Is it time to increase healing penalty on battle spirit?

Mrtoobyy · May 2022

Like probably everyone who has pvp'ed since the hybrid changes have noticed that healing is way overtuned. Should I even go on about DK's? When I brought them up before the changes people denied their healing would be too strong and so on... The upcoming changes won't probably change DK's overpowered state too much.

I main a templar and really wouldn't mind if healing were redcued in PVP, the current state of the game is so... I don't know how to put it?

Sometimes I asked myself why I keep playing this game when ZOS make these weird changes to the game but sometimes I realize why I kept playing since Beta. It's such a great game in many aspects. IMAGINE if they would get PVP as close to 100% balanced as possible. MAN such a game it would be!

HonestLoverr · May 2022

No. Battlespirit needs to go. Adjustments that got made through battlespirit should be permanent adjustments in literally every content even outside of PvP. They just never get it right with it. The heavily unbalanced gameplay in PvP through battlespirit causes so many things to be op and so many things to be useless couples with cp, cyro buffs. Sets/heals/damage/% boost and debuffs/speed/etc. the current meta is a mess and Battlespirit is one of the roots of this problem.

ZOS is tried to reinvent the wheel several times now in all these years and either broke something from PvP or PvE as a result. They should just get rid of Battlespirit once and for all and rebalance/reinvent all of the stat and scaling systems instead + remove any unnessessary % modifiers left and right. CP and all the cyrodiil buffs that are in place bring the gameplay even further out of balance.

Aardappelboom · May 2022

I think the problem lies more in the fact that weapon damage and healing are one and the same component coupled with the fact that there are enough "flex skill spots" for some classes to succesfuly burst other players and stack healing. If we had to make a choice wether or not we heal more or damage more, the 50% penalty would be just fine.

I'm not a big fan of flat reductions for tweaking balance, while it is definitely a good way to tweak TTK in general it also tends to narrow the choices you can make in your build.The health regen stat is a good example, by generally nerfing it, no one invests in it, to a point that everyone runs undead passive because regen is just not worth it.

As for specific classes overperforming, they should be tackled class per class and skill per skill, the problem there is that skills get buffed and nerfed very drastically which doesn't help but DK did get a few nerfs, we'll have to see how it goes.

The truth is though, while people ask for balance, I still don't see ESO as a "broken" game. It has a steep learning curve but after playing PVP a lot there is mostly counterplay for everything and I see people running the exact same builds drastically performing differently because of a better rotation, positioning, etc... which is how I like it honestly.

Balance can always improve, obviously but there's honestly no golden formula for it when you have as many stats, sets and builds, mixed through PVP and PVE in game like ESO, they'll have to tweak everything until it feels fine. But again, if you buff something drastically and tweak something else to nerf the prior stat drastically again, you'll always end up disrupting balance in other places.

ResidentContrarian · May 2022

Healing is not the problem, you can heal for a billion hp a second and still die.

The problem is when healing meets a level that completely negates the damage you take due to damage reduction.

The problem with living dark on live, and all the other heals is that you and others either don't know or keep pretending the problem is a massive amount of damage reduction given for free with no trade-off from sets like rallying cry (basically a better transmutation in every single way), CP, vampirism, etc.

Then you get even more damage and/or defense stacking because of mythics and arena weapons.

A flat reduction to healing from battle spirit won't do anything when the problem will still exist in a relative sense, and it just means that more people will build even tankier and damage will matter less and less. It will also mean that classes or players that don't heal as much will suffer even harder and quit the game.

What needs to happen is the dev team actually needs to NERF what everyone already knows is OP in gear, CP, vamp, etc. and buff siege weapons, add a negate seige, or do something to actually add pressure outside weak player AoEs and stupid sets like plaguebreak and dark convergence that are better worn by mass amounts of tanks/healers for easy kills.

EDIT: fixed cause brain slip

Xarc · May 2022

The problem isnt heal penalty, it's heal

when you're playing on low lvl char in pvp, you do not lvlup your heals skills to rank IV immediatly and heals are OK compared to damages.

