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I'm not a fan of the "To be continued..." stories and quests we are seeing more in chapters
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phantasmalD✭✭✭✭✭
Sir Cadwell? Don't you mean Elsweyr then? Cadwell doesn't appear during the Daedric Triad storyline, iirc.Granted, I think the Morrowind/CWC/Summerset storylines are my favorites though I did enjoy running with Sir Cadell again in his stories.@spartaxoxo
I would carve out Clockwork City from Morrowind in your list.
Yes, to fans who played the single player version of Morrowind, there's a clear connection there but for those who haven't it's a somewhat related but also a completely different thing. It's not a continuation of the ESO Morrowind story as is the case for the chapters starting with Elsweyr.
True it is not a continuation like we see with the Year Long Story model, but there is a thread that connects Morrowind, CWC, and Summerset as I stated earlier.
Not being in the same light does not mean it is not there. It is also what led to the continued story.
I'm aware of the connection but that was a different type of connection. All three of those, Morrowind, Clockwork City and Summerset were self contained in the same way that vanilla zone quest themes are self contained.
Those 5 vanilla zones that we were all meant to level through were also connected thematically while having self contained zone stories in addition to the continuation of the main alliance story arc running through them. The vampire clan war theme in Rivenspire ended in Rivenspire.
The year long stories are different. The chapter and fall DLC don't just connect thematically they instead serve as two halves of the same story. That's a significant difference in my mind.
They are more like splitting Rivenspire into two zones and telling act one of the vampire storyline in one zone and then continuing with act 2 in the next zone.
The DLCs under the current model are far more self-contained than the Daedric Triad chapters or the base game zones.
Summerset is quite literally a sequel to CWC, which is in turn a sequel to Morrowind. The story falls apart if you do them out of order,since the latter half of Summerset is quite literally the end of the Triad pact.
Nocturne betrays her allies which means that the events of Morrowind or CWC wouldn't happen anymore.
The same is not true for the Q4 DLCs under the current model. There are close to 0 references to the events of the chapter if you have not done it yet.
They are actually standalone stories with a shared theme and central antagonist.For example, Greymoor story: none of the notable NPCs, like Lyris or Fennorian appear in the Reach until after you've finished the main storyline. Rada appears briefly but his plan in Markarth is not directly related to his plan in Western Skyrim; which is creating a safe haven vs resurrecting his old army.
Nothing necessitates finishing WS before the Reach, tho the story does flow better if you do them in release order. But the events still make sense if reversed.
The conclusion of the story requires both parts to be finished. You can't just do Markarth, kill Rada and then encounter him in WS; you have to do both parts before you can fight him.
Compare that to Summerset: you can do them out of order, but Morrowind will no longer have a reason to happen, as the Triad disbands. The defeat of Nocturnal is a central, integral part of Summerset, not something that requires finishing Morrowind first. Without the Triad Clavicus Vile has no reason to steal Vivec's power and/or the story ends with no conclusion.The year long stories are different. The chapter and fall DLC don't just connect thematically they instead serve as two halves of the same story. That's a significant difference in my mind.
They are more like splitting Rivenspire into two zones and telling act one of the vampire storyline in one zone and then continuing with act 2 in the next zone.
You are right that they are like two parts of the same story, but not in a 'part 1 - part 2' format, but like as a coin, two faces of the same grand adventure; there's no strict chronological order between them.
(Tbh I haven't done Blackwood yet, so don't know how that one holds up)
And tbh, Rivenspire's story IS split into two, or rather, three parts:Part 1 - retaking Shornhelm and killing the Reezal-Jul.Sure, it takes part entirely within Rivenspire, but it's still split into some very well defined parts. And at that point there's very little difference between it all taking place in one region or having a second one dedicated to it.
Part 2 - retaking Northpoint and killing Montclair's daughter.
Part 3: storming Doomcrag and killing Montclair.
Also, not all base stories are so well contained. Been years since I've done it, but iirc like 60% of AD's storyline is about Ayreen's family troubles, with a clear progression of events. Or the storyline of EP is about recovering old artifacts that all make a return in the final zone.
Not to say that I don't have a bone to pick with the current system. But my issue is not that the story is told over multiple installments, but how formulaic it is (always 4 quarters, 2x 2x dungeons, 1 chapter, 1 story dlc) and the lack of change in scenery ( many identical assets).
I realize that that's partially why they settled on this release model, less 3D art and other assets are required, but at least a change culture would be neat. Although I guess the Deadlands did deliver in that aspect, somewhat, with Fargrave.
The stories have been written years ago, they are like 1-2 years ahead of us in terms of content, they are most likely finishing up the plot for the 2024 storyline right about now. If they still had yet to write the story then they would be holding up the artists and encounter designers whose work relies on the story.It seems like a genius idea to split the story up across the year so they can see any complaints/compliments to the story and focus on those things for when the story is fully finished. With how much the devs read the forums/get reports from the CMs it seems like that may be something that happens.
Unlikely that any forum post will have a major effect on this year's content.3 -
TiaFrye✭✭✭✭✭
✭You know I'm okay with it because at least you can follow the stories in ESO...
In the two other popular MMO's you have these convoluted stories and only obsessive devotee's of Zamil Ahktar or Adinath Jayadhar could comprehend these weird ass boring tales.
In ESO I am a wandering sell sword and there are times I am part of an adventuring company....I'm not a god or the savior of all sentient life on Nirn. It's simple and fun.
