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Scaling the current bar with dots
LordeGian
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Hello everyone! I wanted to settle my doubt once and for all: do dots really escalate with bar statuses? By status I mean Weapon and Spell Damage, Penetration, Critical Rate and Critical Damage.
I looked on the internet, I only found outdated information, for example a well-elaborated discussion on the subject created in 2016
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/290855/dots-ultimates-amp-bar-swapping-my-findings
where it is stated that only dots single targets keep the status of the bar where they were expelled.
I built a Stamina Dragonknight build where in my backbar I have a high critical chance rate, the idea was that my dots would continue with the high critical rate even when changing bars, where I have a very low rate.
I did some tests:
-Using the popular Combat Metrics addon, I tested my crit rate keeping the backbar and keeping the frontbar, both showed a very different critical hit difference. On my frontbar the dots critically hit much less than keeping on the backbar where they were generated (bar with higher critical rate).
-On the basis that dots should “keep” my stats when I cast them, I did a test run with the famous Mechanical Acuity set. I turned on acuity and inflicted all my dots on a target, so the critical rate that I applied my dots was 100%, but after Mechanical Acuity cooled down, the dots (already applied and currents on the target) no longer had a high rate of critical, I did this test keeping the same bar and changing bars, both with the same result.
So this led me to believe that dots, at least for critical chance, do not scale at the critical rate when they were expelled, which leads me to ask if this has always been the case, will all statuses continue to scale with the slash at that were expelled? Is it the same for both Penetration and Critical Damage?
I looked on the internet, I only found outdated information, for example a well-elaborated discussion on the subject created in 2016
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/290855/dots-ultimates-amp-bar-swapping-my-findings
where it is stated that only dots single targets keep the status of the bar where they were expelled.
I built a Stamina Dragonknight build where in my backbar I have a high critical chance rate, the idea was that my dots would continue with the high critical rate even when changing bars, where I have a very low rate.
I did some tests:
-Using the popular Combat Metrics addon, I tested my crit rate keeping the backbar and keeping the frontbar, both showed a very different critical hit difference. On my frontbar the dots critically hit much less than keeping on the backbar where they were generated (bar with higher critical rate).
-On the basis that dots should “keep” my stats when I cast them, I did a test run with the famous Mechanical Acuity set. I turned on acuity and inflicted all my dots on a target, so the critical rate that I applied my dots was 100%, but after Mechanical Acuity cooled down, the dots (already applied and currents on the target) no longer had a high rate of critical, I did this test keeping the same bar and changing bars, both with the same result.
So this led me to believe that dots, at least for critical chance, do not scale at the critical rate when they were expelled, which leads me to ask if this has always been the case, will all statuses continue to scale with the slash at that were expelled? Is it the same for both Penetration and Critical Damage?
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Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I had a sneaky suspicion it's always been the case. They scale with the offensive stats at the time but never could see if the same was said if the crit and pen took a snapshot or not.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭I remember reading the same, that there was a sort of rule that ground AOE's scaled according to your current bar but single target dots were fixed at point of application. But when I went to test it I (at least a year ago) I found it was a bit all over the place - mag dk I think. Indeed I think it then got changed again in a patch - possibly inadvertently - because I remeber having to shift eveythign around. I think you just have to test each dot individually to see how it's behaving. Probably after each patch. If I have time, Ill try and do another test at some point - it does matter for the dk, though usually because youd want ember/breath Fb'd if they scale.
That said, I don't think I don't think that if you pop Mechanical Acuity and cast you would - or should - get the benefit of that, after it's expired. That would seem pretty counter to the timed limitation of the set. Although, to be fair, if you backbar elfbane, it will extend the duration of dots cast on the back bar when you swap. Yeah... It's a minefield.
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Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I believe they increase or decrease in effectiveness based on your current bar. And thank goodness for that too.. it's nice being able to apply dots on the backbar and then switch to front bar and have them hit harder.2 -
LordeGian✭✭In the end, I'm pretty sure about the critical chance, Mechanical Acuity kind of proves that... I imagine the critical chance is a separate stat where any damage that happens onwards scales with the current status of the bar, so the The trick of applying dots and switching to a stronger bar is really a good thing.
Now I need to be sure about the rest of the stats: Penetration, Weapon Damage, Spell damage, Critical damage, has anyone made any checks or are you sure about one of these? Penetration in particular, does it stick to the skill when it was applied? Like, for example, I have a high penetration in the bar where I apply my over time spells and when I switch to another bar they will still be ignoring the same resistance as the target?0 -
MudcrabAttack✭✭✭✭I remember an old video by GilliamTheRogue explaining how single target dots remember weapon/spell damage from the time of application, but current crit%, crit damage, and penetration affect all ticking damage at the moment. I’d link it if I can find it, but I can’t. So if you have more weapon or spell damage at the time you cast a DOT, it will keep up damage throughout the duration even if the value drops.
