The map has been fixed - we hope ZOS sees this and takes inspiration

Ratzkifal · June 2022

Tandor wrote: »

Vylaera wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

We see that Shadowfen and Deeshan are touching ingame so that is what it is, what we see ingame should take pirority over outdated lore, this huge gap on your map is an immersion killer.

What's in-game is wrong. Very simple.

That's as may be, but in my view pursuing compatibility with the original lore whilst admirable in itself doesn't make a lot of sense if it ends up not representing what's actually in the game.

ZOS keeps changing old zones all the time to add new houses that weren't there before too. Changing what we can currently see in the game doesn't take that much more effort - it simply doesn't pay for them the way houses do.

umagon · June 2022

I really like this addon, I like the fact the islands are even accounted for and there is line detail of the zones even when zoomed out. There is so much attention to even the smallest of details. ZOS should be taking notes; this how a map is properly done.

My only suggestion is to consider adding an option to overlay the names of the regions the map in grey scale; so players can see the name of the zones without mousing over it. If that is possible.

Vylaera · June 2022

umagon wrote: »

I really like this addon, I like the fact the islands are even accounted for and there is line detail of the zones even when zoomed out. There is so much attention to even the smallest of details. ZOS should be taking notes; this how a map is properly done.

My only suggestion is to consider adding an option to overlay the names of the regions the map in grey scale; so players can see the name of the zones without mousing over it. If that is possible.

One of the things we're looking to do in the future are different map styles. Currently we have one map style, vanilla, but we'd like to add more. One such style would be a regular paper map without the gameified glow around the zones or baked-in satellite imaging of the zone maps, and rather just have them faintly outlined in muted red dashed lines with the names of each zone or region written in cursive. Basically the style of the Anthology map but with ESO zones on them in the color palette of ESO's map rather than the pinkish tan the Anthology is.

Aka_ · June 2022

This is, without a doubt, my absolute favorite add-on ever added to ESO. I love maps and ALWAYS wanted something like this. You've delivered beautifully and I hope your work is recognized. Chef's kiss!

Thal_J · June 2022

phantasmalD wrote: »

Isn't Arnesia an argonian city on the east coast, somewhere between Thorn and Archon? At least that's what the only book (Pocket Guide to the Empire - 3rd Edition) that I could find that ever references it claims. [..]
Is Morrowind-Arnesia some kind of fanon that Tamriel Rebuilt came up? Because the only official references to it on UESP and Imperial Library are the upper mentioned Pocket Guide, the Arnesian War and the phrase 'Orphan of Arnesia'. Non of which call it a region of Morrowind.
I think you might be mixing fanon into your hardcore-canon add-on.

Just saw this now, to be honest I don't actually know what that region is called in official lore other than "southern swamps", and I am a Tamriel Rebuilt fan, so yes, that term may or may not be fanon. That doesn't mean that that area doesn't exist in canon though you can see it on all previous existing maps of Tamriel, it speaks for itself. The map's lore accuracy still remains regardless of if the term I used to refer to that area is fanon or not.

Mascen · June 2022

Vylaera wrote: »

Mascen wrote: »

Also since you're clearly well versed in the lore, any chance I could get your two cents on a chapter proposal? I'd need to make a proper thread of course but the short gist of it is a second akaviri invasion set on the Telvanni Peninsula.

I think the Akaviri would know better than to go busting down the Telvanni wizard lords' doors, especially after Vivec mopped the floor with them in Stonefalls. Divayth Fyr is exceptional but the Telvanni councilors are all very powerful mages that, if unified, could very easily destroy any invading force.

Well we dont know if the Akaviri are aware of the Telvanni per se. AFAIK they went through Redoran territory before they were cut down and drowned at Vivec's Antlers where the Dunmer troops were Tribunal so most likely Indoril.

Point is the Akaviri armada returned to Akavir after Vivecs Antlers so all those experienced ships and sailors could form the basis of a third invasion scenario.

Returning to the bigger picture though, the whole invasion theme would tie directly into the main gameplay addition through what others have referred to as "Competive PVE modes". Two 4 player teams would compete against each other in a variety of mission types such as wave defense, infiltration/exfiltration heist, and classic dungeon style assault. Extra enemies and other impediments could be sent to hamper the opposing team and scores would be judged on criteria such as time, kills, deaths, etc.

Meanwhile in regards to fashion, ZOS could expand beyond the stereotypical japanese elements in Akaviri armor. For example, the Tang Mo monkeyfolk could draw elements from Three Kingdoms/Tang dynasty China and the Kamali from Mongolian and steppe tribes. Naturally this would also extend into furniture and housing.

Mascen · June 2022

@Vylaera

Also yeah theres a career tab at the bottom of the page here. At a quick glance theres a slew of openings mostly for technical stuff like animation and programming, but theres also a general application at the bottom, so maybe take a peek to see if you fit the criteria for any of the openings or just fill out a general application. You got nothing to lose by trying.

kaushad · June 2022

phantasmalD wrote: »

Isn't Arnesia an argonian city on the east coast, somewhere between Thorn and Archon? At least that's what the only book (Pocket Guide to the Empire - 3rd Edition) that I could find that ever references it claims. So how does Shadowfen compromise it at all?
Is Morrowind-Arnesia some kind of fanon that Tamriel Rebuilt came up? Because the only official references to it on UESP and Imperial Library are the upper mentioned Pocket Guide, the Arnesian War and the phrase 'Orphan of Arnesia'. Non of which call it a region of Morrowind.
I think you might be mixing fanon into your hardcore-canon add-on.

The only city I know of that the current placing may have erased is Sotha Sil, which arguably might not even be canon city anymore, as it only ever appeared on a concept art released on the 10th Anniversary of TES (maybe drawn for TES2 originally?).
And even if it still exists, it may still be outside of Shadowfen's borders, so might not be erased after all.
Otherwise I think the only thing we know of southern Morrowind is that it's swampy.