It's The Black Company
It's Conan and Sobotai
It's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Tell them to never change please.
With due respect, you can't pretend you're just a sell sword after you've beaten 3 gods already. For older players and their characters this year's story is a child's play. It started in Greymoor when the bad guy decided it's a good decision to insult the very hero who sliced the very Molag Bal he opposes in half. It's hilarious to traverse High Isle story and listen to people who think of themselves as powerful being ultimately the most powerful 'mortal' on Tamriel currently. And - by some reason - not being able to instantly solve everyone's problems while you technically can. Your very presence on the Island should have ended any problem because bad guys should've *** their pants and ran.
With you being less known by default Orsinium worked. Now it's not the same.
And for story to be not that hilarious it should be longer, longer to be able to acknowledge your various accomplishments at this point and probably take a more believable path. Right now? Every year long story is written with new players in mind and honesty sometimes the way NPCs try to babysit the hero is insulting.7 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In terms of the Vestige's power level and that shaping storylines, the Vestige has been generally dealing with insane world ending levels of threat as appropriate to their current power level. In lore it's also important to remember that a lot of the Vestige's greatest feats are accomplished with the help of artifacts and allies. So enemies may give too much weigh to those factors.Rada-al Saran had previously dueled Leki to a draw. That is also an insane feat. He had no real reason to fear the Vestige. The reason he was so easy to beat is because Overland was designed to be easy to beat, not because he was canonically significantly weaker than the Vestige. In lore, he was a tough battle and gave two very powerful people a run for their money.Edited by spartaxoxo on June 22, 2022 1:45PM0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm aware of the connection but that was a different type of connection. All three of those, Morrowind, Clockwork City and Summerset were self contained in the same way that vanilla zone quest themes are self contained.
They are not. Like all of the current projects too, they do try to make the story parts stand on their own. But each part of the Daedric Triad storyline directly builds off the previous events. They share far more than just a theme. They share characters, events, buildup, etc. In fact, some of the newer stories are less interconnected than Triad storyline was because they wait to tie them together until you've beaten the main story of both zones.Edited by spartaxoxo on June 22, 2022 1:58PM3 -
TiaFrye✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »A lot of the Vestige's greatest feats in lore are accomplished with the help of artifacts and allies. Rada-al Saran had previously dueled Leki to a draw. That is also an insane feat.
The fact that Vestige can solo him up until the pont he turns into vampire lord and an ally with a mechanic joins the fight makes one think. Yes, technically Lyris is present during phase one but honestly? Vestige still can't be killed for good unless special means are involved. It's not a mechanic, it's said out loud in a story quest, one of the few that not ignoring main character's origin in Coldharbour. I bet they do regret that origin every time they have to write a new chapter now.5 -
TiaFrye✭✭✭✭✭
✭That is said: because now focus is on 'play in any order' and not continued storytelling some characters who's death should technically move you doesn't work. Because you had no time to get to know them better, especially in chapters. DLCs MQs are usually more solid. You don't care about new characters enough for death or betrayal to work. That's why people ask for old ones to return. And usually they are, but given secondary roles and basically do nothing to affect the story in any meaningful way. So you get expendables you don't care about and not enough times with your old time associates. That brews disapointment.3 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭Off topic but I wish Summerset got another zone/dlc set there to explore. With a story set around high elf politics instead of daedric invasion.2 -
Myreth✭✭I normally just lurk but this is one that really does bug me. I don't have a problem with multi-part stories on their own--it's the format itself that's frustrating. It seems very limiting to have to fit every story into independent A- and B-plots that can take place in any order and only converge at the very end.
It didn't bother me with the Daedric Triad arc because Morrowind-CWC-Summerset felt like an actual trilogy--full stories in their own right with hints along the way that something bigger was going on (sure, you could do them out of release order, but the narrative doesn't make as much sense). To me the yearlong story feels more like two disjointed first acts followed by a rushed final act.
I guess it just really got to me with High Isle. There are a handful of elements that intersect with the MQ (pirates, volcano, funky magical constructs wandering around, all the weirdness with Amenos, etc etc) that feel like they should be important, and yet with the possible exception of the volcano, they're just left as loose ends that feel underutilized by the plot. Presumably because drawing attention to them would step on the Q4 DLC story's toes. So elements that could be used to build up tension and intrigue right about now are swept under the rug instead.
I know it's a preference thing at the end of the day and if it works for you, it works for you. I cannot say it works for me.5 -
phantasmalD✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »A lot of the Vestige's greatest feats in lore are accomplished with the help of artifacts and allies. Rada-al Saran had previously dueled Leki to a draw. That is also an insane feat.
The fact that Vestige can solo him up until the pont he turns into vampire lord and an ally with a mechanic joins the fight makes one think. Yes, technically Lyris is present during phase one but honestly? Vestige still can't be killed for good unless special means are involved. It's not a mechanic, it's said out loud in a story quest, one of the few that not ignoring main character's origin in Coldharbour. I bet they do regret that origin every time they have to write a new chapter now.
A daedric scamp is also functionally immortal (for the exact reason as the Vestige). Somehow that doesn't make it an equal opponents of a god.
Sure, the Vestige canonically defeats Molag Bal, but it requires an aedric artifact, a willing sacrifice, the meddlings of another daedra and some of the most powerful magic users of current Tamriel and months of preparation. It was a group effort.
And it's not even what stops the Planemeld, that's on Vanus and Meridia.
