Are devs disrespecting good players now?

Wolfpaw · May 2022

Dexter411 wrote: »

Next thing, they will call us toxic elitsts for pulling of +120k on dummy
And it is not like most of those buffs require much to have good uptimes.

I wouldn't be offended by people who don't run endgame content like prog trials and pvp, everyone already knows ZOS general feelings towards the end game community, especially pvp.

NarutoUzumaki24 · May 2022

No, stop reading too much into it. Not everything has hidden meanings and innuendos.

belial5221_ESO · May 2022

Is it really disrespecting "good players"?Maybe it's leveling the playing field,and helping players with issues do better.If I can hit harder,without pushing buttons so fast,makes it alot less painful to me and others.If the side effect is "good players" become average,then it's fine to me,if I can enjoy the game more.

kieso · May 2022

Nope, I don't see any hint of mention regarding good players.

Only good players have master angler and I see no mention of that.

Vaoh · May 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

It seems pretty obvious Oaken... ring is designed to help people with disabilities that physically cannot mash buttons fast and continuously. I'm a bit astonished that anyone could take that as an attack on them. Especially since it will be available to everyone. Luckily they are making it NOT powerful enough to be abused but good enough to help disabled. Glad to see some good comments here.

With this item a lazy 1-bar build can easily outdamage his 2-bar counterpart - maybe not on trial dummy, but in actual content.
The Job of the DD in content is to do dps whilst there are mechanics, movement (and lag…). This ring makes this job tremendous easier. Always. Everywhere. For bad AND for good players.
With this item there will be simply no reason to play a complex 2-bar-Necro-Dot-rota any more (for example). In actual content this Item will always outdamage such a 2-bar build … whilst only managing half the abilities, uptime and APM in “lazy mode”. Its trivializing the game – and that’s not a good thing in a combat heavy, fast-paced game.

Second, this item favors heavily a few classes – those with strong self-healing and good class-spammables (e.g. Templer and Sorcs – already the most easy classes).

Third. Build diversity. This item dumps it down even further – No room for frontbar Arena-Weapons so – Bahsei/Relequen + Tzogvin. Wow. New Meta created -.-

The trivializing of the combat-related endgame will destroy the endgame community even further – nothing to work on, no skill required. Not fun.

And I don’t get the whole “accessibility” arguments.
Why the heck should everyone participate in trifectas?! I could understand this, if there were content you couldn’t participate - but with the existent difficulty selections (normal, vet, vet-HM) there are already options for everyone. All sets and gear is accessible on normal. There is a difficulty scaling for a reason.
It’s ok and healthy for the game that there is content (remember: only achievments!) with such a high difficulty only few can reach.

And I say this as an “endgame-Raider” in a very likeable progressive-trial-guild with lots of elderly people who struggle to dps – but worked really really hard to get better and we achieved a lot together. And yep, this will be trivialized too. Very unhealthy item in my opinion.

"Accessibility" in this context does not mean "I can't play Vet HM trials or get trifecta achievements."

It means something like "If I do the traditional two-bar rotation with light attack weaving, my hands hurt a lot."

One-bar builds have long been used by players who have physical reasons for not being able to play the traditional way ESO expects players to be able to fight, i.e. two bars, swapping, and high APM. Those one bar build options were pretty limited, so this opens up a variety of options for those players.

It's about making ESO's combat physically accessible to players who struggle with the bar-swapping high APM design, not about giving them a ticket to end-game achievements and scorepushing.

If there’s ever been a ticket to end-game achievements this is it though lol. There’s a difference between making a BiS set for “one bar” builds, and making a set that is so powerful we will consider it equal to or stronger than “two bar” builds in most content, particularly trifectas. The amount of benefits is insane.

FYI they release OP Mythics to sell content. In 3-6 months it gets nerfed. Helping people with difficulties is not a factor.

When ZOS nerfed heavy attack builds there were people on here saying they were bullying players with disabilities... wonder how Oakensoul will go over for these players

RisenEclipse · May 2022

I laughed when I saw that post lol I wouldn't take it so personally. 😂

xXSilverDragonXx · May 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

No, you're reading in to it way too much. They're using the language we ourselves use in order to communicate their intentions.