However the same can’t be said of crit damage and penetration. If you lose some of either after applying a DOT it will reduce the damage
However the BRP bow set dot remembers a crit. If you see a tremendously high bow parse, look down at the magnum shot crit percent, it’s usually pretty highEdited by MudcrabAttack on December 14, 2021 5:18AM1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I remember reading the same, that there was a sort of rule that ground AOE's scaled according to your current bar but single target dots were fixed at point of application. But when I went to test it I (at least a year ago) I found it was a bit all over the place - mag dk I think. Indeed I think it then got changed again in a patch - possibly inadvertently - because I remeber having to shift eveythign around. I think you just have to test each dot individually to see how it's behaving. Probably after each patch. If I have time, Ill try and do another test at some point - it does matter for the dk, though usually because youd want ember/breath Fb'd if they scale.
That said, I don't think I don't think that if you pop Mechanical Acuity and cast you would - or should - get the benefit of that, after it's expired. That would seem pretty counter to the timed limitation of the set. Although, to be fair, if you backbar elfbane, it will extend the duration of dots cast on the back bar when you swap. Yeah... It's a minefield.
I am not sure your mech acuity test does quite what you think it does, but could be wrong. Even if you just use one bar. If I cast a DOT with Mech acuity active, I don't expect all DOTS to crit 100% of the time when it wears off. These feels like one of these extra layers on the calculation side of things. When your mech acuity procs, does your crit chance go to 100 on the stat sheet? I have honestly never checked.
I have always been under the impression that each tick of your DOT is based on your stats at that time. But I am not sure that is true of certain skills with delays. Like If I cast meteor, then pop a potion, before it hits, I don't believe you get the benefit of the potion buffs. My experience is anecdotal, nothing I have actually run tests on.1 -
Fennwitty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭From the Sword Swinger question also on the front page today, Jim_Pipp linked a video from Skinny Cheeks that includes this. It's later on in the same video he talks about single target vs. aoe scaling by active bar or the bar it's equipped on.
Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of the testing/sources Skinny Cheeks did. This just appears relevant to the question.Yesterday Skinny Cheeks released a video YESTERDAY that clears this up - spoiler - the boosts do apply, but don't show on stat sheet.
Video starts at the relevant section, takes about 2 minutes.
https://youtu.be/-6yHC7TLoME?t=40Edited by Fennwitty on December 14, 2021 7:47PMPC NA1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭The variables for a skill's co-efficient are taken at the time the DoT is cast. Any variable which is not part of the co-efficient is updated per bar. So the only variables which "stick" are your Max Stam/Mag and Weapon/Spell Damage. Crit, Penetration, Charged, Damage Done, etc., all taken from whatever bar you are on.
Right?Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
LordeGian✭✭Based on the answers, in a StamDK build, it would be consistent in one of my bars where I only apply my dots, it has high Max Stamina and Weapon Damage to buff their initial damage, and in my other bar, it has Critical Chance and Very high penetration?Edited by LordeGian on December 15, 2021 12:40PM0
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Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Based on the answers, in a StamDK build, it would be consistent in one of my bars where I only apply my dots, it has high Max Stamina and Weapon Damage to buff their initial damage, and in my other bar, it has Critical Chance and Very high penetration?
Yes, if you were willing to sacrifice the strength of any Direct Damage on your frontbar in favor of your back-barred DoTs being stronger on your frontbar. I assume some middle ground is optimal.
I'm not sure what the practical application would be however when it comes to set selection. I PvP but I both-bar Witch Knight's Defiance, if I'm going to back-bar a Weapon Damage buff it's usually Powerful Assault. Witch Knight's WD buff to DoTs would carry over even if I only ran it backbar, but I'd rather have the Witch Knight buff on my front-barred Direct Damage as well. It's not typical for a PvP StamDK to make any meaningful investment into Crit however.
Still, for sure in my view, when it comes to my DoT damage, it is best to run Nirnhoned on my backbar - where I slot my DoTs, and Sharpened on my front, which matches the idea you describe.
Edited by Urzigurumash on December 15, 2021 4:54PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Tossing a wrench into the discussion.
It could very well be that ground-based AoE DoTs work differently than a DoT placed directly on a target. Volley (and morphs) might keep stats that were in place when they launched but Poison Arrow (and morphs) might change as the character stats change. It could be the reverse for this.
My point is the behavior may not be the same for all DoTs as there are different types of DoTs. Hopefully, they are the same within specific types but even then there are no guarantees.2 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tossing a wrench into the discussion.
It could very well be that ground-based AoE DoTs work differently than a DoT placed directly on a target. Volley (and morphs) might keep stats that were in place when they launched but Poison Arrow (and morphs) might change as the character stats change. It could be the reverse for this.
My point is the behavior may not be the same for all DoTs as there are different types of DoTs. Hopefully, they are the same within specific types but even then there are no guarantees.
This is a very important point I ignored. My comments pertained only to "Target-Attached" DoTs - like Noxious Breath, Venomous Claw, Volatile Armor.