ZoS has been pretty careful as to not put the Vestige on equal footing with gods. Whenever you beat a Daedric Prince it's always thanks to an aedric/daedric MacGuffin and an ensemble of adventures and strong magick users.2 -
TiaFrye✭✭✭✭✭
✭phantasmalD wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »A lot of the Vestige's greatest feats in lore are accomplished with the help of artifacts and allies. Rada-al Saran had previously dueled Leki to a draw. That is also an insane feat.
The fact that Vestige can solo him up until the pont he turns into vampire lord and an ally with a mechanic joins the fight makes one think. Yes, technically Lyris is present during phase one but honestly? Vestige still can't be killed for good unless special means are involved. It's not a mechanic, it's said out loud in a story quest, one of the few that not ignoring main character's origin in Coldharbour. I bet they do regret that origin every time they have to write a new chapter now.
A daedric scamp is also functionally immortal (for the exact reason as the Vestige). Somehow that doesn't make it an equal opponents of a god.
Sure, the Vestige canonically defeats Molag Bal, but it requires an aedric artifact, a willing sacrifice, the meddlings of another daedra and some of the most powerful magic users of current Tamriel and months of preparation. It was a group effort.
And it's not even what stops the Planemeld, that's on Vanus and Meridia.
ZoS has been pretty careful as to not put the Vestige on equal footing with gods. Whenever you beat a Daedric Prince it's always thanks to an aedric/daedric MacGuffin and an ensemble of adventures and strong magick users.
Vestige can resurrect instantly on place without coming back to their plane of origin and it's again mentioned in a lore book. Devs themselves made basegame story this way and it's now an inconvenience to inclusivity of supposed roleplay because - you guessed it - not every player even want 19 Vestiges on their account. But ignoring it still doesn't help, it hurts the logic of a lot of post-Summerset stories. Hell, there's still bunch of clues in pre-Summerset stories, mainly the basegame that protagonist is something more than a coincidence rescue from Companions. Lots of Dark Anchors dialogue suggest that Molag Bal is pleased and has future plans on you.
But what's the problem? Marketing and managers. They demand new players and everything up from Elsweyr is done to draw the new players in and the ones who stay usually - you guessed it - completely confused start the search for correct timeline themselves.
None benefits from year long stories but the company. It's less assets to produce, it's one story to write and cut it in half instead of spending the manpower they have to intertwine independent stories together in meaningful way. It can be marketed as start from wherever you want and not to scare a potential customer with the need to do hella lot of content to be on point with everyone else. And when they realise they actually need to do that money is already paid.Edited by TiaFrye on June 22, 2022 3:36PM5 -
DagenHawk✭✭✭✭✭You know I'm okay with it because at least you can follow the stories in ESO...
In the two other popular MMO's you have these convoluted stories and only obsessive devotee's of Zamil Ahktar or Adinath Jayadhar could comprehend these weird ass boring tales.
In ESO I am a wandering sell sword and there are times I am part of an adventuring company....I'm not a god or the savior of all sentient life on Nirn. It's simple and fun.
It's The Black Company
It's Conan and Sobotai
It's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Tell them to never change please.
With due respect, you can't pretend you're just a sell sword after you've beaten 3 gods already. For older players and their characters this year's story is a child's play. It started in Greymoor when the bad guy decided it's a good decision to insult the very hero who sliced the very Molag Bal he opposes in half. It's hilarious to traverse High Isle story and listen to people who think of themselves as powerful being ultimately the most powerful 'mortal' on Tamriel currently. And - by some reason - not being able to instantly solve everyone's problems while you technically can. Your very presence on the Island should have ended any problem because bad guys should've *** their pants and ran.
With you being less known by default Orsinium worked. Now it's not the same.
And for story to be not that hilarious it should be longer, longer to be able to acknowledge your various accomplishments at this point and probably take a more believable path. Right now? Every year long story is written with new players in mind and honesty sometimes the way NPCs try to babysit the hero is insulting.
I see you never have read classic sword and sorcery...look no matter what I tell you...you're going to have this attitude.
Lets just say we disagree and move on.Edited by DagenHawk on June 22, 2022 3:44PM0 -
TiaFrye✭✭✭✭✭
✭You know I'm okay with it because at least you can follow the stories in ESO...
In the two other popular MMO's you have these convoluted stories and only obsessive devotee's of Zamil Ahktar or Adinath Jayadhar could comprehend these weird ass boring tales.
In ESO I am a wandering sell sword and there are times I am part of an adventuring company....I'm not a god or the savior of all sentient life on Nirn. It's simple and fun.
It's The Black Company
It's Conan and Sobotai
It's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Tell them to never change please.
With due respect, you can't pretend you're just a sell sword after you've beaten 3 gods already. For older players and their characters this year's story is a child's play. It started in Greymoor when the bad guy decided it's a good decision to insult the very hero who sliced the very Molag Bal he opposes in half. It's hilarious to traverse High Isle story and listen to people who think of themselves as powerful being ultimately the most powerful 'mortal' on Tamriel currently. And - by some reason - not being able to instantly solve everyone's problems while you technically can. Your very presence on the Island should have ended any problem because bad guys should've *** their pants and ran.
With you being less known by default Orsinium worked. Now it's not the same.
And for story to be not that hilarious it should be longer, longer to be able to acknowledge your various accomplishments at this point and probably take a more believable path. Right now? Every year long story is written with new players in mind and honesty sometimes the way NPCs try to babysit the hero is insulting.
I see you never have read classic sword and sorcery...look no matter what I tell you...you're going to have this attitude.
