Ok, enough with the undeath passive

SkadiMZ · June 2022

It's had its time in the sun, now it needs to be reworked or changed. Maybe make it only count during vamp ult? Make it trigger major/minor defile? I don't know, but something needs to change.

With hybridization, heals are stronger than ever and it makes the undeath passive stronger in combination. Save for 1vX situations, it rewards bad play.

For any naysayers, don't worry, you'll adapt.

Kikazaru · June 2022

Idk.... with the amount of gankers this patch, I'm okay with my undeath. At least on PC/NA... I'm bumping into gank squads too often now.

twing1_ · June 2022

SkadiMZ wrote: »

It's had its time in the sun, now it needs to be reworked or changed. Maybe make it only count during vamp ult? Make it trigger major/minor defile? I don't know, but something needs to change.

With hybridization, heals are stronger than ever and it makes the undeath passive stronger in combination. Save for 1vX situations, it rewards bad play.

For any naysayers, don't worry, you'll adapt.

Standardize health recovery values across the board by bumping them up to 3x the value of their magicka/stamina recovery counterparts. Base stamina/magicka recovery = 514, base health recovery should be 1542. Item set bonuses give 129 stamina/magicka recovery, item set bonuses to health recovery should give 387. Some sources of health recovery already respect this 3:1 ratio (look at eternal vigor, endurance set, beekeeper's gear, etc). I might even go so far as to suggest reverting the halving of health recovery by battle spirit.

Bumping up values of health recovery across the board increase the opportunity cost of using the "undeath" passive because inherent in being a vampire is a decrease to health recovery. Everyone else becomes tankier, while vampires do not.

Decrease healing values by another 10-20% through battlespirit to make up for the added tankiness from the increase to health recovery effectiveness. This further nerfs undeath, as it is a direct hit on an undeath user's only source of healing. This would also work to decrease the effectiveness of cross healing in ball groups, while the increase in base health recovery would help individual solo-play non-vampire survivability.

Win win win all around.

acastanza_ESO · June 2022

Undeath is literally the only worthwhile part of going vamp. If ZOS takes it away without giving vamp anything else literally no one will bother.

DrSlaughtr · June 2022

Undeath is only significantly helpful for squishier builds. If you're thonking away on a DK and can't finish then off, vamp 3 isn't the problem. The fact that some classes can burst heal from near death to 100% is the issue.

Unified_Gaming · June 2022

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Undeath is only significantly helpful for squishier builds. If you're thonking away on a DK and can't finish then off, vamp 3 isn't the problem. The fact that some classes can burst heal from near death to 100% is the issue.

100% this. The classes that seem to be performing the best consistently all have access to the best burst heals in the game with high burst damage. Pvp has really evolved into a burst contest now with the bigger burst winning and failing that burst heals with block just bring you back from 20% to 80%+ with 2 or 3 uses.

If your class lacks one of these aspects or both then it can't really compete and so is further encouraged to use undeath I.e. magick warden.

XiangliSYD · June 2022

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Undeath is only significantly helpful for squishier builds. If you're thonking away on a DK and can't finish then off, vamp 3 isn't the problem. The fact that some classes can burst heal from near death to 100% is the issue.

100% this. The classes that seem to be performing the best consistently all have access to the best burst heals in the game with high burst damage. Pvp has really evolved into a burst contest now with the bigger burst winning and failing that burst heals with block just bring you back from 20% to 80%+ with 2 or 3 uses.

If your class lacks one of these aspects or both then it can't really compete and so is further encouraged to use undeath I.e. magick warden.

This is very true. Long as DK has access to CoagBlood and big whip damage it will remain on top.

Vetixio · June 2022

Vamp is already struggling to be viable in PvP and even PvE and without Undeath it is pretty much hot garbage. It helps squishier builds like others have said, but it doesn't provide as much resistances as people think as it is counteracted by Light and Heavy armor taking more damage passives and extra damage from fire damage and Fighters Guild abilities.

