"GOOD" and DECENT tutorial for the group trial beginner

AvalonRanger · May 2022

"GOOD" and DECENT tutorial for the group trial beginner

...and also need decent UI designer for the ZOS. (Dear ZOS. Lesson to me seriously, no joking)

"This game really needs decent rule book for the newbie player."

Sometime I see these comment at the zone chat. And I very agree with that.
I've already understood most of normal dungeon mechanics. Because ESO youtuber
explain how it works in the playing through. Without those tutorial movie, maybe I can't
understand how it works. And still lots of newbie player can't understand Skyrim Dolman rules.
It's not only me, I think it's a common problem of this game from year 2014

"ESO UI design is still too much abstractive, and including lots of unpredictable disgusting sudden death because of it."
I think ESO UI design is extremely terrible compared with other Zenimax game title (Doom-Eternal is good game streaming and good UI design).

Once I could kill first boss of Sanctum Ophidia group trial by solo, so I think my tank build is not fake.
I got chance to challenge of my first group trial mission. Cloudrest? Something group trial mission of Summerset Island area.
I did my tank role well, but I couldn't find out any of mechanics of that trial. So my first trial challenge was failure.
There were something B-krogan? looking boss standing out there. I've already defeated B-krogan world boss of summerset area
so many times. So I've already known some mechanism of that thing, but I couldn't understand strange gate at the center of area,
and how to avoid sudden death of everyone.

"Is it really my fault ?" I don't think so. It might be part of my fault. But it was hard to predict such kind of accident for the beginners.

Both ESO UI design and game walkthrough streaming design are worst ever. It's really terrible

There were many of flash thunder effect or abstractive damage area, and strange gate at the center of combat area...
It's the only visual memory of Cloudrest for me. Not much "meaningful comprehensive information" for the game rules out there.
What a lazy game design is !! Just put the boss character and lots of mobs at the big empty room. Don't you think so ZOS?

Most of contemporary good action game title has decent tutorial mission. Player can easily get accustom to new game rules
through the walkthrough the mission one by one. Because, game streaming design is good scheme. There're no situation
which people engage totally unknown combat. Why? because it's the "computer game". Totally unpredictable mistake make the
player too much stressful feeling. ZOS must understand how "bad" this stressful inconvenient game design is. 　　
(Doom-Eternal is good game streaming and good UI design)

Oh! by the way...

ZOS actually did tutorial sequence (not good enough tutorial though) at the stone garden group dungeon. (Getting green potion make
player beefy werewolf temporally.) Why they can't do same style game streaming design at the other mission? But still we must
warn against newbie at the poison ground of last boss combat. "press X on the green bottle on the floor".

....sometimes.

If newbie should not play hardcore content, then just remove those contents from the game. This is MMO, and casual player is
most important customer for maintaining income of business. Do not make the game only for the experienced player.

Kusto · May 2022

In not sure what you're asking. Tutorial for trials? They are all different to know.
I don't see any issues with trials. Just join some guilds and learn with them. Many do runs for newer and inexperienced players.

fizl101 · May 2022

Trials do give lots of information as to what to do - for example cloudrest you are shouted to go down into the portals. They come up on all of the mini bosses too so you can learn them before you get to the final boss. Sunspire the dragons have tells - e.g the ice dragon puts its head up in the air before the ice cages arrive, the final boss taps his left wing before the big head swipe.

To me (at least) part of the fun is learning these mechanics by finding the tells and the clues given. At some point a trial is new to everyone, and people learn by trying to work out what needs to be done. I actually like the way it is done (and this is coming from someone who purely played solo for the first 2 years and still won't do a PUG)

thorwyn · May 2022

Game mechanics are not meant to be explained, they are meant to be figured out. The game confronts you with a problem and the player is supposed to solve that problem. That's how it works.

In many cases, important mechanics are being introduced by the game. The portal in Cloudrest is a good example. When you're fighting the mini bosses, you will see the portal mechanic for the first time. If you figure out how to interact with the portal, you're going donw into the shadow arena and see the crystals. Failing to close the portal does not mean a wipe this time, so that's the tutorial you're asking for, the entire mechanic, destroying the crystals, sending the shards, carrying the orbs to the shards, is there for you to practice and learn. And also, that's the difference to the ZMaja portals. Because in this fight, you HAVE to close the portal in time, otherwise you're going to wipe the group. It's not exactly hard to figure this out.