Forgive me if not everyone shares your jaded bitterness.
None taken. If the story was different from the start, more Daggerfall-like, there would've been no bitterness whatsoever. As I said in my later post no one wants 19 Giga Chad Vestiges on their account but the start of the story was done in Oblivion-like way and doubled in Skyrim-way by making you super-unique entity from quest one. Shying away from that and try to pretend it's not here won't change that. Some players just find that stilly. I would gladly make a sell sword character who takes a quest for gold from and old lady to end up saving the king in the end but again, there's base game main quest and devs no matter what can't hide it from any player forever.
No need to drive to conclusions of what I've read and no based on my experience with ESO from 2014 and being here for this game when 'classic Elder Scrolls enjoyers' pretended it doesn't exist.Edited by TiaFrye on June 22, 2022 3:54PM5 -
Northwold✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.You know I'm okay with it because at least you can follow the stories in ESO...
In the two other popular MMO's you have these convoluted stories and only obsessive devotee's of Zamil Ahktar or Adinath Jayadhar could comprehend these weird ass boring tales.
In ESO I am a wandering sell sword and there are times I am part of an adventuring company....I'm not a god or the savior of all sentient life on Nirn. It's simple and fun.
It's The Black Company
It's Conan and Sobotai
It's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Tell them to never change please.
With due respect, you can't pretend you're just a sell sword after you've beaten 3 gods already. For older players and their characters this year's story is a child's play. It started in Greymoor when the bad guy decided it's a good decision to insult the very hero who sliced the very Molag Bal he opposes in half. It's hilarious to traverse High Isle story and listen to people who think of themselves as powerful being ultimately the most powerful 'mortal' on Tamriel currently. And - by some reason - not being able to instantly solve everyone's problems while you technically can. Your very presence on the Island should have ended any problem because bad guys should've *** their pants and ran.
With you being less known by default Orsinium worked. Now it's not the same.
And for story to be not that hilarious it should be longer, longer to be able to acknowledge your various accomplishments at this point and probably take a more believable path. Right now? Every year long story is written with new players in mind and honesty sometimes the way NPCs try to babysit the hero is insulting.
I see you never have read classic sword and sorcery...look no matter what I tell you...you're going to have this attitude.
Forgive me if not everyone shares your jaded bitterness.
None taken. If the story was different from the start, more Daggerfall-like, there would've been no bitterness whatsoever. As I said in my later post no one wants 19 Giga Chad Vestiges on their account but the start of the story was done in Oblivion-like way and doubled in Skyrim-way by making you super-unique entity from quest one. Shying away from that and try to pretend it's not here won't change that. Some players just find that stilly. I would gladly make a sell sword character who takes a quest for gold from and old lady to end up saving the king in the end but again, there's base game main quest and devs no matter what can't hide it from any player forever.
No need to drive to conclusions of what I've read and no based on my experience with ESO from 2014 and being here for this game when 'classic Elder Scrolls enjoyers' pretended it doesn't exist.
Does present a potentially interesting avenue for a future chapter, though, in which the player finds all their powers wiped and the objective is to exit that predicament. Trouble is, in ESO they'd do that with Sheogorath. Who is rather overexposed at this point.Edited by Northwold on June 22, 2022 4:07PM3 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@spartaxoxo
I would carve out Clockwork City from Morrowind in your list.
Yes, to fans who played the single player version of Morrowind, there's a clear connection there but for those who haven't it's a somewhat related but also a completely different thing. It's not a continuation of the ESO Morrowind story as is the case for the chapters starting with Elsweyr.
True it is not a continuation like we see with the Year Long Story model, but there is a thread that connects Morrowind, CWC, and Summerset as I stated earlier.
Not being in the same light does not mean it is not there. It is also what led to the continued story.
I'm aware of the connection but that was a different type of connection. All three of those, Morrowind, Clockwork City and Summerset were self contained in the same way that vanilla zone quest themes are self contained.
Those 5 vanilla zones that we were all meant to level through were also connected thematically while having self contained zone stories in addition to the continuation of the main alliance story arc running through them. The vampire clan war theme in Rivenspire ended in Rivenspire.
The year long stories are different. The chapter and fall DLC don't just connect thematically they instead serve as two halves of the same story. That's a significant difference in my mind.
They are more like splitting Rivenspire into two zones and telling act one of the vampire storyline in one zone and then continuing with act 2 in the next zone.
So if they made the connection less obvious then it would be ok with you even though you would still know they were connected?0 -
LikiLoki✭✭✭✭✭You know, I would like that when the new chapter of the annual history begins, the assistant said: look, I wrote a diary of our exploits at the last location. And then I will be able to read and remember the details of past quests, and I will receive a copy of this book and other chronicles of my exploits in other locations and factions in the Magicians Guild store and put these chronicles in my house. The books will be available for sale after completing the quest chains. Do you understand? I want to reread the history of my character's main exploits, I want to put them on the shelf.4 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@spartaxoxo
I would carve out Clockwork City from Morrowind in your list.
Yes, to fans who played the single player version of Morrowind, there's a clear connection there but for those who haven't it's a somewhat related but also a completely different thing. It's not a continuation of the ESO Morrowind story as is the case for the chapters starting with Elsweyr.
True it is not a continuation like we see with the Year Long Story model, but there is a thread that connects Morrowind, CWC, and Summerset as I stated earlier.
Not being in the same light does not mean it is not there. It is also what led to the continued story.