Thecompton73 · June 2022

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Undeath is only significantly helpful for squishier builds. If you're thonking away on a DK and can't finish then off, vamp 3 isn't the problem. The fact that some classes can burst heal from near death to 100% is the issue.

it's actually exactly the opposite, the squisher you are the less it's going to save you when you get low on health. For example a squishy build with 26K health and 18 K resistances is going to get around 27% damage reduction from undeath at 10% health. Most people have at least 10K penetration so you're left with about 12% reduction from the armor for 39% total damage reduction.That seems like a lot. But being at 10% health equals only 2.6K left. So at that point all someone needs to do is hit you with 1 ability that would normally do 4300 damage, which is a pretty moderate amount for standard spammables, and even with the armor and undeath reductions it's still enough to finish you off.
Really undeath is very overrated. Even a build with 40K health is going to only have 4-8K left when they start getting a significant damage reduction and at that point the ramping damage modifiers on executes, the DW skill line, certain sets, class passives, or from bloodthirsty more than balance out the reduction. You have to pair undeath with defensive sets like Pariah plus a source of major protection and defensive CP stars if you want enough damage reduction to survive getting hit without blocking when you're that low on health.
As for the hypothetical DK, I'd say the ability to stack vigor, cinder strorm, and regeneration is more a problem than a burst heal. You can time a stun when someone is low on health to get around that, but when they've got 6K per second from HOTs ticking on them it's really hard to finish them even when you stun them at low health.

DrSlaughtr · June 2022

Thecompton73 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Undeath is only significantly helpful for squishier builds. If you're thonking away on a DK and can't finish then off, vamp 3 isn't the problem. The fact that some classes can burst heal from near death to 100% is the issue.

it's actually exactly the opposite, the squisher you are the less it's going to save you when you get low on health. For example a squishy build with 26K health and 18 K resistances is going to get around 27% damage reduction from undeath at 10% health. Most people have at least 10K penetration so you're left with about 12% reduction from the armor for 39% total damage reduction.That seems like a lot. But being at 10% health equals only 2.6K left. So at that point all someone needs to do is hit you with 1 ability that would normally do 4300 damage, which is a pretty moderate amount for standard spammables, and even with the armor and undeath reductions it's still enough to finish you off.
Really undeath is very overrated. Even a build with 40K health is going to only have 4-8K left when they start getting a significant damage reduction and at that point the ramping damage modifiers on executes, the DW skill line, certain sets, class passives, or from bloodthirsty more than balance out the reduction. You have to pair undeath with defensive sets like Pariah plus a source of major protection and defensive CP stars if you want enough damage reduction to survive getting hit without blocking when you're that low on health.
As for the hypothetical DK, I'd say the ability to stack vigor, cinder strorm, and regeneration is more a problem than a burst heal. You can time a stun when someone is low on health to get around that, but when they've got 6K per second from HOTs ticking on them it's really hard to finish them even when you stun them at low health.

You're looking at it from the wrong direction.

The more armor you have, the less undeath has an effect due to diminishing returns. That's why it's pointless to run vamp 3 on a high health, high armor character when all you need is mist form.

As someone who plays a 25k health, 10k armor NB and thicc magDK, undeath is much more effective in giving my NB a last ditch chance to survive. Vamp 3 vs 2 is drastically more obvious on this character.

My magDK doesn't get bursted down low enough to even require undeath. Vast majority of the time I don't even reach the bottom unless I'm already taking enough damage from enough sources that I'm dead anyway.

Having said all that, undeath mostly benefits characters with 25k resistances with a big burst heal.