It isn't clear what Arnesia is, but based on PGE3, it's surely a place in Eastern Black Marsh. We can only speculate how far south it is from Morrowind for now. As for the Deshaan-Shadowfen gap, the lore says that there are mountains in southwest Morrowind and "upland forests" in northwestern Black Marsh. It's definitely not Arnesia, but it's not what we see in ESO either.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Hmm, is there actually any lore/book in ESO supporting this political layout during the 2E?
The fact that half of Stonefalls (Kragenmoor, Ebonheart) is Dres territory in ESO definitely contradicts it. They also have a foothold in Deshaan, might have owned Silent Mire and likely owned Stormhold and Mud-tree village before the Ebonheart Pact was formed. Whether through deliberate writing or negligence (I'd guess the former in this case tbh), Dres owns a huge portion of the territory that Hlaalu would acquire by the end of the 3E (and thus is marked as yellow on the map).
Also, emphasis on 'rough', that map isn't even particularly accurate for the late 3E; Vvardenfell is offically Temple territory and the Great Houses only really have power within the walls of their settlements. Ashlanders aren't an acknowledged political party. Map also lacks the dozens of pockets of Imperial power on the island. And doesn't mark Molag Mar as Indoril territory.

The physical outline and features of Tamriel might be immutable (save for natural erosion and other catastrophes, magical reshapings and just plain old regular humanoid constructions), but political borders are not set in stone.

We haven't had an official political map of Morrowind made since before TESIII and that map showed most of Vvardenfell as Ashlands, with every city but Viva*e belonging to House Redoran. We have textual descriptions of the Great Houses' strongholds, but not really boundaries between them. They might not have formally existed before the Third Empire assigned the six administrative districts of the province.

Molag Mar shouldn't be marked as Indoril territory, because it isn't and neither is Vivec. At best, House Indoril has de facto influence over Temple settlements through kinsmen with positions of authority within the Temple, but that's not the same thing as the temporal power House Telvanni has along Azura's Coast.

And contrary to a couple of claims on this thread, House Indoril does traditionally use slaves, at least in the 3rd Era:

"The Dark Elves have traditionally permitted enslavement of Humans, Orcs, Argonians, and Khajiit, and mistreatment of these races is not recognized as a crime, other than as a crime against property. Slavery is not now practiced in Summerset Isles or Valenwood, and its practice is on the wane in Morrowind. By terms of the Armistice, Morrowind defines its own laws and customs, and slavery remains legal. Slavery is uncommon in Redoran and Hlaalu Districts, common in Telvanni, Indoril, and Dres Districts." - Brallion, the slave trader in Sadrith Mora's Great Market.

EnerG · June 2022

@ZOS yall honestly dont even have to change base game zones AT ALL if the OG zones dont match an accurate world map its NBD, but by fixing the world map, you arent fekin with the lore as much as you have been.

Vylaera · June 2022

I wanted to take the time to write a full response to the Shadowfen question.

At its core, this issue is a complex one, that both myself and Thal-J, as well as other friends in our discord, have deliberated on quite extensively. Some of the justifications for why we decided to move it can be inverted and turned around back to form an argument not to move it. However, we both agreed that the correct course of action to make an Accurate World Map was to move Shadowfen south into Black Marsh and where Stormhold is canonically located. I will go over these in detail here, so strap in for what will be a long post.

There's a few issues I'd like to mention here as a sort-of table of contents, and that's the aforementioned (in page 1 of this post's comments) issue with there not being a loremaster on-duty when the map and the zones were being constructed, all of Morrowind itself getting its geography changed (which will act as a concession to the first point), and the Rift-Stonefalls connection. After this, I'll touch on a few other relevant things to mention. This, as you can already tell, is not a formal essay by any stretch.

The first point mentioned the fact there was no loremaster to guide the process for the construction of the base game.
Source, quoting from UESP:
{{Anchor|On Elder Scrolls Online's use of a wolf as Indoril's sigil (06/15/17)

Early in ESO's development, like nine years ago, well before we had any lore-checking processes in place, the wolf got picked for the Indoril banner based on the stylized wolf-head that appeared on Mehra Drora's gorget in TES3. This got promulgated onto some other assets, and it didn't get spotted until ESO: MW was in PTS testing. We're gradually sorting it out, but doing that kind of thing means diverting resources from the next DLC, so corrections don't always happen instantly.
End quote
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Lawrence_Schick's_Posts

What we infer from this, based on the fact this was written in 2017, and 9 years prior to 2017 was 2009, and given that ESO began development in 2007, the map and the zones were already finalized and being constructed well before a loremaster was present to make sure the zones were being made correctly according to the lore.

So essentially this is a foundations question. Not a matter of whether the intention was to change up Morrowind's Geography. We can plainly see that the teams building ESO way-back-when were not being double checked to ensure that what they were doing followed the robust lore of the Elder Scrolls franchise. Based on this alone, we decided that this was enough to ignore the in-game connection and move Shadowfen to where it's actually located in lore. ZOS simply got it wrong because the team leads didn't reference prior lore and instead built what they wanted to build.

However, moving to the second point listed, which I said was concessionary, is that all of Morrowind's geography did indeed change. Whether this was initially intentional or not, it did change. Now of course, I personally don't agree with this line of thinking I'm about to lay out, but I feel it necessary to mention since the point here is a deep dive.

Given that Cities were moved around, and the game presents these as though this is how it's really supposed to be, as there are quests dependent on these being where they are in-game, and quests are all canon, we can say that Shadowfen and Stormhold being farther north into where Morrowind's southern border used to be is a retroactive continuity change. Mournhold is now farther south and west, Narsis is farther north and west. The Thirr River doesn't exist as it used to, and the river that Mournhold now sits on (which ESO insists is a lake? dumb.) has taken precedence over the former Thirr river for trade and geographic significance. This is how it is now. (It isn't and Bethesda will never accept it). Therefore Shadowfen should remain where it is given that this is a geographic retcon and we can visibly see Mournhold from Shadowfen just over the wall that separates the zones.

However however, the above point is inconsistent in two key ways. The Rift-Stonefalls connection is just as obvious and undeniable as Shadowfen's connection with Deshaan, and Lawrence Schick, the Loremaster at Zenimax at the time this quote was made, says quite plainly that the map that shows Eastmarch and the Rift being where they are, is wrong.