Urzigurumash · May 2022

Aardappelboom wrote: »

The health regen stat is a good example, by generally nerfing it, no one invests in it, to a point that everyone runs undead passive because regen is just not worth it.

As for specific classes overperforming, they should be tackled class per class and skill per skill, the problem there is that skills get buffed and nerfed very drastically which doesn't help but DK did get a few nerfs, we'll have to see how it goes

The state of DK is connected to the HP Regen nerf, in my opinion - Flame damage does more damage to a Vampire than any other type of damage, but still does more damage to a Mortal than a Vampire.

Anyhow yes nerf healing in Battlespirit, see where the chips land.

Will it be good, will it be bad? Nobody really knows even if they claim to. Let's see how it goes. Aboslutely nobody on this forum that I recall predicted the overpowered state of Flame Damage with the nerf to HP Regen - nearly the opposite, since DKs can stack HP Regen higher than any other class (with a full bar of Draconic Power Skills, aka DPS).

Also I don't think anybody appreciated that the nerf to HP Regen would hit Warden survivability as bad as it did - this class has no unique buffs to HP Regen, but HP Regen complemented Warden's benefits in stacking HP.

So make your predictions, they'll probably be wrong. Simple fact is Healing is really strong, and there's a simple solution in Battlespirit.

I predict it would shift the balance towards burst and away from turtling, also restoring balance and order to this forum in a move away from Nerf DK threads to our most cherished topic: "Rework Sorc"

Urzigurumash · May 2022

You make good points @ResidentContrarian and your predictions may be accurate but your list of things which require attention doesn't pay much attention to Battlegrounds. Whether you play the mode or not in the absence of CP and with balanced team sizes, identical dispositions every match, etc., some disparities can perhaps be more easily perceived there.

Damage vs Mitigation in BGs right now isn't bad at all, most players get to 5% health rather quickly compared to some prior patches, but easily bounce back in a few GCDs. So the classes with bad healing aren't necessarily hurt worse by a blanket nerf to healing, rather they could benefit more since they can get a player down to 5% more easily. (Theoretically).

No?

Mrtoobyy · May 2022

I always think of no CP as the "base" game pvp and CP is just the icing on the cake. And I mostly play BG since Cyrodil on PCEU IS such a mess.

The reason I brought up battlespirit is that I just assumed that ZOS wont rework nor change the small things. It's like milking a dead cow...

@Aardappelboom
I agree with you and would LOVE if they did A rework like that but one can only dream huh?

@Urzigurumash
Exactly! Glass cannons will be more viable cause now if they don't get an instakill they have only poked the bear with a stick. No way they can out dps the current healing now. With less healing the pressure from a "glass cannon" build may be enough to keep the enemy on retreat/defense instead of activating a heal and fighting back and win the majority of fights.

Like I said I main a templar with pretty juicy healing and good damage. No one can basically one shot me and once Im ready to fight back I usually win. If I put vigor backbar I outheal 80% of the damage thrown at me. I only have minor mending, imagine if I had major mending AND minor vitality in my class kit.

Sandman929 · May 2022

No, but it's way past time to address stacking 10 of the same heal

Four_Fingers · May 2022

As long as damage gets reduced as well.
And if healing doesn't stack neither should damage stack.

Urzigurumash · May 2022

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

@Urzigurumash
Exactly! Glass cannons will be more viable cause now if they don't get an instakill they have only poked the bear with a stick. No way they can out dps the current healing now. With less healing the pressure from a "glass cannon" build may be enough to keep the enemy on retreat/defense instead of activating a heal and fighting back and win the majority of fights.

Like I said I main a templar with pretty juicy healing and good damage. No one can basically one shot me and once Im ready to fight back I usually win. If I put vigor backbar I outheal 80% of the damage thrown at me. I only have minor mending, imagine if I had major mending AND minor vitality in my class kit.

We could be wrong but again I trust nobody's predictions how a blanket nerf to healing would pan out.