James-Wayne · May 2022

Trial tutorials are not a issue, lack of a trial HUB for pickup groups is.

No Craglorn is not a HUB, Guilds are not HUBs.

AvalonRanger · May 2022

Kusto wrote: »

In not sure what you're asking. Tutorial for trials? They are all different to know.
I don't see any issues with trials. Just join some guilds and learn with them. Many do runs for newer and inexperienced players.

--> In not sure what you're asking. Tutorial for trials? They are all different to know.

Please check boss fighting "DOOM ETERNAL" at the youtube. It's a very good example of better game streaming design.

Yes, all different. But in most of decent game has easy mission to explain new mechanics for players
before true dangerous challenge. Seriously say, I've never seen those game design like ESO before play this game in 2014.

Actually say, I've seen many people who doesn't understand some dungeon mechanics both normal and veteran.
Or, strange character building over CP 1K player who can't survive just 10 second at the normal dungeon.
Or fake role building at the random dungeon matching.

Lack of game rule information of this game is major problem, and it's common sense. Not minority.

AvalonRanger · May 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

Game mechanics are not meant to be explained, they are meant to be figured out. The game confronts you with a problem and the player is supposed to solve that problem. That's how it works.

In many cases, important mechanics are being introduced by the game. The portal in Cloudrest is a good example. When you're fighting the mini bosses, you will see the portal mechanic for the first time. If you figure out how to interact with the portal, you're going donw into the shadow arena and see the crystals. Failing to close the portal does not mean a wipe this time, so that's the tutorial you're asking for, the entire mechanic, destroying the crystals, sending the shards, carrying the orbs to the shards, is there for you to practice and learn. And also, that's the difference to the ZMaja portals. Because in this fight, you HAVE to close the portal in time, otherwise you're going to wipe the group. It's not exactly hard to figure this out.

-->Game mechanics are not meant to be explained...

hmm.....I've been game graphic designer 15 years now. But I've never met those senior game designer saying like that.

AvalonRanger · May 2022

James-Wayne wrote: »

Trial tutorials are not a issue, lack of a trial HUB for pickup groups is.

No Craglorn is not a HUB, Guilds are not HUBs.

I thought same thing. Once I heard someone said at the forum that Craglon is good place for finding trial group.
So I went to Craglon also. But it's useless. People just searching PUG member only for gear farming. Not so
different from daily random normal dungeon run. No information for playing guide or support for the newbie.

I think ESO is very unsocial MMO game. It looks like a single play online game for me.

thorwyn · May 2022

You are confusing core game mechanics and encounter mechanics. Core game mechanics (move, attakc, dodge, block, interrupt) need to be explained, either via tutorial or written explanation and they are enabling the player to actually play the game by introducing them to the available options.

Encounter mechanics are a different thing. Here, the game creates a problem for the player: This is a boss, try to defeat him by using the options you have. And the player can now start figuring out strategies on how to solve that problem by picking up the hints and informations he gets. No game EVER says something like: "So this his Z'Maja and if you want to defeat her, you need to ...". Because you are a player and not a puppet on a string following instructions.

PacMan never explained the mechanic of the power pills. Likewise, ESO does not tell you how to deal with the Cloudrest portals.

Gundug · May 2022

I would not say the game completely fails to explain the portal mechanic in Cloudrest, since Olorime shouts out hints during the battle regarding the portal and crystals. Without reading a guide, players may have a difficult time coming to terms with these things, but the encounter is not created with an intention of “ one and done” like the majority of activities in the game. I believe the designers expected that clueless players would die a number of times while they piece together exactly what is happening and what they need to do.