Quoting from UESP:
Eastmarch and Skuldafn appear to be wrong, geographically, in Elder Scrolls Online. (06/19/15)

Phrastus of Elinhir says, “Our latter-day Nords are not well known for the scholarly attainments, and cartography is not one of their strongpoints. On their maps, sites of great importance—to Nords, that is—are often distorted and exaggerated. So it is with the eerie aerie of Skuldafn, which holds great significance for our superstitious northern brethren. They have never been comfortable with the fact that the Dark Elves hold the west coast of the Inner Sea all the way up to Blacklight; in some cases their maps elide that fact entirely. But it is there nonetheless.”
End quote
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-lawrence-schick

Following this logic, since we're supposed to ignore the visible in-game connection of The Rift to Stonefalls, we should also ignore the connection between Shadowfen and Dhesaan. If the map is wrong here and should follow the layout of old maps, then the same should logically be applied elsewhere on the map that is inconsistent with prior lore which had been solid for over 15 years before ESO allegedly changed it.

And in case anyone doesn't know or may have forgotten, this is what the transition looks like between The Rift and Stonefalls.

Fort Virak viewed from The Rift.

The edge of The Rift zone right before the load screen into Stonefalls

Where you emerge after going through the loadscreen into Stonefalls.

If we're told, explicitly by the developers themselves, that this is wrong and we should ignore this, then there is no reason to not also apply this same logic to the connection between Shadowfen and Dehsaan. The Velothis arm of Morrowind still exists, and so does the Southern Marsh, what we've been calling Arnesia since that's what Tamriel Rebuilt calls it, and TR has been much more careful and considerate of the lore that I quite frankly would sooner call it canon before I would any of ESO's changes. One was made by dedicated fans of the series who respect the lore, the other may have been as well but was obviously very poorly executed and lacked a lore nerd to correct mistakes before they became uncorrectable.

Important to mention now that the main three points of this comment have been made, is the worldbuilding aspects of Shadowfen and southern Morrowind.

House Dres is the agricultural powerhouse of Morrowind, and Hlaalu is the economic powerhouse of Morrowind. These are industries that require a lot of land and a lot of space from their natural enemies. Both House Hlaalu and Dres own more slaves than the other houses combined. If Narsis, the capitol of Hlaalu, is a stone's throw away from Black Marsh, and was not a good distance away with a large land buffer between them, then Hlaalu would not feel comfortable, and would likely be prey to militant and vengeful Argonians who can simply take a few boats up the river and begin shelling Narsis. Additionally, Hlaalu has absolute no territory in ESO, save for one single minor city which is supposed to be their capitol. This is not the bedrock of an economic empire or a slave-owning agricultural House.

Furthermore, House Dres has an unknown amount of territory in the Tear peninsula, and one single plantation immediately south of Mournhold. There's river access and mountains between Deshaan and Tear, which Argonians could very easily blockade and cut off food from the rest of Morrowind. From a worldbuilding standpoint, this doesn't make any sense.

A few Argonian vessels could totally block off the food House Dres produces for the province. The fact that this never happened is because Shadowfen's placement in ESO is not correct and is not canon, and should be ignored and changed.

Additionally, Stormhold, according to TES Travels Stormhold, is built on an Ayleid City. Stormhold in ESO is built on an Ayleid city, meaning ESO Stormhold is Stormhold, not a version of Stormhold which then gets moved south sometime between ESO and TES Arena.

If we consider Morrowind's borders haven't changed and that Stormhold is in Morrowind and has simply changed hands, it makes absolutely no sense for Ayleids to have built a city there. The Great Resdaynia was solidified as a sovereign state well before the Ayleids began building their empire in Cyrodiil, and certainly before the Barsaebics colonized Black Marsh. Under no circumstances would House Hlaalu have allowed the Ayleids to annex their territory and build a city.

The Ayleid empire began in Cyrodiil in the late Merethic Era. Meanwhile, some sources claim the Velothi Exodus occurred in the Dawn Era, meaning Veloth and the Chimer began claiming and building Resdayn well before the Ayleids even existed.

There's more examples I could give to say Shadowfen's placement is wrong and bad, but this comment is already extremely long and I don't feel like typing anymore.

Given everything, I think it is appropriate to ignore ESO's world and move Shadowfen south to where it is supposed to be according to the lore.

Ermiq · June 2022

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

We see that Shadowfen and Deeshan are touching ingame so that is what it is, what we see ingame should take pirority over outdated lore, this huge gap on your map is an immersion killer.

^I double this^.
Apparently, I really appreciate the work you have done, but I don't use your map exactly because it doesn't correlate with how zones are actually represented in the game.

Vylaera · June 2022

Ermiq wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

We see that Shadowfen and Deeshan are touching ingame so that is what it is, what we see ingame should take pirority over outdated lore, this huge gap on your map is an immersion killer.

^I double this^.
Apparently, I really appreciate the work you have done, but I don't use your map exactly because it doesn't correlate with how zones are actually represented in the game.

Please read the comment directly above you.

phantasmalD · June 2022

I actually went and crosschecked TR's forums for any reference for Arnesia.

If I understand correctly, this is the current, official, up-to-date Morrowind map of TR.
What they call Arnesia is that little dark green marsh at the very bottom, which arguably is actually northern Argonia. Lorewise checks out, seems like a probable location that really doesn't contradict the Imperial Guide.

Even within the context of TR, Arnesia is apparently not the whole southern part of Morrowind, just a very thin stripe of forest-y bog in south-eastern Morrowind, under Tear and thus has nothing to do with Shadowfen.

But as Thal_J said, the name of the area is actually irrelevant when the main question is if the area's existence should be respected and respresented.
What I'm trying to get at is tho that when the basis of your mod is extreme faithfulness to the official map, then you should be careful to not mix-in fanon facts. I hope I don't have to explain how that would compromise the premise of the mod.

Also, one more noticeable thing about this map: notice where they placed Narsis. Just a stone's throw away from the southern border, almost directly in line with Tear. Considering that you hold Narsis location against ESO, shouldn't you hold it against TR as well?
Conversely, if you accept it in TR, then you should accept it in ESO too, no?
(Although admittedly I don't know whether their placement predates ESO or not.)