The other two sorts of DoTs - "Ground-Based" and "Emanative" - do in fact update their co-efficient calculation based on your bar. In other words, these two types of DoTs scale off the Stam and Weapon Damage on your present bar.
By Emanative, I mean DoTs like Corrosive. I assume this also applies to Northern Storm, etc., but I'm not quite sure about Beams like Zaan's or Radiant Oppression, maybe they should be classified differently.
Perhaps we could just classify DoTs as either "Portable" or "Location Constrained" - Portable do not update their scaling co-efficient, Location Constrained do update their scaling co-efficient, but both classes will update their Crit, Penetration, Damage Done, Charged, etc. By portable I mean it doesn't matter where the target travels, the DoT ticks, but for the other class, the DoT only ticks for those within its location.
At least that's my understanding. All of my comments here really only pertain to DK class skills. Again, I'm not quite sure how Beams work, hardly ever used one.
Edited by Urzigurumash on December 15, 2021 6:29PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
LordeGian✭✭I did some tests today and it really seems like my dots hit more critically when I'm holding the correct bar, with that I can assemble the build and skills so the damage is maximized.
But with that, another question emerged, is the scaling with the bar also useful for HoT (healing over time)?
For example:
I cast my Resolving Vigor on the backbar with little critical chance while the effect runs I switch to my front bar where my critical chance is much higher. Will current Resolving Vigor ticks benefit from my highest critical chance?0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭I did some tests today and it really seems like my dots hit more critically when I'm holding the correct bar, with that I can assemble the build and skills so the damage is maximized.
But with that, another question emerged, is the scaling with the bar also useful for HoT (healing over time)?
For example:
I cast my Resolving Vigor on the backbar with little critical chance while the effect runs I switch to my front bar where my critical chance is much higher. Will current Resolving Vigor ticks benefit from my highest critical chance?
Presumably HoTs follow the same rules as DoTs. Echoing Vigor would follow the same rules as Noxious Breath - Cinder Storm would follow the same rules as Dragonknight Standard - Hiti's Hearth would follow the same rules as Corrosive Armor.
For any skill though, your Crit Chance for every tick should update for the bar you are on.
I could be wrong about any or all of that.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This is the general rule of thumb I've used and it's seems to hold true. Correct me if I'm wrong.- Target attached dots/hots are based on the stats you have at the time of casting/hitting.
- AOE dots/hots that you can avoid by moving out of the aoe, update per tick based on whatever is active at the time.
Weapon Traits are another ball game as they do different things.- Charged and Powered only work while you're holding the weapons, the skill type does not matter.
- Stat boosts to your base character like NIrn, Precise and Sharpened will check the above 2 skill types.
- Infused Enchants will carry over when you bar swap as long as you cast an aoe dot from that weapon skill line. Eg. Stampede 2H, Volley Bow, Blade Cloak DW or Blockade Destro. This is how you can combine Infused + Charged on front for high uptimes on status effects.
- Not sure how Defending works and if it works in reverse. If someone applies a dot to you, will it copy your Armor bonus or will it check each tick?
For example, Powered will only apply to your heals while you're on that bar. Vigor is a self applied hot, so it copies your stats at the time of casting. This means a Nirnhoned weapon that gives you +300 or so weapon damage will buff Vigors tooltip on cast and Vigor will carry that value even when you weapon swap, while Powered will NOT buff the base tooltip, only effecting Vigor while you're actually on that bar.
This is why in pvp, it's advantagous (although difficult) to use Vigor on your front bar where you have much higher weapon damage, then swap to your offbar bar that has Powered. Now you're getting the Nirn tooltip AND Powered to buff that tooltip even further. I say difficult, because in my personal experience, having a hot like Vigor on your front bar is tricky to use when you're trying to survive on the defensive and bar swapping constantly to cast multiple defensive skills is not worth the small bonus on the tooltip.PC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit1 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since the differentiation between AoE DOTs and single target DOTs have been established I'll add that the Deadly Aim CP perk does effect the single target DOTs.... even the ones applied via Volatile Armor and Fiery Breath. Funny how you'll find single target effects in AoE attacks.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK1 -
Fizzyapple✭✭✭To trigger an enchantment on bar B while you are currently on bar A, you need to be currently doing damage with a ground-targeted damage-over-time weapon skill that was already cast on bar B.
Only true ground-targeted AoE/DoTs behave this way.. Wall of Elements, Volley, Blade Cloak and Stampede. That's it.
Regardless of type however, all damaging skills adopt the attributes of the bar you're on, just like everything else.
No other stats carry over for any skill that causes damage but some procs do.
An interesting example is casting PI on a bar where only Sheer Venom is active then switching to a bar where only Syvarra (don't cast anything) is active. PI that is already active on your target with the SV proc will not only adopt whatever stats the bar with Syvarras is on but also adopt Syvarras proc.
Edited by Fizzyapple on May 21, 2022 6:01AM0 -
Foxtrot39✭✭✭✭In short yes
I remember when I was playing stamblade and my dots changed crit & damage value when I barswaped back & forth0