I do agree that the interface is lacking in some areas, particularly in the case of status effects on the player, which are often difficult to see during combat. Stuns, for instance, can be very hard to detect quickly through many other on-screen effects, since there is no visual clue, aside from the character crouching down. Some enemies also stun without any telegraph. I think a distinctive “stunned” sound and some form of telltale effect on the edges of the screen might be a better way of showing what is going on. Similar types of effects could be used to easily show other effects, like burning, poisoned, debuffed, etc.

AvalonRanger · May 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

You are confusing core game mechanics and encounter mechanics. Core game mechanics (move, attakc, dodge, block, interrupt) need to be explained, either via tutorial or written explanation and they are enabling the player to actually play the game by introducing them to the available options.

Encounter mechanics are a different thing. Here, the game creates a problem for the player: This is a boss, try to defeat him by using the options you have. And the player can now start figuring out strategies on how to solve that problem by picking up the hints and informations he gets. No game EVER says something like: "So this his Z'Maja and if you want to defeat her, you need to ...". Because you are a player and not a puppet on a string following instructions.

PacMan never explained the mechanic of the power pills. Likewise, ESO does not tell you how to deal with the Cloudrest portals.

--> You are confusing core game mechanics and encounter mechanics...

No, I'm not confused. I can understand your logic, and I think your logic is totally correct
as general knowledge of game designing. But....

--> how to solve that problem by picking up the hints..

picking up hint... I think ESO doesn't have common sense of visual game design of such "hint".

OK, then I try to pick up one of bad example of ESO. In WesternSkyrim area. I know that main story contents
includes basic tutorial of the "Pike gimmick" of Dolman of same area. But, most of main quest is too much easy.
It will not tell about "lethal crevasse" or dangerous big guy surrounding pike in the Dolman. Most of newbie
couldn't notice that ghost is health potion of the pike. Moreover, damage amount is extremely big compared with
main quest tutorial.

"Hey!! you guys must attack the pike, or kill ghost until reach the pike. Don't running from it !!"
I've seen soooooooo many times those comment at the zone chat. Yesterday, I saw those comment once again.
Once I saw two CP600~800 dps player keep fighting against big guy and die so many times at the Dolman,
and ignore the pike totally. Sigh...

When I was Cloudrest trial, I was main tank, and my first trial experience. I'm very busy to control big boss,
and there is no chance to research such a "hint". If I do such thing at that time, CP below 500 player will die
blink an eye moment. Totally unfair business.

Do you still think that ESO have common sense to display good "hint" before players are confused?
I've never seen such a "unwelcome newbie game" like the ESO through this 15 years.

fizl101 · May 2022

If it was your first time in a trial, I assume you weren't the trial leader, and so wouldn't be responsible for the other 11 people to ensure they understood the mechanics that were relevant to them. If you were the trial leader, it really is up to you to know what happens unless you have agreed with the team that you are going in without knowledge to learn it on the fly. Normal dungeons and trials are ideal for learning these kinds of mechanics and recognising the kind of tells that ZOS put into the game.

I'm not 100% sure what your message is here re. the harrowstorms- the pikes on the harrowstorms, you learn the mechanic for them as you say. All of the players can see what happens when a ghost gets absorbed by them. If they don't notice it, and also fail to notice any zone chat/zone voice chat giving guidance, maybe they just wanted to attack the big baddy? Or maybe they didn't understand the language the voice chat was in, or maybe just stubborn! This isn't candy crush where a move hint is shown if you dont make a move for a while, you are expected to work out a strategy to beat the situation

AvalonRanger · May 2022

fizl101 wrote: »

If it was your first time in a trial, I assume you weren't the trial leader, and so wouldn't be responsible for the other 11 people to ensure they understood the mechanics that were relevant to them. If you were the trial leader, it really is up to you to know what happens unless you have agreed with the team that you are going in without knowledge to learn it on the fly. Normal dungeons and trials are ideal for learning these kinds of mechanics and recognising the kind of tells that ZOS put into the game.

