crafting.

By limiting it to 5 skill slots but allowing the option to overwrite current skills with new scrolls, you keep the menu at a reasonable size and also keep the trade and crafting scene of the skill line active.

They don’t need to make 50 different skills to collect, and then modify as you see fit.
They can make 5 base skills that can be modified, or even make one extra skill per skill line that can be customised plus 5 base skills for a “spell crafting” skill line.
I’m saying that overriding existing ones with new ones can get very tiresome very quickly due to meta shifts etc.
Once the skills obtained, it should be useable by the character that obtained it, even with skill resets/ armoury switches, if they’re going to do overwrites, and it IS stickerbook fare, then you essentially should be able to work that stickerbook into a “spell book” that allows you to select and modify the ones you currently have collected, so as to stop hamsterwheels of grab thing, learn thing, delete and override because no longer meta, oh damn, it’s meta again, go collect and do the hamster dance.

So how would the market remain active? Once you finish there would be no reason to craft more or buy more. It would be dead market, this the whole ‘craft’ theme goes out of the window. The whole idea is that you can craft and sell spells, as well as use the ones you want. Your idea for 5 base spells could work, but then the option for selling and buying would get disregarded as well as any materials. Since these materials would be obsolete once you finished crafting everything that could be crafted.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

An alternative method of having Spellcrafting is to remove customisation altogether, and simply have it function as finding lost spell pages or scratching as part of a quest line. The spells themselves would be static with morphs of said skills requiring further pages to be found. Crafting the spells itself would only be possible after finding the pages and gathering the required materials. In fact, a good idea for materials would be the enemy materials that sell for gold. This way you could have it work like any other skill line. 5 base and one ultimate to be found.

WinterHeart626 · July 2022

The market remains active the same way it’s been remaining active with research traits and materials.
I haven’t overlooked the “marketable” prospects of this at all, in fact, as you yourself stated, these would be drops, akin to leads/ items.
So there’s two ways these can potentially go.
They’re either
- bound to account due to being found via a lead, ergo scrying.
- Able to be bought and sold due to being an item drop, ergo a book.
It’s also the same for weapons, crafting materials etc.
There’s almost always a market for these things, and the market for skills that can be customised, most certainly won’t diminish, especially since people would be kitting out numerous characters with them.

WinterHeart626 · July 2022

Just thought of this as well,
This ties into marketing these things.
Grades. Crafting spells will have available slots for modification.
So, rarity grades.
Green- one slot.
Blue- 2 slots.
Purple (max) 3 slots.
Rarity grade materials for slotting as well, can’t slot green into purple or blue etc.

So we then have a pyramid of skills.
Perchance 15 green, 10 blue, 5 purple, with purple being ultimates.

Now, where would these drop, or be able to be obtained. Marketing would dictate that they can’t be found here there and everywhere now would they?
So, let’s put the green ones as veteran dungeon rewards.
Green and blue in normal trials.
Green, blue, purple in the veteran trials.

Again, same chance of a drop rate as any other rare thing.

So, now you’ve got a set list of ways to obtain these, where they can be obtained, and, now, a way to market these, as well as make them harder to obtain.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

Just thought of this as well,
This ties into marketing these things.
Grades. Crafting spells will have available slots for modification.
So, rarity grades.
Green- one slot.
Blue- 2 slots.
Purple (max) 3 slots.
Rarity grade materials for slotting as well, can’t slot green into purple or blue etc.

So we then have a pyramid of skills.
Perchance 15 green, 10 blue, 5 purple, with purple being ultimates.

Now, where would these drop, or be able to be obtained. Marketing would dictate that they can’t be found here there and everywhere now would they?
So, let’s put the green ones as veteran dungeon rewards.
Green and blue in normal trials.
Green, blue, purple in the veteran trials.

Again, same chance of a drop rate as any other rare thing.

So, now you’ve got a set list of ways to obtain these, where they can be obtained, and, now, a way to market these, as well as make them harder to obtain.

I would stay away from required drops on a skill line from Vet Trials or even Vet content. Personally, I would have mats drop from World Bosses and Imperial City Bosses. Bring people back to older content and give people a reason to travel around the world.
As for the 'pages or slabs' I would have them work like a treasure hunt style thing, but not like a map or a poem that clues a location. Something, different.

Maybe, no system to find them at all. They are just placed in specific locations in the world and players just have to simply find them and share locations with community. Could be exciting if you find a page lying around that no-one has found yet. Like a community driven treasure hunt.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Can you imagine? Spell crafting becomes real and everyone reacts the way they are doing with Oakensoul right now... It will get useless pretty quick.

Not if you restrict what buffs and types of spells that can be crafted. Personally , I would say no to Ultimates (maybe 1). No Major Buffs or Debuffs. No skills in crafting would deal more damage or healing than comparative skills elsewhere. No Taunt skills.

That leaves still a lot of options and damage types that could be crafted.

Also, I actually think that customization should not be allowed either. I think it better if its more of a 'Spell Searching; quest that involves you finding the lost page, learning what mats are needed to research the spell and then finally craft the finished product.

Maybe, it should work like a sticker book in retrospect but a lot smaller. Say 30 spells total, but very well hidden in the world.

WinterHeart626 · July 2022

I’m actually with you on that last one, make the skills a wee bit of a gimmick, useable, but not overpowering, nor allowing them to exceed any one original skill.

Ergo, aforementioned post by myself on quality (yes I agree the materials shouldn’t be hidden in vet content, only the skills themselves, or maybe only the purples, I dunno).

I’ll “craft” an example that could be fun.
So, Base Skill- an AoE that’s centred on the character, kinda like PULSAR.
Let’s modify it.
- invigorating (heals players inside it’s burst, over 12 seconds, scales at 1/2 your weapon/ spell damage.
- Grants minor whatever for 4 seconds

It’s not overpowered, but it certainly could go in a healer toolkit.

Let’s flip it.
-elemental modification: deals X where X is 1/2 your weapon and spell damage.
- extended duration X: now becomes a timed Dots AoE, lasts 6 seconds.