I am sure those words are chosen in humor and jest. But there are people who will read something and see it as an attack. :shrugs:

Merforum · May 2022

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If I have a disability and I can not press 2 buttons at the exactly precise time, I can not perform a bunny-hop jumping reliably. It makes me less competitive in PvP. Will I also get some kind of macro mythic ?

Merforum wrote: »

It seems pretty obvious Oaken... ring is designed to help people with disabilities that physically cannot mash buttons fast and continuously.

Nothing against people with disabilities. It sucks for them, I get it. But accessibly & disability problems should be solved through using different controller types, different imputs, alternative UI settings (color blind mode or larger fonts for example) and other noninvasive methods.

It should never be done through actual in-game balance changes. It is a terrible idea & I am still surprised that they are even mentioning it in a dev comment under Oakensoul changes... Because it is not a rocket science to figure out that Oaken will be used by um... non-disable players too...

You are almost correct. I would prefer ZOS actually fix LA by putting in on same GCD, and add a cap to w/s damage and crit chance to reducer the power creep but if we can get that and they took about HA builds, this seems like a nice hopefully interim fix.

BTW if you think people with disabilities haven't already done everything possible like play on a substandard controller with bad bar swap layout etc, you probably shouldn't comment on it. And at least for me, it isn't something fixable by anything other than slower pace button mashing. If the disparity wasn't HUGE it also wouldn't be a thing.

Merforum · May 2022

Dogvahkiin wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

It seems pretty obvious Oaken... ring is designed to help people with disabilities that physically cannot mash buttons fast and continuously. I'm a bit astonished that anyone could take that as an attack on them. Especially since it will be available to everyone. Luckily they are making it NOT powerful enough to be abused but good enough to help disabled. Glad to see some good comments here.

With this item a lazy 1-bar build can easily outdamage his 2-bar counterpart - maybe not on trial dummy, but in actual content.
The Job of the DD in content is to do dps whilst there are mechanics, movement (and lag…). This ring makes this job tremendous easier. Always. Everywhere. For bad AND for good players.
With this item there will be simply no reason to play a complex 2-bar-Necro-Dot-rota any more (for example). In actual content this Item will always outdamage such a 2-bar build … whilst only managing half the abilities, uptime and APM in “lazy mode”. Its trivializing the game – and that’s not a good thing in a combat heavy, fast-paced game.

Second, this item favors heavily a few classes – those with strong self-healing and good class-spammables (e.g. Templer and Sorcs – already the most easy classes).

Third. Build diversity. This item dumps it down even further – No room for frontbar Arena-Weapons so – Bahsei/Relequen + Tzogvin. Wow. New Meta created -.-

The trivializing of the combat-related endgame will destroy the endgame community even further – nothing to work on, no skill required. Not fun.

And I don’t get the whole “accessibility” arguments.
Why the heck should everyone participate in trifectas?! I could understand this, if there were content you couldn’t participate - but with the existent difficulty selections (normal, vet, vet-HM) there are already options for everyone. All sets and gear is accessible on normal. There is a difficulty scaling for a reason.
It’s ok and healthy for the game that there is content (remember: only achievments!) with such a high difficulty only few can reach.

And I say this as an “endgame-Raider” in a very likeable progressive-trial-guild with lots of elderly people who struggle to dps – but worked really really hard to get better and we achieved a lot together. And yep, this will be trivialized too. Very unhealthy item in my opinion.

That is your opinion. I find it amazing people think like this. So there's a bunch of content in the game that people with disabilities literally can NOT do without being carried by other players. There is an item that only slightly will help them do that a little bit more and be self sufficient. BUT NO NO, you can't have it because some people without disabilities MIGHT use this too.

It is way less powerful than you make it out to be. But even if it was best item in game, YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE it if it would ruin the game for you. I have played A LOT of single player adventure games and the 2nd/3rd time I play I usually use some mods. And there is ALWAYS some godmod that makes the game trivial. GUESS WHAT, I STOP USING IT. You seem to be saying people have no self control to not use something that would break the game for them.

Dexter411 · May 2022

You all know "mashing buttons fast=more dps" is false right? ESO has Global cooldown mechanic, You are even punished for mashing buttons like crazy.

