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It blows my mind that players don't know how to LoS in ESO
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Ilumia✭✭✭✭✭I always appreciate when I get an rnd with a tank that does this, speed running just feels so smooth. I didn't know the term for it, but it's often easy to see if someone is applying this strategy, and if someone tells me to do a certain thing in chat I'll always do it, unless I have a very good reason not to - such as missing a quest objective I can't go back to.
What server and platform are you on @TumlinTheJolly maybe we could run together sometime?2 -
TumlinTheJolly✭✭✭✭I always appreciate when I get an rnd with a tank that does this, speed running just feels so smooth. I didn't know the term for it, but it's often easy to see if someone is applying this strategy, and if someone tells me to do a certain thing in chat I'll always do it, unless I have a very good reason not to - such as missing a quest objective I can't go back to.
What server and platform are you on @TumlinTheJolly maybe we could run together sometime?
PC NA ^-^ And yes, if someone says they need quest then I'll always make sure they get it done, including not dropping group til after hand in!2 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TumlinTheJolly wrote: »As title says... LoSing is an age-old and basic MMO strat for clumping mobs in PvE, and for some reason ESO players don't do it without constant direction in party chat. Why is this?
If something so trivial "blows your mind", its probably a clue that you might be a bit out of touch. Asking here, amongst people who are obviously already hugely invested in the game and super strongly opinionated rather than just asking the people you're so blown away by is good evidence of that.
FWIW, though- your mind is probably being blown because you expect that everyone else is going to have this "basic knowledge", and are failing to comprehend that people have a hugely diverse range of skill, experience, expectation, learning speed or investment.2 -
TumlinTheJolly✭✭✭✭Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »people have a hugely diverse range of skill, experience, expectation, learning speed or investment.
This is an OK answer. I'm mostly wondering why it's ESO in particular (vs other MMOs) that hasn't seen this strat popularised. Someone else mentioned that a lot of ESO players come from TES single player RPGs, which is probably the best answer so far.
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Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a tank I don't see the need to in all honesty for most, if not every, fights I've come across. Typically throw an AoE down to draw aggro, toss down AoE immobilization, taunt the large threatening stuff, and then start chain pulling enemies and immobilizing them so they can't run off.
That tactic ends up with the same effect without any real coordination from others as it's all you and your abilities.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK3 -
Marronsuisse✭✭✭✭TumlinTheJolly wrote: »As title says... LoSing is an age-old and basic MMO strat for clumping mobs in PvE, and for some reason ESO players don't do it without constant direction in party chat. Why is this?
I dunno, ESO is my first MMO and probably a lot of other people are in the same boat. Lots of Elder Scrolls fans waiting for the next game pick it up, and the solo-ability of the game attracts people who don't usually play online games. People who haven't played MMOs aren't going to be familiar with MMO tactics.
I've been playing for months and only just heard "line of sight" the first time last week watching a Twitch stream. No one else in the group knew what they were doing either, lol.
Now I know what it means. I'm sure there are a million other terms I don't know so I just stick to doing dungeons with rl friends for now.
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TumlinTheJolly✭✭✭✭Marronsuisse wrote: »TumlinTheJolly wrote: »As title says... LoSing is an age-old and basic MMO strat for clumping mobs in PvE, and for some reason ESO players don't do it without constant direction in party chat. Why is this?
ESO is my first MMO and probably a lot of other people are in the same boat. Lots of Elder Scrolls fans waiting for the next game pick it up, and the solo-ability of the game attracts people who don't usually play online games. People who haven't played MMOs aren't going to be familiar with MMO tactics.
This could very well be the main reason. As someone with an MMO background, I really like that we get to play alongside TES fans
I think you could be very correct re people waiting for next TES game, as I'd assume most of the people who are unfamiliar with the tactic are likely new ESO players... and more new players is always good!
Edited by TumlinTheJolly on May 9, 2022 1:17PM2 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree, LOS mob makes for a far more smoother dungeon run. Even for the ranged mobs, it still clumps them together, if even it doesn't draw them all the way to you. And it provides a far more efficient run, when one rotation can clear 5-10 groups of enemies, instead of having to do 5-10 rotations to clear the same individually.3 -
TumlinTheJolly✭✭✭✭I feel like RTS players (Starcraft, Age of Empires etc) should grasp the concept very quickly.1
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Oznog666✭✭✭✭TumlinTheJolly wrote: »Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »people have a hugely diverse range of skill, experience, expectation, learning speed or investment.