I could see an argument made that there is too much Crit Resist and not enough Crit Chance for low healing specs to gain the sort of advantage we imagine.

Anyhow about Minor Vitality - probably no DK is running Green Dragon Blood with the hybridization to Coag. I was a stalwart user of GDB, never once unslotted it since launch, but of course I run Coag now. The PTS change to Coag reads like it might put it more in line for sDKs with how we've used GDB for years - as an emergency heal you only cast at low health. It's literally impossible to spam GDB to 100% Health but at extremely low health it's always been the most powerful heal in the game (I think).

I play sDK/sCro, a blanket nerf to healing definitely hits me hard, and I'm all for it, even though I might regret it.

Feljax · May 2022

I personally love the idea of separating spell power and healing into two different stats. This alone would make DPS builds' heals less powerful and would make a dedicated healer be useful again.

BXR_Lonestar · May 2022

People who want to nerf healing in PVP, ask yourselves this: "Do healers have a place in PVP?"

Because nerfing healing across the board is just going to eliminate healers from another area of the game when they're really already not needed for much outside of maybe a vet DLC dungeon or trials.

If healing needs to be changed at all, IMO, they need to change healing so it scales off of something other than offensive stats or, for some heals, the player's health. DPS should NOT have better heals than a dedicated healer. Period. But because heals scale off of offensive stats (damage, max stats) a DPS who has invested almost everything into damage, crit, and crit damage (and as a bi-product, critical healing), their heals are better than a well rounded buff-taxi. This is ALSO a root problem in PVP where you have damage dealers who are cross-healing with strong heals because they've invested in offensive stats.

Change how healing in general works so that DPS don't out-perform dedicated healers in that department and then you can start to make some common-sense changes to balance PVP, like reducing self-healing to a minimal level so that groups actually NEED healers to be viable.

Dem_kitkats1 · May 2022

Feljax wrote: »

I personally love the idea of separating spell power and healing into two different stats. This alone would make DPS builds' heals less powerful and would make a dedicated healer be useful again.

Exactly, and perhaps limit healing stacking. I don't agree with just blanket nerfing healing, as I believe that if players require more healing than others, they should have access to it. However, it should come with some consequence. Players, in no way, should have access to healing that completely negates damage without sacrifice to their own damage. Also, having such high healing is not helping new/inexperienced players, but further widening the skill gap. Allowing skilled players to have access to high healing by simply stacking damage is no help to anyone.

A solution like this would alleviate some of the issues the game is having as a whole, not just in PvP. There would be less instances of players fake queuing because supports would actually be required to do their job.

Agenericname · May 2022

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Feljax wrote: »

I personally love the idea of separating spell power and healing into two different stats. This alone would make DPS builds' heals less powerful and would make a dedicated healer be useful again.

Exactly, and perhaps limit healing stacking. I don't agree with just blanket nerfing healing, as I believe that if players require more healing than others, they should have access to it. However, it should come with some consequence. Players, in no way, should have access to healing that completely negates damage without sacrifice to their own damage. Also, having such high healing is not helping new/inexperienced players, but further widening the skill gap. Allowing skilled players to have access to high healing by simply stacking damage is no help to anyone.

A solution like this would alleviate some of the issues the game is having as a whole, not just in PvP. There would be less instances of players fake queuing because supports would actually be required to do their job.

The only real issue that I would have with the reduction of self healing is twofold. When CP2.0 come along ZOS reduced the effectiveness of CP's contribution to healing. The CP themselves do less plus the base weapon/spell damage, which healing scales off of, also increased.

Reducing it now doesnt leave us a lot of options to regain it because we cant invest in CP to get it back if we want to take on any of the solo content or content when we dont have a healer with us. I believe it was more of an impactful choice in CP1.0 than in 2.0.

Healers are in a pretty decent spot right now, at least in 4 person content, compared to say a year ago. Last year seemed to be mostly tanks and 3 DDs, wearing RoTPO if necessary. The change to the sets and buffs have made to where 2 competent DDs and a good healer can hit the same numbers 1T/3DD were at a year ago, or close enough that it doesnt matter.