I'm not 100% sure what your message is here re. the harrowstorms- the pikes on the harrowstorms, you learn the mechanic for them as you say. All of the players can see what happens when a ghost gets absorbed by them. If they don't notice it, and also fail to notice any zone chat/zone voice chat giving guidance, maybe they just wanted to attack the big baddy? Or maybe they didn't understand the language the voice chat was in, or maybe just stubborn! This isn't candy crush where a move hint is shown if you dont make a move for a while, you are expected to work out a strategy to beat the situation

Yea, I'm not leader at that time. CP300 player was leader. I was just PUG tank at the Cragoln. I have enough
tanking experience, but I was totally newbie for the group trial. Coincidentally or Unfortunately, I was most toughest
player among the group member at that time....so I become main tank naturally.

I don't want to play group trial anymore, It's time wasting. And, don't like PUG work of those things.
Group trial became my most trauma memory of ESO.

By the way, I've seen many of fake healer. But I don't complain against fake role at the normal dungeon run.
because I know it needs lots of time until matching group without tank or healer member. And I'm not
hardcore MMO player also. I prefer story main quest rather than those things. I wish next High Isle DLC has
plenty of good solo story quest.

fizl101 · May 2022

AvalonRanger wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

If it was your first time in a trial, I assume you weren't the trial leader, and so wouldn't be responsible for the other 11 people to ensure they understood the mechanics that were relevant to them. If you were the trial leader, it really is up to you to know what happens unless you have agreed with the team that you are going in without knowledge to learn it on the fly. Normal dungeons and trials are ideal for learning these kinds of mechanics and recognising the kind of tells that ZOS put into the game.

I'm not 100% sure what your message is here re. the harrowstorms- the pikes on the harrowstorms, you learn the mechanic for them as you say. All of the players can see what happens when a ghost gets absorbed by them. If they don't notice it, and also fail to notice any zone chat/zone voice chat giving guidance, maybe they just wanted to attack the big baddy? Or maybe they didn't understand the language the voice chat was in, or maybe just stubborn! This isn't candy crush where a move hint is shown if you dont make a move for a while, you are expected to work out a strategy to beat the situation

Yea, I'm not leader at that time. CP300 player was leader. I was just PUG tank at the Cragoln. I have enough
tanking experience, but I was totally newbie for the group trial. Coincidentally or Unfortunately, I was most toughest
player among the group member at that time....so I become main tank naturally.

I don't want to play group trial anymore, It's time wasting. And, don't like PUG work of those things.
Group trial became my most trauma memory of ESO.

By the way, I've seen many of fake healer. But I don't complain against fake role at the normal dungeon run.
because I know it needs lots of time until matching group without tank or healer member. And I'm not
hardcore MMO player also. I prefer story main quest rather than those things. I wish next High Isle DLC has
plenty of good solo story quest.

I hope it has a good story too

I love trials but I would never PUG one, I joined a social guild that ran noob trials and slowly picked it up.

If you find a guild that works for you, maybe give it another go! I really wouldn't equate a PUG experience to a good trial run

Good luck!

AvalonRanger · May 2022

fizl101 wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

If it was your first time in a trial, I assume you weren't the trial leader, and so wouldn't be responsible for the other 11 people to ensure they understood the mechanics that were relevant to them. If you were the trial leader, it really is up to you to know what happens unless you have agreed with the team that you are going in without knowledge to learn it on the fly. Normal dungeons and trials are ideal for learning these kinds of mechanics and recognising the kind of tells that ZOS put into the game.

I'm not 100% sure what your message is here re. the harrowstorms- the pikes on the harrowstorms, you learn the mechanic for them as you say. All of the players can see what happens when a ghost gets absorbed by them. If they don't notice it, and also fail to notice any zone chat/zone voice chat giving guidance, maybe they just wanted to attack the big baddy? Or maybe they didn't understand the language the voice chat was in, or maybe just stubborn! This isn't candy crush where a move hint is shown if you dont make a move for a while, you are expected to work out a strategy to beat the situation

Yea, I'm not leader at that time. CP300 player was leader. I was just PUG tank at the Cragoln. I have enough
tanking experience, but I was totally newbie for the group trial. Coincidentally or Unfortunately, I was most toughest
player among the group member at that time....so I become main tank naturally.

I don't want to play group trial anymore, It's time wasting. And, don't like PUG work of those things.
Group trial became my most trauma memory of ESO.