This is an OK answer. I'm mostly wondering why it's ESO in particular (vs other MMOs) that hasn't seen this strat popularised. Someone else mentioned that a lot of ESO players come from TES single player RPGs, which is probably the best answer so far.
Obviously you are doing dungeons just because of the reward for the daily random and you would like to do this as fast as possible. But did it you ever notice that there are many people doing this exactly same dungeon for the quest and because of this they don't want to run through, they would like to enjoy the story? Some are stamina chars too and they don't want to "burn" there stamina with running. I'm playing ESO since at about 18 months and I was in every dungeon many many times. Some I like, some I don't like and some (ie. March of Sacrifices - playing hide & seek...) I really hate. But whatever it is for the random daily, I respect the other players in the group - that means I don't quit because it's March of Sacrifices, if I see that some low level char is going for the quest I wait until he has finished all the talking and if I see someone starts speed running I may ask something like "anybody wants speedrunning?".
In my opinion it's not very polite to force other players to play in my way, to use my strategy because everybody in the group is random, everybody has a different play style etc.
And one more thing which was mentioned in other threads before: the reward for the daily random is not something you have to have every day, it's a reward because one is willing to play whatsoever is coming to help others to form a group. Not everybody is in the queue for the daily random, many are queuing for a specific dungeon (because of the quest, because it's the daily pledge, because they need something from this dungeon). They don't get the reward, they want to do this specific dungeon for a reason but are not member in a guild - so they need others. That's why there is a reward for the daily random dungeon.PC EU
1 Healer, 1 Tank, 3 DD, 5 more Toons just for fun5 -
TumlinTheJolly✭✭✭✭TumlinTheJolly wrote: »Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »people have a hugely diverse range of skill, experience, expectation, learning speed or investment.
This is an OK answer. I'm mostly wondering why it's ESO in particular (vs other MMOs) that hasn't seen this strat popularised. Someone else mentioned that a lot of ESO players come from TES single player RPGs, which is probably the best answer so far.
Obviously you are doing dungeons just because of the reward for the daily random and you would like to do this as fast as possible. But did it you ever notice that there are many people doing this exactly same dungeon for the quest and because of this they don't want to run through, they would like to enjoy the story? Some are stamina chars too and they don't want to "burn" there stamina with running. I'm playing ESO since at about 18 months and I was in every dungeon many many times. Some I like, some I don't like and some (ie. March of Sacrifices - playing hide & seek...) I really hate. But whatever it is for the random daily, I respect the other players in the group - that means I don't quit because it's March of Sacrifices, if I see that some low level char is going for the quest I wait until he has finished all the talking and if I see someone starts speed running I may ask something like "anybody wants speedrunning?".
In my opinion it's not very polite to force other players to play in my way, to use my strategy because everybody in the group is random, everybody has a different play style etc.
And one more thing which was mentioned in other threads before: the reward for the daily random is not something you have to have every day, it's a reward because one is willing to play whatsoever is coming to help others to form a group. Not everybody is in the queue for the daily random, many are queuing for a specific dungeon (because of the quest, because it's the daily pledge, because they need something from this dungeon). They don't get the reward, they want to do this specific dungeon for a reason but are not member in a guild - so they need others. That's why there is a reward for the daily random dungeon.
Spot on. The problem is very much the way that the daily reward is implemented. Many players want to rush the dungeon, while many wish to take it slow (and rightfully so). As someone who BURNS transmutes, I do feel like RNDs are something I have to do every day, and I'm not alone in this. Perhaps a solution (and a lot of people won't like this) would be to make the transmute crystals a reward for completing vet difficulty only, and let the more casual players (who have less use for huge amounts of transmutes) do the normals at a more comfortable pace. An even better solution could be to make it like pledges, where you get twice the reward for completing the daily at vet level. I would definitely choose the vet option for 2x reward if purely there to farm transmutes.Edited by TumlinTheJolly on May 9, 2022 1:33PM3 -
Furcas00Soul ShrivenI can't even get people to stack in melee when I'm tanking much less LoS. Every bow player thinks that bow passive that only affects bow abilities somehow makes up for losing short range synergies, healing, combat prayer, and a myriad of other short range buffs or buffs on narrow cones (like the warden shrooms). Or you know, making the WHOLE pack easier to kill because it's clumped instead of spread out all over Nirn. Or they get an add on them in a boss fight, and instead of bringing it to the boss where it can easily be killed or they can be properly saved by healers/tanks, they run away. Their solution is eschew everything that could possibly save them in favor of running around like a chicken with their head cut off.