Thecompton73 · June 2022

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Undeath is only significantly helpful for squishier builds. If you're thonking away on a DK and can't finish then off, vamp 3 isn't the problem. The fact that some classes can burst heal from near death to 100% is the issue.

it's actually exactly the opposite, the squisher you are the less it's going to save you when you get low on health. For example a squishy build with 26K health and 18 K resistances is going to get around 27% damage reduction from undeath at 10% health. Most people have at least 10K penetration so you're left with about 12% reduction from the armor for 39% total damage reduction.That seems like a lot. But being at 10% health equals only 2.6K left. So at that point all someone needs to do is hit you with 1 ability that would normally do 4300 damage, which is a pretty moderate amount for standard spammables, and even with the armor and undeath reductions it's still enough to finish you off.
Really undeath is very overrated. Even a build with 40K health is going to only have 4-8K left when they start getting a significant damage reduction and at that point the ramping damage modifiers on executes, the DW skill line, certain sets, class passives, or from bloodthirsty more than balance out the reduction. You have to pair undeath with defensive sets like Pariah plus a source of major protection and defensive CP stars if you want enough damage reduction to survive getting hit without blocking when you're that low on health.
As for the hypothetical DK, I'd say the ability to stack vigor, cinder strorm, and regeneration is more a problem than a burst heal. You can time a stun when someone is low on health to get around that, but when they've got 6K per second from HOTs ticking on them it's really hard to finish them even when you stun them at low health.

You're looking at it from the wrong direction.

The more armor you have, the less undeath has an effect due to diminishing returns. That's why it's pointless to run vamp 3 on a high health, high armor character when all you need is mist form.

As someone who plays a 25k health, 10k armor NB and thicc magDK, undeath is much more effective in giving my NB a last ditch chance to survive. Vamp 3 vs 2 is drastically more obvious on this character.

My magDK doesn't get bursted down low enough to even require undeath. Vast majority of the time I don't even reach the bottom unless I'm already taking enough damage from enough sources that I'm dead anyway.

Having said all that, undeath mostly benefits characters with 25k resistances with a big burst heal.

Well, I laid out my argument with math and you used an anecdote about your Nb and how it "feels" to you. People reading can decide which seems more credible.
Bu just for the record I also have a glass cannon 25K health NB and I can tell absolutely zero difference between how quickly I get killed at stage 2 and 3. Because as the math demonstrates by the time the mitigation reaches a significant amount my health is so low numerically a single spammable from the average PvP build still does enough damage to get the kill.

DrSlaughtr · June 2022

Thecompton73 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Undeath is only significantly helpful for squishier builds. If you're thonking away on a DK and can't finish then off, vamp 3 isn't the problem. The fact that some classes can burst heal from near death to 100% is the issue.

it's actually exactly the opposite, the squisher you are the less it's going to save you when you get low on health. For example a squishy build with 26K health and 18 K resistances is going to get around 27% damage reduction from undeath at 10% health. Most people have at least 10K penetration so you're left with about 12% reduction from the armor for 39% total damage reduction.That seems like a lot. But being at 10% health equals only 2.6K left. So at that point all someone needs to do is hit you with 1 ability that would normally do 4300 damage, which is a pretty moderate amount for standard spammables, and even with the armor and undeath reductions it's still enough to finish you off.
Really undeath is very overrated. Even a build with 40K health is going to only have 4-8K left when they start getting a significant damage reduction and at that point the ramping damage modifiers on executes, the DW skill line, certain sets, class passives, or from bloodthirsty more than balance out the reduction. You have to pair undeath with defensive sets like Pariah plus a source of major protection and defensive CP stars if you want enough damage reduction to survive getting hit without blocking when you're that low on health.
As for the hypothetical DK, I'd say the ability to stack vigor, cinder strorm, and regeneration is more a problem than a burst heal. You can time a stun when someone is low on health to get around that, but when they've got 6K per second from HOTs ticking on them it's really hard to finish them even when you stun them at low health.

You're looking at it from the wrong direction.

The more armor you have, the less undeath has an effect due to diminishing returns. That's why it's pointless to run vamp 3 on a high health, high armor character when all you need is mist form.