Anyway, I need to work on my APM to get SWEATY BUFF UPTIMES because some prefer to earn things.

newtinmpls · May 2022

Merforum wrote: »

It seems pretty obvious Oaken... ring is designed to help people with disabilities that physically cannot mash buttons fast and continuously.

If that's the case, then wow, that's a really ethically neat thing to do.

FeedbackOnly · May 2022

newtinmpls wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

It seems pretty obvious Oaken... ring is designed to help people with disabilities that physically cannot mash buttons fast and continuously.

If that's the case, then wow, that's a really ethically neat thing to do.

ZOS get a lot of poor reputation for trash sets, but the put in hard work the do in making something for everyone.

We have a lot of sets to supports varied ways of playing ESO.

If ESO anything ever happens I gald I can play ESO still with sets like these

Thanks zos ♥️

Merforum · May 2022

newtinmpls wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

It seems pretty obvious Oaken... ring is designed to help people with disabilities that physically cannot mash buttons fast and continuously.

If that's the case, then wow, that's a really ethically neat thing to do.

I really think/hope this is the case. And I also hope that when I am able to compete in PVP again with it and we see many more NERF OAKEN threads, that ZOS will IGNORE THEM. And say what the toxic elitists have been saying about stuff like LA weaving, that IT IS PART OF THE GAME GET USED TO IT, and USE IT YOURSELF AND GIT GUD. The worst possible situation would be for ZOS to let a bunch of disabled people get used to and dependent on something like this then make it useless because of complainers.

FeedbackOnly · May 2022

Merforum wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

It seems pretty obvious Oaken... ring is designed to help people with disabilities that physically cannot mash buttons fast and continuously.

If that's the case, then wow, that's a really ethically neat thing to do.

I really think/hope this is the case. And I also hope that when I am able to compete in PVP again with it and we see many more NERF OAKEN threads, that ZOS will IGNORE THEM. And say what the toxic elitists have been saying about stuff like LA weaving, that IT IS PART OF THE GAME GET USED TO IT, and USE IT YOURSELF AND GIT GUD. The worst possible situation would be for ZOS to let a bunch of disabled people get used to and dependent on something like this then make it useless because of complainers.

That's interesting perspective on the subject. That makes me sad for this group of players in all honesty. I am not sure of finer details but I hope everyone gets to see joy that is eso

TwinLamps · May 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

No, you're reading in to it way too much. They're using the language we ourselves use in order to communicate their intentions.

That is not true. Not a single Gamer ® word was used.

Ratzkifal · May 2022

I sure hope a lot of you aren't interpreting too much into that developer comment. The way I am reading it, the mythic isn't designed for people with accessibility issues. It's designed to change the way you create a build by limiting yourself to 5 skills and 1 ultimate while giving yourself some stats in return. It just happens to help with accessibility, which is a pleasant side-effect but not the main reason why the mythic was created I feel.

Don't forget, before anyone can get that mythic they have to buy Greymoor, High Isle and whatever DLC dungeon or zone the leads for it are coming from. And if one of these is kind of weirdly specific and hard to get for people experiencing accessibility issues, then these people got their hopes up for nothing, which would suck.
Manage your expectations accordingly!

BahometZ · May 2022

I wouldn't get offended by it. It's just jargon, devs trying to sound hip and with it. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

AinSoph · May 2022

Trust the long-time players, they know that ZOS doesn't need a forum comment like that to disrespect veterans. They just happened to type it out in a way people understand this time.

ceiron · May 2022

Honestly we used to get some great comments in patch notes. Its not a new concept.

I do not see it as disrespect at all.

I think a lot of people have missed the boat here. Focusing on ine phrase when in fact theres so many more bigger easily fixed issues.

We should be engaging more with those who can actually help and influence not alienating them because they were trying yo be humerous.

I am appreciative of kevin who seems to be listening and communicating a lot more then i have seen from the mods in a long while.

Maybe try to be more constructive and less aggressive and we might get a better back and forth. Potentially allowing more use if the aforementioned language and phrasing.