By the way, I've seen many of fake healer. But I don't complain against fake role at the normal dungeon run.
because I know it needs lots of time until matching group without tank or healer member. And I'm not
hardcore MMO player also. I prefer story main quest rather than those things. I wish next High Isle DLC has
plenty of good solo story quest.

I hope it has a good story too I love trials but I would never PUG one, I joined a social guild that ran noob trials and slowly picked it up.

If you find a guild that works for you, maybe give it another go! I really wouldn't equate a PUG experience to a good trial run

Good luck!

Can you tell me your guild?

fizl101 · May 2022

AvalonRanger wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

If it was your first time in a trial, I assume you weren't the trial leader, and so wouldn't be responsible for the other 11 people to ensure they understood the mechanics that were relevant to them. If you were the trial leader, it really is up to you to know what happens unless you have agreed with the team that you are going in without knowledge to learn it on the fly. Normal dungeons and trials are ideal for learning these kinds of mechanics and recognising the kind of tells that ZOS put into the game.

I'm not 100% sure what your message is here re. the harrowstorms- the pikes on the harrowstorms, you learn the mechanic for them as you say. All of the players can see what happens when a ghost gets absorbed by them. If they don't notice it, and also fail to notice any zone chat/zone voice chat giving guidance, maybe they just wanted to attack the big baddy? Or maybe they didn't understand the language the voice chat was in, or maybe just stubborn! This isn't candy crush where a move hint is shown if you dont make a move for a while, you are expected to work out a strategy to beat the situation

Yea, I'm not leader at that time. CP300 player was leader. I was just PUG tank at the Cragoln. I have enough
tanking experience, but I was totally newbie for the group trial. Coincidentally or Unfortunately, I was most toughest
player among the group member at that time....so I become main tank naturally.

I don't want to play group trial anymore, It's time wasting. And, don't like PUG work of those things.
Group trial became my most trauma memory of ESO.

By the way, I've seen many of fake healer. But I don't complain against fake role at the normal dungeon run.
because I know it needs lots of time until matching group without tank or healer member. And I'm not
hardcore MMO player also. I prefer story main quest rather than those things. I wish next High Isle DLC has
plenty of good solo story quest.

I hope it has a good story too I love trials but I would never PUG one, I joined a social guild that ran noob trials and slowly picked it up.

If you find a guild that works for you, maybe give it another go! I really wouldn't equate a PUG experience to a good trial run

Good luck!

Can you tell me your guild?

I'm on PS4 EU is that your server?

AvalonRanger · May 2022

fizl101 wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

If it was your first time in a trial, I assume you weren't the trial leader, and so wouldn't be responsible for the other 11 people to ensure they understood the mechanics that were relevant to them. If you were the trial leader, it really is up to you to know what happens unless you have agreed with the team that you are going in without knowledge to learn it on the fly. Normal dungeons and trials are ideal for learning these kinds of mechanics and recognising the kind of tells that ZOS put into the game.

I'm not 100% sure what your message is here re. the harrowstorms- the pikes on the harrowstorms, you learn the mechanic for them as you say. All of the players can see what happens when a ghost gets absorbed by them. If they don't notice it, and also fail to notice any zone chat/zone voice chat giving guidance, maybe they just wanted to attack the big baddy? Or maybe they didn't understand the language the voice chat was in, or maybe just stubborn! This isn't candy crush where a move hint is shown if you dont make a move for a while, you are expected to work out a strategy to beat the situation

Yea, I'm not leader at that time. CP300 player was leader. I was just PUG tank at the Cragoln. I have enough
tanking experience, but I was totally newbie for the group trial. Coincidentally or Unfortunately, I was most toughest
player among the group member at that time....so I become main tank naturally.

I don't want to play group trial anymore, It's time wasting. And, don't like PUG work of those things.
Group trial became my most trauma memory of ESO.

By the way, I've seen many of fake healer. But I don't complain against fake role at the normal dungeon run.
because I know it needs lots of time until matching group without tank or healer member. And I'm not
hardcore MMO player also. I prefer story main quest rather than those things. I wish next High Isle DLC has
plenty of good solo story quest.