I'm aware of the connection but that was a different type of connection. All three of those, Morrowind, Clockwork City and Summerset were self contained in the same way that vanilla zone quest themes are self contained.
Those 5 vanilla zones that we were all meant to level through were also connected thematically while having self contained zone stories in addition to the continuation of the main alliance story arc running through them. The vampire clan war theme in Rivenspire ended in Rivenspire.
The year long stories are different. The chapter and fall DLC don't just connect thematically they instead serve as two halves of the same story. That's a significant difference in my mind.
They are more like splitting Rivenspire into two zones and telling act one of the vampire storyline in one zone and then continuing with act 2 in the next zone.
So if they made the connection less obvious then it would be ok with you even though you would still know they were connected?
No that's not it and you're trying to put words in my mouth. I've been very clear that what I prefer is that the chapters have a story with a satisfying real ending in the chapter. Whether it ties strongly or weakly thematically to the rest of the ESO stories or not is irrelevant.
Someone brought up WOW and their convoluted continuing story arcs that last 2 years to tell. That has always been a big part of WOW's player retention schtick which, even though I'm not a fan of it I can at least understand as a business strategy in a game that can only be played with a sub.
In ESO, especially post One Tamriel with the "go anywhere, do anything" focus it makes zero sense to leave you literally hanging with respect to the two main themes within High Isle itself.The High Isle chapter doesn't conclude the peace talks nor the local intrigue between the Steadfast and Ascendant. Anyone playing the game here as a "go anywhere do anything" player will notice that lack of resolution as an obvious "stay tuned" that feels more like a business decision than a good story telling device.8 -
phantasmalD✭✭✭✭✭
Which one? Citation needed.
Vestige can resurrect instantly on place without coming back to their plane of origin and it's again mentioned in a lore book.Devs themselves made basegame story this way and it's now an inconvenience to inclusivity of supposed roleplay because - you guessed it - not every player even want 19 Vestiges on their account. But ignoring it still doesn't help, it hurts the logic of a lot of post-Summerset stories. Hell, there's still bunch of clues in pre-Summerset stories, mainly the basegame that protagonist is something more than a coincidence rescue from Companions.
I mean roleplaying always requires a bit of suspension of disbelief and player input/imagination.
Especially in more thoroughly crafted RPGs. A good example is dialogue options. Just because you can ask something doesn't mean that your character would.
You can ignore any quest, dialogue and even outlandish mechanics. It doesn't have to exist from your character's point of view.
I do wish they would stop forcing the Planemeld MQ on people tho, it's silly that you can't delete the questline from your journal.
Well, Dark Anchor dialogues all happen during the Planemeld, at which point he does have a well known plan for you. It's called subjugation.Lots of Dark Anchors dialogue suggest that Molag Bal is pleased and has future plans on you.
But yeah, Molag Bal is the Prince of Domination, which means more than just him wanting to rule everything. It also means that he likes strong individual who can dominate others (even if those others are his minions). In a way he respects free will more than Meridia, the supposed good daedra.
So he'd probably try to make use of any strong individual. Just like How he used Aelif or Mannimarco.The High Isle chapter doesn't conclude the peace talksI mean, realistically speaking, I'd not expect them to conclude for months, if not for years.
Such things take a long time. Lots of arguments over every little details.
The only resolution I expect is "Well, we tried, but it went nowhere and we shelved diplomacy indefinitely."
Essentially returning to the status quo.1 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭phantasmalD wrote: »The High Isle chapter doesn't conclude the peace talksI mean, realistically speaking, I'd not expect them to conclude for months, if not for years.
Such things take a long time. Lots of arguments over every little details.
The only resolution I expect is "Well, we tried, but it went nowhere and we shelved diplomacy indefinitely."
Essentially returning to the status quo.Realistically speaking "we tried" was always going to be the outcome unless ZOS is ready to do a totalt rework of all zone beachheads from other alliances and all quests that reference the war AND get rid of Cyrodiil PvP.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@spartaxoxo
I would carve out Clockwork City from Morrowind in your list.
Yes, to fans who played the single player version of Morrowind, there's a clear connection there but for those who haven't it's a somewhat related but also a completely different thing. It's not a continuation of the ESO Morrowind story as is the case for the chapters starting with Elsweyr.
True it is not a continuation like we see with the Year Long Story model, but there is a thread that connects Morrowind, CWC, and Summerset as I stated earlier.
Not being in the same light does not mean it is not there. It is also what led to the continued story.
I'm aware of the connection but that was a different type of connection. All three of those, Morrowind, Clockwork City and Summerset were self contained in the same way that vanilla zone quest themes are self contained.
Those 5 vanilla zones that we were all meant to level through were also connected thematically while having self contained zone stories in addition to the continuation of the main alliance story arc running through them. The vampire clan war theme in Rivenspire ended in Rivenspire.
The year long stories are different. The chapter and fall DLC don't just connect thematically they instead serve as two halves of the same story. That's a significant difference in my mind.
They are more like splitting Rivenspire into two zones and telling act one of the vampire storyline in one zone and then continuing with act 2 in the next zone.
So if they made the connection less obvious then it would be ok with you even though you would still know they were connected?
No that's not it and you're trying to put words in my mouth. I've been very clear that what I prefer is that the chapters have a story with a satisfying real ending in the chapter. Whether it ties strongly or weakly thematically to the rest of the ESO stories or not is irrelevant.