As someone who plays a 25k health, 10k armor NB and thicc magDK, undeath is much more effective in giving my NB a last ditch chance to survive. Vamp 3 vs 2 is drastically more obvious on this character.

My magDK doesn't get bursted down low enough to even require undeath. Vast majority of the time I don't even reach the bottom unless I'm already taking enough damage from enough sources that I'm dead anyway.

Having said all that, undeath mostly benefits characters with 25k resistances with a big burst heal.

Well, I laid out my argument with math and you used an anecdote about your Nb and how it "feels" to you. People reading can decide which seems more credible.
Bu just for the record I also have a glass cannon 25K health NB and I can tell absolutely zero difference between how quickly I get killed at stage 2 and 3. Because as the math demonstrates by the time the mitigation reaches a significant amount my health is so low numerically a single spammable from the average PvP build still does enough damage to get the kill.

Just because you state a bunch of numbers does not mean you're doing math.

It doesn't matter how much health you have life if you have access to a burst heal that can fill you up in one or two hits.

It doesn't matter how much health you gave left if you have successfully escape with streak or cloak.

In any situation, undeath is useful to give you one last GCD to heal, flee or kill your enemy. That's it. It's more beneficial for lower armor/health characters who would die in one or two hits without it.

A magDK with 5k health left is in a massively better place than a nightblade or sorc with 2k health left. A magDK can survive lots of incoming damage without undeath. A NB gets one shotted by a dawnbreaker without undeath.

Let's look at two examples. A magDK has 33k health. A NB has 23k.

In order for undeath to fully kick in either, you have to reduce them to 0. Let's back that to to 1k.

For the magDK to fall to 1k health, it takes a massive amount of incoming damage. During that time, they have access to the best burst heal and the best defensive AND offensive ultimate in the game. They are also very likely running mist form unless one bar. Because of this they are rarely running so low on health to proc undeath very often.

Now take the NB. Crappy burst heal. Very low armor. Low health. Every time they take damage, undeath is kicking in to some degree. They walk into a dawnbreaker, undeath is the only thing saving them. Same if they get caught in a DC or any other sudden burst damaging effect. A NB is always relying on undeath to overcome their limited toolkit for survivability.

So the magDK does not rely on undeath as often as the nightblade, and whether or not you knock a magDK to 10k health or 5k doesn't matter much when they can heal and pop an ultimate that completely negates all that damage.

twing1_ · July 2022

Yall are arguing about two different opinions on when undeath is more helpful, and the fact of the matter is that it is subjective to your play style.

Here are the objective facts.

1. Undeath provides the same benefit, no matter what build you are playing. If you are at the health threshold when it mitigates 10% damage, it will do just that: mitigate 10% of the damage that you would normally take. Because a character with higher resistances/mitigation already takes less damage, 10% of this value is going to be smaller than 10% of the damage a squishier character would take from the same attack. However, even on the squishier character, undeath in this scenario will mitigate exactly 10% of the damage they would have taken without it. Relativity does not play into undeath's effectiveness.

2. Different classes and builds make use of undeath in different ways. Squishier builds that need to stay at capped health in order to survive use undeath as an extra last bit of mitigation to avoid getting 1-shotted and to give them a last-ditch effort to survive and heal back up to full health. In this sense the "relative mitigation" provided by undeath is greater than that on a tankier build, but the practical usage of it doesn't last beyond the few seconds while this character's health is low. On tankier builds that are able to survive for longer at lower health thresholds, undeath kicks in as a more sustained source of mitigation to reduce damage taken over longer amounts of time. The "relative mitigation" provided by undeath is not as potent as that on a squishier build, but oftentimes tankier characters are able to have higher effective uptime on undeath because they are able to remain at lower health thresholds for longer, thereby increasing the total amount of damage mitigated by it. Whichever scenario you see more helpfulness out of undeath is completely subjective, and there is no sense in arguing it. It is helpful in both scenarios, it is purely a matter of personal preference, and personal preferences cannot be debated.

Lets move on.