Additionally, Hlaalu has absolute no territory in ESO, save for one single minor city which is supposed to be their capitol.

They also own Seyda Neen. And have several townhouses in major cities. And the Dren Plantation near Suran, I think (the grandmaster of House Hlaalu in Morrowind was Vedam Dren, so Dren is presumably a minor house under Hlaalu). Maybe not much more, but still more than just one city.

Vylaera wrote: »

[...]and given that ESO began development in 2007 [...]

This is actually a very important point that I forgot to address until now.
Up till now we've been comparing ESO's map to the Anthology map. But that map was released on 10 September, 2013. ESO released on 4 April 2014. Just under 8 months after the map came out. So I think we can at least cut ZoS some slack for not following a map that flat-out didn't exist for the majority of development.

When development started, the most up to date map was 2006 Oblivion Codex one. And when you compare the initial 2014 ESO map to that one, things get far more accurate.
Like several things that you deemed mistakes and fixed in your mod actually stop being mistakes. For example, Hew's Bane is actually in the correct position, according to the 2006 map.

Other than some minor misalignments, their one big mistake was misplacing Eastmarch+Riften, which resulted in a scrunched up Vvardenfell when they tried to rectify it by giving some space to Blacklight.

Vylaera wrote: »

(It isn't and Bethesda will never accept it).

You base that opinion on what? I think Bethesda is far more likely to go with the path of least resistance, which would be embracing the retcon and just redrawing the map. Especially if the area in question hasn't been seen since Arena.

Imo ESO is quite likely a mapping project for Bethesda, ZoS is creating an updated, detailed base structure that they can build single player games on in the future. Basically off-loading tons of creative writing on a subsidiary.
Chances are that nothing that you see in ESO will be thrown out, but accepted as canon and expanded upon.

Also, likely the reason why there wasn't serious lore checking in the early days of ESO is because Bethesda was busy developing Skyrim.

However however, the above point is inconsistent in two key ways. The Rift-Stonefalls connection is just as obvious and undeniable as Shadowfen's connection with Deshaan, and Lawrence Schick, the Loremaster at Zenimax at the time this quote was made, says quite plainly that the map that shows Eastmarch and the Rift being where they are, is wrong.

Quoting from UESP:
Eastmarch and Skuldafn appear to be wrong, geographically, in Elder Scrolls Online. (06/19/15)

Phrastus of Elinhir says, “Our latter-day Nords are not well known for the scholarly attainments, and cartography is not one of their strongpoints. On their maps, sites of great importance—to Nords, that is—are often distorted and exaggerated. So it is with the eerie aerie of Skuldafn, which holds great significance for our superstitious northern brethren. They have never been comfortable with the fact that the Dark Elves hold the west coast of the Inner Sea all the way up to Blacklight; in some cases their maps elide that fact entirely. But it is there nonetheless.”
End quote
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-lawrence-schick

Following this logic, since we're supposed to ignore the visible in-game connection of The Rift to Stonefalls, we should also ignore the connection between Shadowfen and Dhesaan. If the map is wrong here and should follow the layout of old maps, then the same should logically be applied elsewhere on the map that is inconsistent with prior lore which had been solid for over 15 years before ESO allegedly changed it.

And in case anyone doesn't know or may have forgotten, this is what the transition looks like between The Rift and Stonefalls.
Fort Virak viewed from The Rift.

The edge of The Rift zone right before the load screen into Stonefalls

Where you emerge after going through the loadscreen into Stonefalls.

Riften being misplaced actually doesn't invalidate of the Stonefalls - Riften connection. Merely means that the path is likely much longer. Ultimately it doesn't matter how long the path is in-game, as it's just an downscaled representation of a pass connecting Riften and Stonefalls through the Velothi Mountains.

One thing that you're ignoring is that the game is not a 1:1 representation of Tamriel. No game had a 1:1 ratio since Daggerfall. The actual scale is like 1:1000, or maybe even bigger. That one minute step in reality is probably hours of travel.

This also goes for other things that you claim are silly. For example, the Dres farm next to Mournhold. Realistically speaking, it's obviously not just 3 houses and 2 fields with 6 people all together. If it's significant enough to be shown at a 1:1000 scale, then it's likely hundreds of acres of farmland. The game just de-scales everything.

The game does have a big issue with being pretty liberal with the scaling ratio tho, and so some zones are scaled differently and end up unrealistically small or big, compared to others.

The Velothis arm of Morrowind still exists

The Velothi mountains are still present in ESO; that's where Blessed Crucible takes place. The dungeon even allows the game to portray it in a larger scale than how overland does.

Furthermore, House Dres has an unknown amount of territory in the Tear peninsula, and one single plantation immediately south of Mournhold. There's river access and mountains between Deshaan and Tear, which Argonians could very easily blockade and cut off food from the rest of Morrowind. From a worldbuilding standpoint, this doesn't make any sense.
A few Argonian vessels could totally block off the food House Dres produces for the province. The fact that this never happened is because Shadowfen's placement in ESO is not correct and is not canon, and should be ignored and changed.

Let me jump back to TR for a moment, this is their height map for Morrowind.

Notice how north-west from Tear there's a giant mountain, isolating the peninsula from the rest of Morrowind.
In fact, I'll go one step further. Here's the same location on the Anthology map.

Funny, is that nonsense worldbuilding I see on the sacred Anthology map??!? :shocked emoji:

Sorry, that was needlessly hostile and passive-agressive. I apologize. But I wanted to make the point that sometimes what we want to denounce as canon might be more official than we'd like to believe.
I actually was also not aware of the fact that Tear is surrounded by mountains, but it's there. On the Anthology map. Soooo, unfortunately, that has to be called canon.

Although I'm unsure if it was intentional worldbuilding on ESO's part, since early ZOS just loved defaulting to mountains as region borders, even when they didn't really made sense. But on the Anthology map Shadowfen is actually marked as a mountainous/hilly area, so I guess it's actually more accurate than I thought. Huh.