Someone brought up WOW and their convoluted continuing story arcs that last 2 years to tell. That has always been a big part of WOW's player retention schtick which, even though I'm not a fan of it I can at least understand as a business strategy in a game that can only be played with a sub.
In ESO, especially post One Tamriel with the "go anywhere, do anything" focus it makes zero sense to leave you literally hanging with respect to the two main themes within High Isle itself.The High Isle chapter doesn't conclude the peace talks nor the local intrigue between the Steadfast and Ascendant. Anyone playing the game here as a "go anywhere do anything" player will notice that lack of resolution as an obvious "stay tuned" that feels more like a business decision than a good story telling device.
Thank you for answering my simple question though I will note that asking a question is not putting words into the mouth of another. I asked the question as it seems to be a reasonable continuation of the post you quoted and your reply.
I was interested in how fine of a line you were considering to be a continuation that you did not desire vs one that was obvious since you noted there was a difference between the obvious continuation we have now vs the Morrowind/CWC/Summerset line. I was just wondering if that was ok or still not ok for your taste.
I respect you want someone shorter and more concise, I prefer a more in-depth look at stories. Heck, I would even prefer if they did this over three-zone DLCs rather than 2 and have 2 dungeons. But we clearly differ in opinions concerning this and sorry to inform you that this current scheme will likely continue.
Also, the quests are storytelling. So Zenimax is in the business of storytelling.0 -
TiaFrye✭✭✭✭✭
✭phantasmalD wrote: »
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_PlasmThis shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.
You're welcome. This is a manual on the Soul Shriven the Vestige is and along with description in quote and attunement to Nirn provided by Varen the player character is more powerful and convenient for themselves than any classic daedra would be.phantasmalD wrote: »I do wish they would stop forcing the Planemeld MQ on people tho, it's silly that you can't delete the questline from your journal.
By doing that they will erase completely - they try, really hard, every new year long story they try to bury it even deeper under more shiny content - the experience we, original basegame players had, player who harbor our main characters from the very beginning and we, who came to this game and supported it for many years. When the only thing we ask is for our characters to be acknowledged by the setting. You say "roleplaying always requires a bit of suspension of disbelief and player input/imagination". You can imagine there's no such a quest and be fine for all the content that comes your way. While I - in place of my character - was treated like a noname for two chapters straight after being a loyal player for more than 8 years. There are legit people who will legit hate you for having canon Vestige who does all the content and feel threatened by the sole existence of the basegame MQ, please don't feed them with such a things.Edited by TiaFrye on June 22, 2022 6:58PM1 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I was interested in how fine of a line you were considering to be a continuation that you did not desire vs one that was obvious since you noted there was a difference between the obvious continuation we have now vs the Morrowind/CWC/Summerset line. I was just wondering if that was ok or still not ok for your taste.
That difference to me is all about how it feels to do those zones in isolation from other content. A new player could go to Morrowind, Clockwork City or Summerset as their first and only zone from that trilogy and will feel that they got a complete zone story.
Sure they will be missing context but the resolution of the zone's issues will nevertheless feel satisfactory.
I brought up Rivenspire because it's a zone story that IMO is one of the top ones in the vanilla game right up there with the Greenshade Wilderking one.
Prior to One Tamriel I was almost exclusively an Aldmeri Dominion player. I had gone through Rivenspire only once with my main as part of Cadwell's Gold but its zone story had stuck with me.
After One Tamriel I went there mostly to farm Necropotence for my pet sorc and magden but I ended up completing the full zone quest line with multiple characters over time. It's the only zone not in AD that I have done that with and will probably do it again soon since I haven't done that for a couple of years and I like it that much.
I don't need to do all Covenant zones despite their thematic connection to get what I want out of Rivenspire. Does that clarify what I mean by "self contained" story resolutions?Edited by Iselin on June 22, 2022 7:09PM2 -
phantasmalD✭✭✭✭✭
That doesn't actually state that "Vestige can resurrect instantly on place without coming back to their plane of origin". It merely states that hypothetically a highly anuic vestige would resurrect much faster than a common daedra. Does not say that the Vestige can canonically do it anywhere. It actually specifically states that the vestige would still have to make contact with Azure Plasm ["Padomaic creatia"].phantasmalD wrote: »
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_PlasmThis shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.
You're welcome. This is a manual on the Soul Shriven the Vestige is and along with description in quote and attunement to Nirn provided by Varen the player character is more powerful and convenient for themselves than any classic daedra would be.
Unless Soul Gems are secretly crystalized Azure Plasm, we don't even use Plasm to res, so that already contradicts the book.You can imagine there's no such a quest and be fine for all the content that comes your way.
And you can imagine the opposite just as well.
Anyway, recurring characters never treat you like a noname, if you've met them before. And there's that radiant NPC commentary system, where any NPC can randomly address you, bringing up one of your old adventures (' Thank God you were there to stop Alexander Conele from capturing the Coral Heart.', etc.). So even if Random Peasant #98 doesn't bow down before your magnificent presence, you can still feel like a well-known person as there is a rudimentary reputation system.
I think it highly unrealistic to expect everyone to know who the Vestige is ( If I met the Queen of Denmark or the Pope tomorrow I'd probably not recognize them or even care, even though they are supposed to be Big Deal ) and I personally don't crave to be center of the universe. I think the whole 'chosen one' thing is pretty cringe.
This is like a big difference in mentality between us, so don't think we are ever gonna agree.phantasmalD wrote: »The High Isle chapter doesn't conclude the peace talksI mean, realistically speaking, I'd not expect them to conclude for months, if not for years.