I hope it has a good story too I love trials but I would never PUG one, I joined a social guild that ran noob trials and slowly picked it up.

If you find a guild that works for you, maybe give it another go! I really wouldn't equate a PUG experience to a good trial run

Good luck!

Can you tell me your guild?

I'm on PS4 EU is that your server?

Oh, I'm PC-NA server. Then I can't join your guild...

fizl101 · May 2022

AvalonRanger wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

If it was your first time in a trial, I assume you weren't the trial leader, and so wouldn't be responsible for the other 11 people to ensure they understood the mechanics that were relevant to them. If you were the trial leader, it really is up to you to know what happens unless you have agreed with the team that you are going in without knowledge to learn it on the fly. Normal dungeons and trials are ideal for learning these kinds of mechanics and recognising the kind of tells that ZOS put into the game.

I'm not 100% sure what your message is here re. the harrowstorms- the pikes on the harrowstorms, you learn the mechanic for them as you say. All of the players can see what happens when a ghost gets absorbed by them. If they don't notice it, and also fail to notice any zone chat/zone voice chat giving guidance, maybe they just wanted to attack the big baddy? Or maybe they didn't understand the language the voice chat was in, or maybe just stubborn! This isn't candy crush where a move hint is shown if you dont make a move for a while, you are expected to work out a strategy to beat the situation

Yea, I'm not leader at that time. CP300 player was leader. I was just PUG tank at the Cragoln. I have enough
tanking experience, but I was totally newbie for the group trial. Coincidentally or Unfortunately, I was most toughest
player among the group member at that time....so I become main tank naturally.

I don't want to play group trial anymore, It's time wasting. And, don't like PUG work of those things.
Group trial became my most trauma memory of ESO.

By the way, I've seen many of fake healer. But I don't complain against fake role at the normal dungeon run.
because I know it needs lots of time until matching group without tank or healer member. And I'm not
hardcore MMO player also. I prefer story main quest rather than those things. I wish next High Isle DLC has
plenty of good solo story quest.

I hope it has a good story too I love trials but I would never PUG one, I joined a social guild that ran noob trials and slowly picked it up.

If you find a guild that works for you, maybe give it another go! I really wouldn't equate a PUG experience to a good trial run

Good luck!

Can you tell me your guild?

I'm on PS4 EU is that your server?

Oh, I'm PC-NA server. Then I can't join your guild...

Try the guild search for social guilds. You may not find the ideal that fits you first time, but they are out there! Also ask around with people you have found helpful in dungeons, or just other friends who play. There is also a guild section on the forums, but I don't know how busy it is.

thorwyn · May 2022

I don't want to play group trial anymore, It's time wasting. And, don't like PUG work of those things.
Group trial became my most trauma memory of ESO.

OK try something with a more chilled and relaxed combat systm like.... Elden Ring.

Just kidding.
Do not let this experience discourage you! Trials with PUGs always suck. And if this was your first trial experience, no wonder you were overwhelmed by the action. Trust me... find a guild, join a guild trial group with voice com and you will enjoy the gaming experience. Beating a trial for the first time is one of the most satisfying experiences in ESO.

AvalonRanger · May 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

I don't want to play group trial anymore, It's time wasting. And, don't like PUG work of those things.
Group trial became my most trauma memory of ESO.

OK try something with a more chilled and relaxed combat systm like.... Elden Ring.

Just kidding.
Do not let this experience discourage you! Trials with PUGs always suck. And if this was your first trial experience, no wonder you were overwhelmed by the action. Trust me... find a guild, join a guild trial group with voice com and you will enjoy the gaming experience. Beating a trial for the first time is one of the most satisfying experiences in ESO.

No thanks Elden RIng, that's more worse.

Yea, maybe I should become more believable guild member.

My guild mate usually say "Hey, anyone want to do PUG tank of mazzatan Lead for me?."
CP over 1K my guild mate die so many times at that moment. I kill everything by solo for him.

And finally he said "Thanks!! But I couldn't get Lead again....."

Maybe my guild is just sucks. They're no different from Craglon people....