If we look at content where the DDs and healers are separated, like vCR portals for example, the reduction in self healing to the extent that it might make a healer necessary in content like vet dungeons, would most likely lead the DDs wearing RoTPO in other content. Their need for heals during the brief period they were in the portals would render the heals from healers redundant during the rest of the fight.

Wolfpaw · May 2022

Healers healing are not the problem, it's the damage builds with healing tooltips that match or even better than a dedicated heal/support.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Healers healing are not the problem, it's the damage builds with healing tooltips that match or even better than a dedicated heal/support.

That's really why things have got crazy, Hybridization. There is no longer a Downside to Stamina Setups, I used to think the limited Healing of Stamina Classes Balanced out all the Stuff they can do, but now you get these massive Heals from Stam Classes.

I mean I think that Hybridization is great most the time, but man. In PvP you don't need to make ANY compromises when you go full damage

WoppaBoem · May 2022

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

Like probably everyone who has pvp'ed since the hybrid changes have noticed that healing is way overtuned. Should I even go on about DK's? When I brought them up before the changes people denied their healing would be too strong and so on... The upcoming changes won't probably change DK's overpowered state too much.

I main a templar and really wouldn't mind if healing were redcued in PVP, the current state of the game is so... I don't know how to put it?

Sometimes I asked myself why I keep playing this game when ZOS make these weird changes to the game but sometimes I realize why I kept playing since Beta. It's such a great game in many aspects. IMAGINE if they would get PVP as close to 100% balanced as possible. MAN such a game it would be!

The challenge here is that dedicated healers within groups destroy the game people only die to seige, being over run or boms which makes Cyro very boring. Dedicated healers in BG's are insane and destroy the game, but for any combat without dedicated healers present it all seems fine tbh. Everyone can have good dmg and healing and it is all down to skill to succeed. But yes dedicated healers around and the game gets stupid.

How to separate both situations and balance around that I dont know but does matter a lot. Nerfing healing would properly only increase need for more zerging and faction stacking because without dedicated healer people just die quickly and the groups properly wont be really affective because their overhealing so much reducing some heals properly wont really impact them. So any ideas to reduce heals based on group size I would encourage but are properly not realistic. Still PVP balances need to be focussed on spreading out players not clucking more together.

WoppaBoem · May 2022

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Healers healing are not the problem, it's the damage builds with healing tooltips that match or even better than a dedicated heal/support.

Very much disagree with this. Not everyone wants to join big groups and team up with dedicated healers. If heals did not scale to build power then everyone need to be in big groups otherwise one cannot do dmg and heal choosing between the 2 would destroy the open world aspect so much and PVP only remains to be raid group against raid groups.

The current trade-off is tankiness and sustain versus dmg and heals, this works really well, changing this would completely change the game and how builds works and are created by players. For me it would destroy much what I very enjoy about this game in getting the balance between tank, sustain, dmg and heals and my own personal playstyle just right.

Didgerion · May 2022

HonestLoverr wrote: »

No. Battlespirit needs to go. Adjustments that got made through battlespirit should be permanent adjustments in literally every content even outside of PvP. They just never get it right with it. The heavily unbalanced gameplay in PvP through battlespirit causes so many things to be op and so many things to be useless couples with cp, cyro buffs. Sets/heals/damage/% boost and debuffs/speed/etc. the current meta is a mess and Battlespirit is one of the roots of this problem.

ZOS is tried to reinvent the wheel several times now in all these years and either broke something from PvP or PvE as a result. They should just get rid of Battlespirit once and for all and rebalance/reinvent all of the stat and scaling systems instead + remove any unnessessary % modifiers left and right. CP and all the cyrodiil buffs that are in place bring the gameplay even further out of balance.

Agree, PVE content is way too easy, battle spirit should be applied across the board.
PVP should just get rid of resistance stacking, there are multiple(5 at least) mechanisms that reduces damage and they stack.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

PvP should have a limit of Ongoing Heals on a single target, to avoid the million Mutagens on one target Infinitely Healing.