Anyway, back to Dres being blocked off. In actuality you know why argonians couldn't do that? Because Thorn. Thorn is the turf of the Archein, the opportunistic argonian tribe who are infamous for being blood traitors. They work with the Dres, enslaving and selling their fellow argonians for personal gains; they essentially block any anti-Dres attack that would aim to surround and cut them off.

There's a similar situation on the west side, in the foothills of the Valus mountains, the Xit-xaht tribe terrorizes their own race. And there are likely other hostile tribes that are yet to be shown.

Argonians have a fractured society, they are not unified in their goals and methods. Saxhleel tribes are not unlike the Great House, just at a larger, more fractured scale. There are altruistic, thieving, murdering, singing, building, etc tribes, and they don't each see eye to eye. That's partially what allows foreign powers (like Imperials, Dunmer, Ayleid) to conquer them.
And some tribes are just flat-out pacifists.

So how's that for world building.

Additionally, Stormhold, according to TES Travels Stormhold, is built on an Ayleid City. Stormhold in ESO is built on an Ayleid city, meaning ESO Stormhold is Stormhold, not a version of Stormhold which then gets moved south sometime between ESO and TES Arena.

There are more than just one Ayleid city in Shadowfen. Like Zuuk, Gandranen or Loriasel.

Under no circumstances would House Hlaalu have allowed the Ayleids to annex their territory and build a city.

If there's any house that would let Ayleids settle in their territory it's Hlaalu, as long as they see profit in it.

Although did the Great Houses even exist in the Resdayn years? (The Ayleid empire fell in 1E243, centuries before the Chimer were transformed into Dunmer).
Also, let's not forget that the Dwemer also lived in Resdayn, freely building their cities (that still exist to date) and the Chimer couldn't really oust them from their territory either, and even made peace with them at one point.
Arguably Ayleid believes and mentality is closer to Chimer (daedra worshipping and slavery), so theoretically they would have had easier time to peacefully integrate into Chimer society.

And also, there's the Dwemer-Falmer and Ayleid-Bosmer examples of elven races coexisting and even providing shelter in times of need. Although the thing that Dwemer did can hardly be called help, but still, they did let the Falmer within their cities.

Closing words, one more funny thing about TR's map: it's actually just as, if not more, inaccurate as ZOS's maps.
Here's the Anthology map with their Morrowind overlayed :

Notice how Vvardenfell is just about perfectly aligned, while everything else is, well, yeeeeah.
Their Blacklight might be worse than ESO's Eastmarch.

Things don't get any better when you try to line things up based on the southern/western borders:

Everything just get scrunched up.

Don't misunderstand me tho. I don't hate TR. I think it's a wonderful and ambitious project, but it's ultimately just fandom wish fulfilment and, as I demonstrated above, it's absolutely not "more careful and considerate of the lore".

kaushad wrote: »

Molag Mar shouldn't be marked as Indoril territory, because it isn't and neither is Vivec. At best, House Indoril has de facto influence over Temple settlements through kinsmen with positions of authority within the Temple, but that's not the same thing as the temporal power House Telvanni has along Azura's Coast.

True, I guess you're right.

"The Dark Elves have traditionally permitted enslavement of Humans, Orcs, Argonians, and Khajiit, and mistreatment of these races is not recognized as a crime, other than as a crime against property. Slavery is not now practiced in Summerset Isles or Valenwood, and its practice is on the wane in Morrowind. By terms of the Armistice, Morrowind defines its own laws and customs, and slavery remains legal. Slavery is uncommon in Redoran and Hlaalu Districts, common in Telvanni, Indoril, and Dres Districts." - Brallion, the slave trader in Sadrith Mora's Great Market.

Peculiar, isn't Hlaalu like the second biggest slaveowners in TES3?
And yet this dialogue labels them as uncommon slavers. Interesting.

ADarklore · June 2022

I could see this being useful IF, and only IF, ZOS implemented it in-game. As it stands, this map may be correct LORE wise, but it is not correct ESO "game" wise. If they are never going to update their map, never going to use the regions that were expanded by this map, then IMO it's pointless for ESO in-game usage. Would look cool on the wall, but not so much functional for how the map matches the current in-game lore-faulty geography.

Vylaera · June 2022

@phantasmalD
I can't respond to all of this on my phone like I could at home on my PC, so I'll just be really brief and say that everything you said about the mountains, the PGE3 map vs Anthology, the TR stuff, and scale theory, is stuff I already knew and accounted for.

I'm regards specifically to the maps thing, yes, ESO's Hew's Bane was not improperly placed in the base game. I moved it because Anthology is the newest map, and it's 2022, so I go by the Anthology map. I never counted Hew's Bane against ZOS and you can never find an instance where I have. I moved HB because it's now not accurate according to Anthology, which is the latest Bethesda map.

The shape of Winterhold was also similar in ESO to the PGE3 map, and I didn't count that against ZOS either. But it's different in TES V and on the Anthology map, and the Anthology map and TES V are now the correct shape in 2022, so I changed Winterhold to fit current canon.

In the case of black marsh specifically, you can see I tried to synthesize PGE 3 and Anthology especially on the bottom section where Soulrest would be. In Anthology, it juts out more, but I found that ugly, so I just copied the Anthology bodies of water and aligned them based on the in-game shape which aligns with PGE3. A lot of nuance and balancing went into my map. I spent literally 8 months on it and it went through a dozen revisions.

Also remember that Anthology was re-released with the Skyrim Cookbook in March of 2019. I see this personally as a referendum on the canonicity of Tamriel's map, and Bethesda doubled down on their Anthology map rather than making a new one to align with ESO.

We also have to remember that, no, the youtuber guys who make lore videos (which are usually themselves quite starkly inaccurate) are not correct when they say that the games trump canon. The games are not the basis for what is canon and what is not. Games are a microtized version of what actually exists in lore, which are immaterial concepts that exist in literature and in maps.