It's infuriating as both a tank and a healer. There is no reason to be at range other than a handful of mechanics in a dungeon. In normal dungeons, even less so. Please stack up. Please. Stand inside each other's character models, stand in FRONT of the healer but behind the boss so they can buff you and heal you with all their frontal cones. Do your supports a solid and make their lives just a bit easier -- they're already sacrificing quite a bit to make you better at what you do please help them help you. I get it, you like running around. In group content you're a part of a team so be a team player.7 -
Belidos✭✭✭✭✭What you are describing is not line of sighting, it's mob stacking. Line of sighting is hiding behind objects to break aggro or block incoming ranged attacks from an attacker.10
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TumlinTheJolly✭✭✭✭I can't even get people to stack in melee when I'm tanking much less LoS. Every bow player thinks that bow passive that only affects bow abilities somehow makes up for losing short range synergies, healing, combat prayer, and a myriad of other short range buffs or buffs on narrow cones (like the warden shrooms). Or you know, making the WHOLE pack easier to kill because it's clumped instead of spread out all over Nirn. Or they get an add on them in a boss fight, and instead of bringing it to the boss where it can easily be killed or they can be properly saved by healers/tanks, they run away. Their solution is eschew everything that could possibly save them in favor of running around like a chicken with their head cut off.
It's infuriating as both a tank and a healer. There is no reason to be at range other than a handful of mechanics in a dungeon. In normal dungeons, even less so. Please stack up. Please. Stand inside each other's character models, stand in FRONT of the healer but behind the boss so they can buff you and heal you with all their frontal cones. Do your supports a solid and make their lives just a bit easier -- they're already sacrificing quite a bit to make you better at what you do please help them help you. I get it, you like running around. In group content you're a part of a team so be a team player.
This gave me a good LOL. I think the funniest thing might be when there is a stack of 10 or so ground AoEs, and the ranged DD runs away from them when getting attacked by a melee mob.2 -
Inaya✭✭✭✭✭
✭If I see a tank stacking mobs, I'll stack. IMO LOS does not work very well in ESO, certainly nothing like it did in WOW. There are too many mobs who just don't follow and shoot you through walls. It was one of the many things I had to get used to years ago when I quit WOW. I would even LOS in WOW when I played solo so it's something I'm very familiar with.
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TumlinTheJolly✭✭✭✭If I see a tank stacking mobs, I'll stack. IMO LOS does not work very well in ESO, certainly nothing like it did in WOW. There are too many mobs who just don't follow and shoot you through walls. It was one of the many things I had to get used to years ago when I quit WOW. I would even LOS in WOW when I played solo so it's something I'm very familiar with.
Often this is only an issue when the mobs have a pretty unique ground attack, and have NO direct damage attack. I don't think there are many direct damage single target abilities that'll actually pass a LoS check through walls / stair lips etc. Those rock crab things are certainly guilty of ignoring LoS.Edited by TumlinTheJolly on May 9, 2022 1:52PM1 -
HonestLoverr✭✭✭I know this is about PvE. But in PvP LoSing is such an annoyance. Coupled with all the buffs to movement speed everyone uses it became a chore over the years to find straight face to face fights without someone running away to dance around some tree, rock or stairs.
They should limit LoSing to the point where hits at least register and channeled skills don't break that easily from players hiding somewhere. Let all kind of magic aoe's hit through walls too, I mean its magic after all to bring an end to this ridiculous speedy gonzales LoS runaway meta even whole ball groups abuse in PvP.