Such things take a long time. Lots of arguments over every little details.
The only resolution I expect is "Well, we tried, but it went nowhere and we shelved diplomacy indefinitely."
Essentially returning to the status quo.Realistically speaking "we tried" was always going to be the outcome unless ZOS is ready to do a totalt rework of all zone beachheads from other alliances and all quests that reference the war AND get rid of Cyrodiil PvP.In other words, not in a million years.
It'd ultimately be pretty pointless story beat anyway tbh. Until someone can establish a strong empire and light the dragonfires, there won't be peace on Tamriel. New Kings and warlords will be born with new ambitions, starting new wars. And the deadra will keep being daedraEdited by phantasmalD on June 22, 2022 8:26PM0 -
TiaFrye✭✭✭✭✭
✭phantasmalD wrote: »
That doesn't actually state that "Vestige can resurrect instantly on place without coming back to their plane of origin". It merely states that hypothetically a highly anuic vestige would resurrect much faster than a common daedra. Does not say that the Vestige can canonically do it anywhere. It actually specifically states that the vestige would still have to make contact with Azure Plasm ["Padomaic creatia"].phantasmalD wrote: »
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_PlasmThis shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.
You're welcome. This is a manual on the Soul Shriven the Vestige is and along with description in quote and attunement to Nirn provided by Varen the player character is more powerful and convenient for themselves than any classic daedra would be.
Unless Soul Gems are secretly crystalized Azure Plasm, we don't even use Plasm to res, so that already contradicts the book
How Soul Shriven, who are made from plazm, work described in the book. Your player character happen to be the soul shriven made of plazm and does exactly what stated under "a highly anuic vestige". Again, you chose to ignore that because that doesn't suit your gameplay, I choose to accept the fact because it suits mine.
I barely point out that this exists in game and some players accept it only to be ignored by the game in that part after Summerset.
One thing is having small conversations with secondary (for the current story) recurring characters and completely other is say, having Rada proposing an alliance because he knows that you're the one who stabbed Bal. Having new chapter bad guys act a bit more reckless because they're in distress with you on the Island. Having Merhunes Dagon remark that what you did with Bal won't work on him. But no. There will be no such a thing exactly because year long stories is just like that. They come and gone. If you're fortunate enough they will include old characters on main roles who care about you enough, spend a lot of time with you and will give you needed feeling of continuation. If you're not fortunate enough there will be Blackwood that is not about you, there will be High Isle that is not about you. No once asks to be the center of attention. Barely to be more than a sell sword if you happen to be one.Edited by TiaFrye on June 22, 2022 8:55PM1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can't speak to High Isle, as I haven't played its story yet. But, I don't think Rada al-Saran, the Dragons, or Princes should have given much thought to the power of the vestige.The Dragons have been sealed away for a long time.
Rada once dueled a god to a stalemate and is trying to defeat Molag Bal, he's not worried about mortals. Not even the Vestige.
The princes are supremely confident in their powers, as they should be. The Vestige has not defeated any of them using purely their own might, and they aren't worried about artifacts that the Vestige no longer has access to. Reasonable.
Svagrim should be aware of you but he's also been lying the entire time about everything. Tries to defeat you by throwing you off. I think his efforts to stop you with his lies speaks for itself. He also gets nervous that Rada won't fight you alongside him.
Edited by spartaxoxo on June 22, 2022 10:00PM1 -
phantasmalD✭✭✭✭✭
Again, the book doesn't specifically say that a soul shriven can freely resurrect anywhere, at anytime. They still have to make contact with Amber Plasm to be able to form a new body.phantasmalD wrote: »
That doesn't actually state that "Vestige can resurrect instantly on place without coming back to their plane of origin". It merely states that hypothetically a highly anuic vestige would resurrect much faster than a common daedra. Does not say that the Vestige can canonically do it anywhere. It actually specifically states that the vestige would still have to make contact with Azure Plasm ["Padomaic creatia"].phantasmalD wrote: »
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_PlasmThis shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.
You're welcome. This is a manual on the Soul Shriven the Vestige is and along with description in quote and attunement to Nirn provided by Varen the player character is more powerful and convenient for themselves than any classic daedra would be.
Unless Soul Gems are secretly crystalized Azure Plasm, we don't even use Plasm to res, so that already contradicts the book
How Soul Shriven, who are made from plazm, work described in the book. Your player character happen to be the soul shriven made of plazm and does exactly what stated under "a highly anuic vestige". Again, you chose to ignore that because that doesn't suit your gameplay, I choose to accept the fact because it suits mine.
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭phantasmalD wrote: »
Again, the book doesn't specifically say that a soul shriven can freely resurrect anywhere, at anytime. They still have to make contact with Amber Plasm to be able to form a new body.phantasmalD wrote: »
That doesn't actually state that "Vestige can resurrect instantly on place without coming back to their plane of origin". It merely states that hypothetically a highly anuic vestige would resurrect much faster than a common daedra. Does not say that the Vestige can canonically do it anywhere. It actually specifically states that the vestige would still have to make contact with Azure Plasm ["Padomaic creatia"].phantasmalD wrote: »
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_PlasmThis shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.
You're welcome. This is a manual on the Soul Shriven the Vestige is and along with description in quote and attunement to Nirn provided by Varen the player character is more powerful and convenient for themselves than any classic daedra would be.