In regards to the mountains on Anthology, there's a difference between those mountains and the ones in ESO. in ESO, there's a river up from Shadowfen, which according to ESO, are filled with Dunmer-Hating Argonians, and they could very easily do what I demonstrated on my map and blockade. On Anthology, there isn't a river there, so the lizards would have to cross through Thorn territory and Dres territory to reach those mountains, in which they'd be vulnerable still from both sides. That Shadowfen river changes everything.

In regards to using the name Arnesia, it's quite simply that there's actually a name to use, even if it's not canon or not entirely accurate. It's better than saying "Southern Morrowind" or "Southern Marshes", Arnesia rolls of the tongue better. I don't actually play TR and I don't consider it canon, because it's not. It's just a good resource to use in regards to talking about Morrowind, because the games have never expanded on mainland Morrowind before, and ESO's presentation is dubiously canon based simply on how much they got wrong.

Also, very important to remember in regards to TR, is that TR's mainland is based on the TES Arena projection, because TR began in like 2003 or 2004, and there was no other map of mainland tamriel until PGE3 and TES IV Oblivion. TR does not align with modern maps, which is why it's stretched out. TR and PT tamriel is dubbed "Thiccriel" because it's wide like the arena projection was.

Also I have to correct you that the Great Houses have existed for a very long time, though we don't know since when exactly. However, we do know that the houses had already been established as parties in Resdayn since well before the Battle of Red Mountain, as the Dwemer were known as House Dwemer, the unofficial or honorary 7th house of Morrowind.

I still seriously doubt an ancient Hlaalu would welcome ayleids. And using the Falmer and Dwemer as an example is, well, like you said yourself, not a good one. The Chimer hated the dwemer and only agreed to peacefully coexist because the dwemer were inexorably tied to Morrowind. I do not believe the Chimer would allow Ayleids to exist in Resdayn, since Ayleids would be foreign invaders, and like I said, the dwemer were already there and couldn't simply be foisted out.

I'm sure I missed something but I'm not home right now and the mobile forums aren't a perfect medium, to say the least. Though they aren't terrible.

Thal_J · June 2022

phantasmalD wrote: »

But as Thal_J said, the name of the area is actually irrelevant when the main question is if the area's existence should be respected and respresented.
What I'm trying to get at is tho that when the basis of your mod is extreme faithfulness to the official map, then you should be careful to not mix-in fanon facts. I hope I don't have to explain how that would compromise the premise of the mod.

[..]

Considering that you hold Narsis location against ESO, shouldn't you hold it against TR as well?
Conversely, if you accept it in TR, then you should accept it in ESO too, no?

Please understand that just because I mistakenly reference 1 (one) fanon name for an area, it doesn't mean we both wholeheatedly accept or agree with everything TR has ever done/ever will. Or even mean we will include TR stuff in the addon, for that matter.

When it comes to the addon, our stated mission goal is to correct ESO's map to be more accurate according to earlier official maps, such as Anthology. We extensively research and debate stuff before pen is put to paper and it is put on the map, so we won't let fanon sneak in. It's just sometimes, when having an informal discussion, stuff slips out, especially as I am a TR fan.

This addon's been in development for a better part of a year and the debates/arguments me and Vyl have had over lore accuracy could fill a book. That's how serious we are about it.

Note that Vyl has taken some minor inspiration from TR in particular surrounding the Telvanni peninsula, but that's just minor visual thing and could change down the line. (Rumour is next chapter is the Telvanni peninsula anyway...)

SerasWhip · June 2022

It's how Eastmarch swallows Blacklight that bothers me the most. Like why on earth?

phantasmalD · June 2022

Vylaera wrote: »

I never counted Hew's Bane against ZOS and you can never find an instance where I have.

Eh, could be just me reading too much into the wording of the changelog.
I certainly won't go looking for such a thing.

In the case of black marsh specifically, you can see I tried to synthesize PGE 3 and Anthology especially on the bottom section where Soulrest would be. In Anthology, it juts out more, but I found that ugly, so I just copied the Anthology bodies of water and aligned them based on the in-game shape which aligns with PGE3. A lot of nuance and balancing went into my map. I spent literally 8 months on it and it went through a dozen revisions.

Hmmm, isn't that kind of hypocritical, to cherrypick parts of the Anthology map on personal whim. I mean it's obv not as bad as the base map, but you're still deviating from what would be absolute canon.
Ultimately it's a small detail tho and it does look good. Tbh I care more about the fact that Blackwood was reared back a bit and doesn't go as far south as on the ZoS map.

Games are a microtized version of what actually exists in lore, which are immaterial concepts that exist in literature and in maps.

But it's a known fact that the literature of TES utilizes the unreliable narrator trope; every written text have to be taken by a grain of salt, as they are deliberately written from the point of a politically and racially biased narrator. They aren't objective, divine truth, but a shard of the whole.

Also, wasn't 'game trumps canon' something that Todd said? Something along the line of 'whatever you see in the game comes first'. I think he has the highest level of authority on the subject.

which according to ESO, are filled with Dunmer-Hating Argonians, and they could very easily do what I demonstrated on my map and blockade.

Can I get a source on that? Don't know what book I'm looking for to fact check that.

On Anthology, there isn't a river there

Niben is pretty much the only one river that's marked on it, tbh. No Thir or Yorgrim or etc. Their absence doesn't equal non-existence.

On Anthology, there isn't a river there, so the lizards would have to cross through Thorn territory and Dres territory to reach those mountains, in which they'd be vulnerable still from both sides. That Shadowfen river changes everything.

Hmmm, two things: one, that river between Shadowfen and Deshaan is actually a waterfall. On both ends. Which kind of makes sense, considering that they are two sides of a mountain, likely with a water reserve at the top. Unless argonians are now also salmon, I don't think the river being there makes it any easier to covertly attack the Dunmer.
And two: are you saying that the Dres would somehow be unaware of the river and the dangers it poses?
Or knowing about it they'd just calmly sit on their bum, twiddling their thumb, waiting to get blockaded.

Far more likely that they would take control of the high ground, setting up watchtowers and gates to hinder any movement.
The river being there actually makes it weaker for offense, not stronger. If it was a hidden craggy pass or an underground cave system then there would be a chance that they might not know about it. But they could hardly miss the loud crashing of the water.