WoppaBoem · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Healers healing are not the problem, it's the damage builds with healing tooltips that match or even better than a dedicated heal/support.

That's really why things have got crazy, Hybridization. There is no longer a Downside to Stamina Setups, I used to think the limited Healing of Stamina Classes Balanced out all the Stuff they can do, but now you get these massive Heals from Stam Classes.

I mean I think that Hybridization is great most the time, but man. In PvP you don't need to make ANY compromises when you go full damage

Most people here seem to be willingly forget that building for dmg this needs to be balanced with tankiness and sustain. What do you mean not ANY Compromises, so if one would go full dmg setup one would be god in PVP, the opposite is true. Most builds focus first on tankiness and sustain before even thinking about dmg. You can have the most healing power of Cyro but if you just die from a single combo from a good player healing is worthless same goes for dmg you can have god power dmg but before you done your combo you are dead you can have all the dmg you want you now killing anything.

There is very much a trade-off also with hybrid build its sustain now for more than your primary resource and tankiness. Can it be better balanced yes but if you want a *** experience go on any stamwarden build which where god's 9 months ago and it will feel terrible their healing is so weak compared to the high dmg this patch.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Healers healing are not the problem, it's the damage builds with healing tooltips that match or even better than a dedicated heal/support.

That's really why things have got crazy, Hybridization. There is no longer a Downside to Stamina Setups, I used to think the limited Healing of Stamina Classes Balanced out all the Stuff they can do, but now you get these massive Heals from Stam Classes.

I mean I think that Hybridization is great most the time, but man. In PvP you don't need to make ANY compromises when you go full damage

Most people here seem to be willingly forget that building for dmg this needs to be balanced with tankiness and sustain. What do you mean not ANY Compromises, so if one would go full dmg setup one would be god in PVP, the opposite is true. Most builds focus first on tankiness and sustain before even thinking about dmg. You can have the most healing power of Cyro but if you just die from a single combo from a good player healing is worthless same goes for dmg you can have god power dmg but before you done your combo you are dead you can have all the dmg you want you now killing anything.

There is very much a trade-off also with hybrid build its sustain now for more than your primary resource and tankiness. Can it be better balanced yes but if you want a *** experience go on any stamwarden build which where god's 9 months ago and it will feel terrible their healing is so weak compared to the high dmg this patch.

Well Wardens big Burst self-Heal (And Mediocre Stun) scales off Max Health instead of weapon/spell like most Self Heals. Also the Green Balance big Sustain Passive Nature's Gift, doesn't proc when you heal yourself. I'd personally like if they switched up one of the Nature's Vine Morphs to be a Selfish Heal, Maybe instead you swing to an Enemy, Rooting Them and Heal yourself for X. That would be rad.

Being Warden in PvP right now isn't super great like Zos seems to think it is

kojou · May 2022

I came up with a PVP Nerf Cycle diagram to clarify the situation in case anyone is confused.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

kojou wrote: »

I came up with a PVP Nerf Cycle diagram to clarify the situation in case anyone is confused.

Directions Unclear. Removed all abilities to Balance Game

TechMaybeHic · May 2022

I am vehemently against an effort to limit healing to healers in PvP. That would dictate the way to play of being a group with healers or with the zerg, and eliminate smaller groups or solo. Then it would solve nothing as it would be the group/zerg with the most healers stacking HOTs that win encouraging even more faction stacks.

Easy answer is what we used to have with soft caps, maybe just adjusted to modern day builds. Now that we are hybrid, the slight natural limitations stats gave been lifted. Maybe put a amount of HPS to where any more sees diminishing return. Can do the same with total mitigation as well as damage.

sunshineflame · May 2022

"I think only other player's damage, mitigation and healing should be nerfed. Leave mine alone" - every PvPer

kojou · May 2022

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I am vehemently against an effort to limit healing to healers in PvP. That would dictate the way to play of being a group with healers or with the zerg, and eliminate smaller groups or solo. Then it would solve nothing as it would be the group/zerg with the most healers stacking HOTs that win encouraging even more faction stacks.