Unless Soul Gems are secretly crystalized Azure Plasm, we don't even use Plasm to res, so that already contradicts the book
How Soul Shriven, who are made from plazm, work described in the book. Your player character happen to be the soul shriven made of plazm and does exactly what stated under "a highly anuic vestige". Again, you chose to ignore that because that doesn't suit your gameplay, I choose to accept the fact because it suits mine.
Regular soul shriven do, but a paragon soul shriven doesn't. Which is why they can use a soul gem or wayshrine to instantly reform. Since the reformation is instant, they don't need to return to Coldharbor to reform. Their soul already has the anuic valence and chaotic creatia needed to reform their vestige.
Edited by spartaxoxo on June 23, 2022 12:52AM0 -
TiaFrye✭✭✭✭✭
✭phantasmalD wrote: »
Again, the book doesn't specifically say that a soul shriven can freely resurrect anywhere, at anytime. They still have to make contact with Amber Plasm to be able to form a new body.phantasmalD wrote: »
That doesn't actually state that "Vestige can resurrect instantly on place without coming back to their plane of origin". It merely states that hypothetically a highly anuic vestige would resurrect much faster than a common daedra. Does not say that the Vestige can canonically do it anywhere. It actually specifically states that the vestige would still have to make contact with Azure Plasm ["Padomaic creatia"].phantasmalD wrote: »
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_PlasmThis shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.
You're welcome. This is a manual on the Soul Shriven the Vestige is and along with description in quote and attunement to Nirn provided by Varen the player character is more powerful and convenient for themselves than any classic daedra would be.
Unless Soul Gems are secretly crystalized Azure Plasm, we don't even use Plasm to res, so that already contradicts the book
How Soul Shriven, who are made from plazm, work described in the book. Your player character happen to be the soul shriven made of plazm and does exactly what stated under "a highly anuic vestige". Again, you chose to ignore that because that doesn't suit your gameplay, I choose to accept the fact because it suits mine.
Our conversation reminds me of that one guy who refused to see that Vestige's original body is dead while having a CG from first person view being sacrificed and lots of dialogue from Mannimarco about that after.
As I said numerous times at this point, we can ignore a whole bunch of stuff in our separate parallel universes, but when on a game forum some people decide to preach a fellow player on the fact this person wants to play the game the way it was meant to be played with a main character who was designed as a protagonist for this game by telling this fellow player they didn't read some books and don't understand the allure of having a sell sword Geralt of Rivia type of character only because this fellow player criticized year long story model for not having enough references and recognition of main character's past deeds? It sounds like a meme.
"Base game won't hurt you, it doesn't exist. Basegame: Soul Shriven in Coldharbour can't be deleted from your journal."
I would agree that technically the conversation about power levels is a bit pointless and one can have a bit different view on each encounter, but the fact that the Vestige is the Vestige with all the chosen one's boons they have is a fact. Last there single player TES' protagonists were chosen ones, people need to chill. Base game makes no sense in an actual good parts of itself while recognising your character as Soul Shriven soulless hero. Making main quest of the base game optional will mess up too much stuff already messed up after Elsweyr.
By all means, roleplay what you want, why someone even feel threatened by a quest which is simply at a core of everything should one decide to play by the rules?2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
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I was interested in how fine of a line you were considering to be a continuation that you did not desire vs one that was obvious since you noted there was a difference between the obvious continuation we have now vs the Morrowind/CWC/Summerset line. I was just wondering if that was ok or still not ok for your taste.
That difference to me is all about how it feels to do those zones in isolation from other content. A new player could go to Morrowind, Clockwork City or Summerset as their first and only zone from that trilogy and will feel that they got a complete zone story.
Sure they will be missing context but the resolution of the zone's issues will nevertheless feel satisfactory.
I brought up Rivenspire because it's a zone story that IMO is one of the top ones in the vanilla game right up there with the Greenshade Wilderking one.
Prior to One Tamriel I was almost exclusively an Aldmeri Dominion player. I had gone through Rivenspire only once with my main as part of Cadwell's Gold but its zone story had stuck with me.
After One Tamriel I went there mostly to farm Necropotence for my pet sorc and magden but I ended up completing the full zone quest line with multiple characters over time. It's the only zone not in AD that I have done that with and will probably do it again soon since I haven't done that for a couple of years and I like it that much.
I don't need to do all Covenant zones despite their thematic connection to get what I want out of Rivenspire. Does that clarify what I mean by "self contained" story resolutions?
Then I do not understand why you took offense to my previous question. My interpretation of what you are saying here, and previously, is that the Morrowind/CWC/Summerset stories were fine. This is why I asked the question because the connection between the main stories of each zone was much less obvious yet it still existed.
In reality, there are threads between some of these stories on the base gamer. It is why we have seen original characters reappear starting with Cadwell, IIRC. It really makes sense to have some sort of connection between stories, even if they are loosely woven together, as it shows continuity within the game.
Without level gated content, which makes for a very limiting game, one can do the stories out of order. However, with a little bit of time put in to figure out the order content was added to the game one will not go out of order. I have never played an MMORPG without doing some research on it and it behooves anyone and everyone to do the same. Yes, it is a choice but we get more out of the game if we find some stuff out about it first.
So yes, we all respect your opinion but it is clear that this format, to some degree, will be around for awhile and it is not unique to ESO.
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francesinhalover✭✭✭✭✭
✭my issue is, we pay 40-60 euros for the expansion and than get the rest of the story on a dlc that's available on eso plus.
sometimes it's awesome because it's free for expansion owners at least.I am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!0