It's better than saying "Southern Morrowind" or "Southern Marshes"

It isn't, because it confuses everyone who's not in on the information and it is essentially spreading misinformation.
It's not much better than badly researched youtube lore videos.

Also, very important to remember in regards to TR, is that TR's mainland is based on the TES Arena projection, because TR began in like 2003 or 2004, and there was no other map of mainland tamriel until PGE3 and TES IV Oblivion. TR does not align with modern maps, which is why it's stretched out. TR and PT tamriel is dubbed "Thiccriel" because it's wide like the arena projection was.

Hmm, you have to reeeeally stretch the Arena map to make it fit, but I guess I'll accept that as an explanation.

Also I have to correct you that the Great Houses have existed for a very long time, though we don't know since when exactly. However, we do know that the houses had already been established as parties in Resdayn since well before the Battle of Red Mountain, as the Dwemer were known as House Dwemer, the unofficial or honorary 7th house of Morrowind.

Yeah, in hindsight the answer is obvious, Great Houses must have existed, otherwise House Dagoth couldn't be the Lost House. Or Indoril be the most influental house.

Thal_J wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

But as Thal_J said, the name of the area is actually irrelevant when the main question is if the area's existence should be respected and respresented.
What I'm trying to get at is tho that when the basis of your mod is extreme faithfulness to the official map, then you should be careful to not mix-in fanon facts. I hope I don't have to explain how that would compromise the premise of the mod.

[..]

Considering that you hold Narsis location against ESO, shouldn't you hold it against TR as well?
Conversely, if you accept it in TR, then you should accept it in ESO too, no?

Please understand that just because I mistakenly reference 1 (one) fanon name for an area, it doesn't mean we both wholeheatedly accept or agree with everything TR has ever done/ever will. Or even mean we will include TR stuff in the addon, for that matter.

When it comes to the addon, our stated mission goal is to correct ESO's map to be more accurate according to earlier official maps, such as Anthology. We extensively research and debate stuff before pen is put to paper and it is put on the map, so we won't let fanon sneak in. It's just sometimes, when having an informal discussion, stuff slips out, especially as I am a TR fan.

This addon's been in development for a better part of a year and the debates/arguments me and Vyl have had over lore accuracy could fill a book. That's how serious we are about it.

Note that Vyl has taken some minor inspiration from TR in particular surrounding the Telvanni peninsula, but that's just minor visual thing and could change down the line. (Rumour is next chapter is the Telvanni peninsula anyway...)

I'm sorry if I came of as overtly hostile and unpleasant, I was just super confused when I read 'Arnesia', thinking that I missed some huge lore bits about southern Morrowind, and was miffed when it was just fanon. This is why I ask you to refrain from non-canon terminology.

I'm super passionate about this subject, I mean like the only thread that I've ever made on this forum was on this exact topic, the lorebreaking of ZoS' map. I painfully badly want to see it fixed.
I just think that sometimes compromises are needed, as being TOO faithful to lore might be more harmful.

(Rumour is next chapter is the Telvanni peninsula anyway...)

Oh, that reminds me. The description of your mod says "The High Isle chapter, and Galen in Q4 later this year, are also placed wrong. " What's Galen? The only reference to it that I could find to is 'Tel Galen' and your mod. Did I miss something? Since when do we know what the Q4 DLC is?

Vylaera · June 2022

I'm not going to respond to everything because I think my answers withstand and we're not changing our minds on Shadowfen being wrong - because it is wrong. It's our job with this addon to correct mistakes, if we don't correct mistakes then we're essentially endorsing any we didn't correct and telling ZOS their mistreatment of the lore is fine by us.

phantasmalD wrote: »

(Rumour is next chapter is the Telvanni peninsula anyway...)

Oh, that reminds me. The description of your mod says "The High Isle chapter, and Galen in Q4 later this year, are also placed wrong. " What's Galen? The only reference to it that I could find to is 'Tel Galen' and your mod. Did I miss something? Since when do we know what the Q4 DLC is?

We know.

Inari Telvanni · June 2022

phantasmalD wrote: »

Oh, that reminds me. The description of your mod says "The High Isle chapter, and Galen in Q4 later this year, are also placed wrong. " What's Galen? The only reference to it that I could find to is 'Tel Galen' and your mod. Did I miss something? Since when do we know what the Q4 DLC is?

I'm not entirely sure whether I'm allowed to discuss datamined content on the forums, but I will say that there's been datamining determining the location of the Q4 DLC. "Galen" refers to the "Druids of Galen", the people that the Bretons are said to descent from back in TES:1.

Thal_J · June 2022

phantasmalD wrote: »

Oh, that reminds me. The description of your mod says "The High Isle chapter, and Galen in Q4 later this year, are also placed wrong. " What's Galen? The only reference to it that I could find to is 'Tel Galen' and your mod. Did I miss something? Since when do we know what the Q4 DLC is?

Officially? It is hinted at in lorebooks in High Isle if you're paying attention.

Unofficially? I've glitched out of the High Isle map to explore the upcoming zone, and datamined the game to know that Galen is what is coming next for Q4.

Supreme_Atromancer · June 2022

Marto wrote: »

This is a game first, and a story second. Lore is tertiary.

Show me why these things must be mutually exclusive.

This isn't Super Mario Brothers. People love Elder Scrolls because of the lore. ZOS has a mandate to make the experience authentic- at least as much as gameplay must be good.

Supreme_Atromancer · June 2022

Suedyin_Loreseeker wrote: »

I know I am probably in a significant minority! Maybe less than 0.001% of players?

Interesting, isn't it. The larger TES community has a very robust and vocal lore community. Yet despite its relative vitality, ESO has next to nothing. Maybe after 8 years of posts like the OP, across The Official Forums, Reddit and elsewhere, maybe the fact that the best response we get include things like "You know, its surprising how triggered everyone was that we missed that little bit of land between Northern and Southern Elsweyr.", maybe there's something in that.