If the developers are using it then no reason we cannot

PrimusTiberius · May 2022

I enjoy their humor, they pay attention to what we are saying and that's a good thing

Dogvahkiin · May 2022

Merforum wrote: »

I really think/hope this is the case. And I also hope that when I am able to compete in PVP again with it and we see many more NERF OAKEN threads, that ZOS will IGNORE THEM. And say what the toxic elitists have been saying about stuff like LA weaving, that IT IS PART OF THE GAME GET USED TO IT, and USE IT YOURSELF AND GIT GUD. The worst possible situation would be for ZOS to let a bunch of disabled people get used to and dependent on something like this then make it useless because of complainers.

I hope not!

This item is basically a "cheat" in a competitive online game - It's trivializing the combat.
Endgame is sth you need to work for, as a goal. If it's to easy the game becomes boring&stale very quick and there won't be long term players anymore (PVE perspective).

Endgame in multiplayer-games is like sports. It's competitive. And it's not "gatekeeping" or "elitists" if there are skill requirements for participants in a competitive league. like in sports.

I think a lot of "endgame" players will leave ESO for good if this is the direction of the game. I will.

Cheyenne · May 2022

I would hate to lose the little spots of humor they throw into the patch notes.

So many things, including humor, have been wiped out these days because everyone takes offense to everything, so no one dares say anything or joke around anymore.

It's sad.

Sylvermynx · May 2022

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I sure hope a lot of you aren't interpreting too much into that developer comment. The way I am reading it, the mythic isn't designed for people with accessibility issues. It's designed to change the way you create a build by limiting yourself to 5 skills and 1 ultimate while giving yourself some stats in return. It just happens to help with accessibility, which is a pleasant side-effect but not the main reason why the mythic was created I feel.

Don't forget, before anyone can get that mythic they have to buy Greymoor, High Isle and whatever DLC dungeon or zone the leads for it are coming from. And if one of these is kind of weirdly specific and hard to get for people experiencing accessibility issues, then these people got their hopes up for nothing, which would suck.
Manage your expectations accordingly!

Good points, thanks for posting that. It's true, I'm hoping I can get this ring, that the leads will not be out of reach for me, and that if I'm able to obtain it, it may assist with the issues I have actually playing even overland content.

I AM however trying very hard not to get too worked up over this.

FluffyReachWitch · May 2022

Nah, patch notes just aren't patch notes without some tongue-in-cheek ribbing.

BXR_Lonestar · May 2022

Dexter411 wrote: »

Next thing, they will call us toxic elitsts for pulling of +120k on dummy
And it is not like most of those buffs require much to have good uptimes.

I don't think the ring is a problem. I think it opens up some unique possibilities for different playstyles. I'm actually looking forward to trying the ring on a werewolf to see how different builds perform.

You have to sacrifice a lot to make use of that ring, and if it helps bring up the bottom end of players in terms of production, what's the issue? People are always looking for DPS who can hit in the 70k+ range so if this helps bottom end players reach that potential, whats the problem? It just means more people have access to endgame content.

d.schaerb16_ESO2 · May 2022

there was a 130k one bar sorc build.. at least 120 cpm you have to pull. Dont do lightattacks, press only every 2 seconds a button and you are at ~50k. so it will not be the magic item for the "lower" players, it will be a brainafk boost to average/good players who can already weave. The skill gap is getting bigger and bigger with items like this. Damage is Playerskill Based, like not everybody can race in F1, not everyone should be able to do GS or TTT or whatever.

demonology89 · May 2022

[snip]

Taking offense with the term sweaty? Taking offense that other players will have access to a mythic that helps 1 bar builds? Claiming this mythic is the beginning of dumbing down ESO combat?

Better yet. Calling people who can only manage 1 bar for whatever reason LAZY? That not everyone is meant to achieve and complete all in game content?

For those players that do not have a disability, be humble and grateful. Ok so players that aren't disabled will use this mythic. So what. How does that cheapen what you've completed in game? People are acting as if this ring is gonna be ez mode 120k dps. No it's not.

[edited for baiting]

prof_doom · May 2022

demonology89 wrote: »

[snip]

Taking offense with the term sweaty? Taking offense that other players will have access to a mythic that helps 1 bar builds? Claiming this mythic is the beginning of dumbing down ESO combat?

Better yet. Calling people who can only manage 1 bar for whatever reason LAZY? That not everyone is meant to achieve and complete all in game content?