Easy answer is what we used to have with soft caps, maybe just adjusted to modern day builds. Now that we are hybrid, the slight natural limitations stats gave been lifted. Maybe put a amount of HPS to where any more sees diminishing return. Can do the same with total mitigation as well as damage.

I think the bigger problem is that it is too easy to stack everything. You can have good damage, good heals, and good mitigation, so why not make a powerful juggernaut that can do it all? If I could have any influence on the combat team I would want them to make it so you can only be good at one thing at a time and you have to sacrifice the other 2.

DMuehlhausen · May 2022

All self healing needs to go both in PvP and PvE.

Tanks and Healers should be needed for any group content. Yes we are buff/debuff bots, but all buffs and debuffs can be done by classes, or my gear you can find basically making tanks and healers useless.

Necrotech_Master · May 2022

Didgerion wrote: »

HonestLoverr wrote: »

No. Battlespirit needs to go. Adjustments that got made through battlespirit should be permanent adjustments in literally every content even outside of PvP. They just never get it right with it. The heavily unbalanced gameplay in PvP through battlespirit causes so many things to be op and so many things to be useless couples with cp, cyro buffs. Sets/heals/damage/% boost and debuffs/speed/etc. the current meta is a mess and Battlespirit is one of the roots of this problem.

ZOS is tried to reinvent the wheel several times now in all these years and either broke something from PvP or PvE as a result. They should just get rid of Battlespirit once and for all and rebalance/reinvent all of the stat and scaling systems instead + remove any unnessessary % modifiers left and right. CP and all the cyrodiil buffs that are in place bring the gameplay even further out of balance.

HonestLoverr wrote: »

No. Battlespirit needs to go. Adjustments that got made through battlespirit should be permanent adjustments in literally every content even outside of PvP. They just never get it right with it. The heavily unbalanced gameplay in PvP through battlespirit causes so many things to be op and so many things to be useless couples with cp, cyro buffs. Sets/heals/damage/% boost and debuffs/speed/etc. the current meta is a mess and Battlespirit is one of the roots of this problem.

ZOS is tried to reinvent the wheel several times now in all these years and either broke something from PvP or PvE as a result. They should just get rid of Battlespirit once and for all and rebalance/reinvent all of the stat and scaling systems instead + remove any unnessessary % modifiers left and right. CP and all the cyrodiil buffs that are in place bring the gameplay even further out of balance.

Agree, PVE content is way too easy, battle spirit should be applied across the board.
PVP should just get rid of resistance stacking, there are multiple(5 at least) mechanisms that reduces damage and they stack.

technically they have this already, its called imperial city lol

fighting the banner bosses solo while under effects of battle spirit is most certainly harder than pretty much any normal WB

Amottica · May 2022

HonestLoverr wrote: »

No. Battlespirit needs to go. Adjustments that got made through battlespirit should be permanent adjustments in literally every content even outside of PvP. They just never get it right with it. The heavily unbalanced gameplay in PvP through battlespirit causes so many things to be op and so many things to be useless couples with cp, cyro buffs. Sets/heals/damage/% boost and debuffs/speed/etc. the current meta is a mess and Battlespirit is one of the roots of this problem.

ZOS is tried to reinvent the wheel several times now in all these years and either broke something from PvP or PvE as a result. They should just get rid of Battlespirit once and for all and rebalance/reinvent all of the stat and scaling systems instead + remove any unnessessary % modifiers left and right. CP and all the cyrodiil buffs that are in place bring the gameplay even further out of balance.

First, if they just make the battle spirit standard that heavily unbalanced gameplay you speak of in PvP will become permanent.

Also, PvE content would have to be rebalanced as a result of battle spirit becoming permanent adjustments in literally every content outside of PvP. Heck, clearing the hardest content would become impossible by the best players.

I am not suggesting Zenimax has a good handle on balance but I am saying making battle spirit permanent across pretty much the entire game would be devastating and make the problem you bring up permanent.