Supreme_Atromancer · June 2022

noblecron wrote: »

On the other hand I heard somewhere that they were going to use the lore map and were told no

@noblecron I'd love to hear more about this

Idinuse · June 2022

/kowtow

phantasmalD · June 2022

Inari Telvanni wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Oh, that reminds me. The description of your mod says "The High Isle chapter, and Galen in Q4 later this year, are also placed wrong. " What's Galen? The only reference to it that I could find to is 'Tel Galen' and your mod. Did I miss something? Since when do we know what the Q4 DLC is?

I'm not entirely sure whether I'm allowed to discuss datamined content on the forums, but I will say that there's been datamining determining the location of the Q4 DLC. "Galen" refers to the "Druids of Galen", the people that the Bretons are said to descent from back in TES:1.

Thank you! That helped me orient myself in the blackhole of lore.

Thal_J wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Oh, that reminds me. The description of your mod says "The High Isle chapter, and Galen in Q4 later this year, are also placed wrong. " What's Galen? The only reference to it that I could find to is 'Tel Galen' and your mod. Did I miss something? Since when do we know what the Q4 DLC is?

Officially? It is hinted at in lorebooks in High Isle if you're paying attention.

Unofficially? I've glitched out of the High Isle map to explore the upcoming zone, and datamined the game to know that Galen is what is coming next for Q4.

I mean a ton of things and locations are mentioned constantly. The one place that came up constantly was Y'ffelon. With it's mysterious third druid circle. I think Wrothgar comes up a couple times?
If there was serious references to Galen then I guess I either forgot about it or missed them.

After checking imperial Library for references I think it's pretty easy to miss, in all 126 books of High Isle it's mentioned like 3-4 times altogether, as a fourth island of the Systres. Some of the books don't even really link it to Systres. (like History of House Mornard)
But I guess visiting Galen is a more logical continuation for the chapter's story.

Vylaera wrote: »

I'm not going to respond to everything because I think my answers withstand and we're not changing our minds on Shadowfen being wrong - because it is wrong. It's our job with this addon to correct mistakes, if we don't correct mistakes then we're essentially endorsing any we didn't correct and telling ZOS their mistreatment of the lore is fine by us.

At this point it's not even about Shadowfen's location. I concede on that part.
I'm debating the notion that any river could become the Achilles heel of House Dres. Implying they'd be unaware or unable to take advantage of it.
As if their entire role in society didn't hinge on their ability to navigate Black Marsh and capture argonians.
A river like that would b as much of an entry point into Morrowind as it'd be an entry point into Black Marsh, and an easy choke point to control.
Sure, underestimating your enemies is a common trope, but ignoring the river would go beyond that.

But I can't force you to debate me, so whatever.

We know.

Thanks. Killer answer. Helped a lot. /s

Thal_J · June 2022

phantasmalD wrote: »

I mean a ton of things and locations are mentioned constantly. The one place that came up constantly was Y'ffelon. With it's mysterious third druid circle. I think Wrothgar comes up a couple times?
If there was serious references to Galen then I guess I either forgot about it or missed them.

After checking imperial Library for references I think it's pretty easy to miss, in all 126 books of High Isle it's mentioned like 3-4 times altogether, as a fourth island of the Systres. Some of the books don't even really link it to Systres. (like History of House Mornard)
But I guess visiting Galen is a more logical continuation for the chapter's story.

I personally have been datamining the game for years, it is just intuition at this point what to look for. When you know the lore and how ZOS teases future content, it is almost instinct to know where to look, what to pay attention to and etc.

Fourth isle? Mysterious unused druid circle that only appears at the end of the main quest? Legacy of the Bretons? Bretons being descended from Druids of Galen as per TES1? Definitely going to be used for Q4, it's just an educated conclusion to make.

That's just from the official sources and hints, the datamining makes it all the more definitive.

chattygeekHD · June 2022

The work you have done is breath taking, and is testament to the love both yourself, and those that have helped you have of this game and the Elder Scrolls series.

I think it may be a bit unfair to say that ZOS "don't care" about fixing the map - as I also know how passionate about the game many of the devs and people I have seen talking about the game are. But I do see your point, and the need for ZOS to perhaps think of doing the update - (I'm still relatively new to the game compared to the veterans of this world!, but I am surprised that the map actually is an inaccurate as it is - but I would also be very surprised if ZOS aren't already aware of the need to change it for future additions / chapters).

To finish though, absolutely love the work you have put into this. Although I am an Xbox-S user, so won't see the advantage of this, an a massive Elder Scrolls geek I am so grateful you have taken time out of your life to do this, and I hope you appreciate how this will benefit people and also the awesome Dev team at ZOS if they are able to implement what you have done into their game.

Muchus Loves!

noblecron · June 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

noblecron wrote: »

On the other hand I heard somewhere that they were going to use the lore map and were told no

@noblecron I'd love to hear more about this

It's an in old interview. I'm having trouble finding it but you would have to look on Reddit and other areas with interviews from 2015/2014

Vylaera · July 2022

Working on improvements for version 2 post-High Isle.

Current working plan is to expand the map a little to accommodate the Systres, get rid of the Eltheric map to conserve file size and to make updating and adding new features to the map easier, make more improvements to the map, add bodies of water, and rivers on an optional layer toggleable in the settings.

So far to these ends,
The map has been expanded to fit the Systres. Improvements are being made such as a more lore accurate shape for Summerset and the reduction in size of Firemoth Island so that there isn't a weird cutout in Morrowind. Bodies of water that would be visible at lore scale, i.e large lakes and rivers, are baked into the map. Small rivers have been drawn and will be toggleable like stated earlier. I've made some minor tweaks to the rivers on my map so that they don't break fundamental laws of nature like they do in ESO.

Getting the map back to a finished state requires a ton of editing, so it's not quite ready to show yet, though I do have these outlines to show.

Outline of Tamriel without minor rivers

Outline of Tamriel with minor rivers

As you could also see, Pyandonea has been added to the map where it belongs, southeast of summerset. The shape I chose for Pyandonea is from the current version of Project Tamriel's gridmap, as Pyandonea doesn't have a canon shape, though most of the community has reached consensus on the crescent shape.

I'll have more updates soon, as well as details on a confirmation we got from ZOS stating they know the map is wrong but won't fix it.