For those players that do not have a disability, be humble and grateful. Ok so players that aren't disabled will use this mythic. So what. How does that cheapen what you've completed in game? People are acting as if this ring is gonna be ez mode 120k dps. No it's not.

At the end of day, an MMO lives or dies on convincing people to sign up and stick around. The people who actually complain about this kind of thing probably make up less than 5% of the player base.

[edited to remove quote]

Mushroomancer · May 2022

I highly doubt that was included as an offensive jab to anyone. It just seems like the usual "humor" that gets injected into patch notes every now and then. Whether you find it funny or not, it doesn't mean it's offensive.

However, I really don't like this accessibility narrative that's being paraded around this mythic. Look, if it gets people with disabilities to enjoy the game and have fun more easily, that's all the better, but don't come tell me that's the primary directive for this item, because accessibility for any type of impairment shouldn't be locked behind multiple paywalls. I do hope this whole accessibility thing has been spun up by players and not by the devs, otherwise it's some grade-A [snip].

demonology89 wrote: »

[snip]

Taking offense with the term sweaty? Taking offense that other players will have access to a mythic that helps 1 bar builds? Claiming this mythic is the beginning of dumbing down ESO combat?

Better yet. Calling people who can only manage 1 bar for whatever reason LAZY? That not everyone is meant to achieve and complete all in game content?

For those players that do not have a disability, be humble and grateful. Ok so players that aren't disabled will use this mythic. So what. How does that cheapen what you've completed in game? People are acting as if this ring is gonna be ez mode 120k dps. No it's not.

[snip]
All of what you said is exactly the problem with this mythic. I'm sorry, but no matter how you spin it, playing a one-bar builds IS easier (or lazier, if you will) than using both bars. Of course that's totally fine, if that's what you want to do, [snip]
And no, not everyone should be able to achieve and complete all the content in the game if they don't have the skill, or knowledge, or whatever to complete said content. By that logic everyone should be able to get trifecta trial mounts because they installed the game.
Also, it definitely doesn't cheapen what some may have achieved without it, but, outside of the aforementioned impairments, it is encouraging a playstyle which is, in my opinion, lazy and most definitely dumbed-down compared to using both bars. It's the same thing as people saying heavy attack builds are just as hard as LA weaving. No they aren't and that's fine, you can play the game that way if it's easier or more comfortable for you, just don't go around claiming it's some rocket-science level *** (which LA weaving isn't either, just to clarify).

That being said, of course it's very unlikely that this ring is gonna be some god item that instantly turns everything into easy mode. But, if when it hits live, it ends up outclassing two-bar builds in any scenario, then don't get upset when people say it's a faceroll-mode item.

[edited for baiting, profanity bypass & to remove quote]

VaranisArano · May 2022

The Devs said its an accessibility option for players who don't have access to buff uptimes, group composition, and high APM.

It's possible to interpret that as accessibility for pickup groups, most of which don't optimize their group composition or their buff uptime.

It's possible to interpret that as accessibility for bad DDs, in that doing good DPS requires high APM and managing your buffs.

It's also possible to interpret that as accessibility for the particular group of players for whom the high APM makes combat genuinely difficult. That can be for a number of reasons, some of them physical, some of them internet-related. One bar builds have always been favored by players who have no choice but to look for lower APM options than the traditional 2-bar-swapping, light attack weaving DD rotations. In recent months, ZOS has been looking more into accessibility options for players with disabilities. Is this something that came from that? I don't know, but it is something that has the potential to benefit players who use one-bar builds for physical reasons.

If it were just the first two, I could see where some of the complaints from end-game PVEers are coming from. Why should ZOS make things easier on PUGs and players who won't practice a full rotation or coordinate their group to get good?

But frankly, ZOS has been trying to raise the PVE floor for years.

The big difference between the floor and the ceiling is practicing high APM rotations, optimized group compositions, coordinated buff uptimes, and a lot of experience. So while you might disagree that it's a good set for ZOS to implement, it certainly makes sense in their long term goals.

Ironically, it's another one of those sets meant to help the floor that's going to get nerfed once the ceiling uses it too effectively. Then the players who never needed it will jump to the new meta, while the players who benefit most from it suffer the nerfs.