In PvE its also just there to cheese through content. Yes sure it makes mob managing easier and thats the whole point of it. I would rather prefer having to tactically engange every encounter and get punished for trying to trick mobs though LoS mechanics instead of getting rewarded for it. It feels cheap and out of place anyways. Could also just code AI to not dumbly follow around every corner or behind pillars at least.1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TumlinTheJolly wrote: »A DK tank wearing Dark Convergence can group mobs so easily. Just proc Dark Conv using Turn Evil (fighter Guild) and then use Empowering Chains to drag in any that didnt get pulled. You dont need to run around like crazy and they all end up in the same place
Yeah, I use Dark Con on a few tanks. Pretty handy. I'm talking more like... sprinting through 10 or so packs and then having them all train around a corner into your AoE. Dark Con and chains are both good pulls for yoinking mobs when a pug doesn't get what's going on though! I like proccing Dark Con with Caltrops for AoE Major Breach.
The big problem with this is not all characters have the stamina to sprint that long a distance and get stuck behind the mobs getting hit. So they have to choose to either keep running and maybe die or start fighting. It does help if the tank announces before taking off.
I finally decided to try for the lead from Ruins of Mazzatun as I had all the other leads for the kilt. That dungeon is ripe with ways for the group to get split if one player takes off before the others are ready. I usually heal and it can get interesting running back and forth trying to keep everybody alive and kicking. I suppose it wouldn't be as fun if all the runs went really smooth though.
Stacking is a really good strategy for dealing with the fodder but we need to make sure everyone in the group has the resources to get to our stack point.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭TumlinTheJolly wrote: »As title says... LoSing is an age-old and basic MMO strat for clumping mobs in PvE, and for some reason ESO players don't do it without constant direction in party chat. Why is this?
Except for trials 90% of the time stuff will die before you had time to stack everything.0 -
Jack-0✭✭✭✭✭Every bow player thinks that bow passive that only affects bow abilities somehow makes up for losing short range synergies, healing, combat prayer, and a myriad of other short range buffs or buffs on narrow cones (like the warden shrooms). Or you know, making the WHOLE pack easier to kill because it's clumped instead of spread out all over Nirn. Or they get an add on them in a boss fight, and instead of bringing it to the boss where it can easily be killed or they can be properly saved by healers/tanks, they run away. Their solution is eschew everything that could possibly save them in favor of running around like a chicken with their head cut off.
This 100%! I pug a lot (I'm tank) with a healer friend, so we get a *lot* of random dds. It's so frustrating! I know it's natural to panic and run away in this situation, most especially if they're less experienced, but if dds could just stay in front of their healer it would be terrific and I would certainly hear a lot less swearing from my friend
As to the actual subject of this thread, absolutely agree that it would be great if randomers understood the concept of LOS. I've been playing MMOs since UO, I certainly know the term and understand what you mean, although I was expecting a PVP-centric post when I saw the subject since in ESO the term line of sight is most commonly used in PVP.
There's an absolute pleasure in creating a perfect stack of adds too, whether that be by LOS or Void Bash or Dark Convergence or good old chains etc.
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freespirit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I know this as stacking not LoSing BUT when I'm solo-ing 4 mans on my Magplar it is my favourite thing and the most fun to do.
I too run from door to door or Boss to Boss depending on the dungeon set-up gathering everything in my wake..... I do not have any taunts or suchlike equipped, I just literally run through every pack of mobs hoping that they follow me.... I want a big old pile to fight at the end!!
I learned quite quickly some mobs are reluctant to follow and some are not always needed to open the next door but I do really enjoy doing it!
I have sets that replace resources for critting and killing just for this and it's pretty much mash one button but when I want some mindless fighting or am working on my stickerbook it just works!!
Edited by freespirit on May 9, 2022 6:14PMWhen people say to me........
"You're going to regret that in the morning"
I sleep until midday cos I'm a problem solver!0 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Queueing as tank is great as it lets you set up the flow/pace of the dungeon and get it done quickly. But doing it the way you describe in an RND makes for a really terrible experience for lower level players, or just players who want a more normal dungeon experience.
Mobs in normal dungeons die the second you breathe on them. It is more effort than benefit to stack them they way you describe, if only because the many different speed buffs now in the game mean that everyone runs at a different pace.
My preferred way, that does not generally make anyone angry: Queue as tank, with taunt, with a self-heal/shield, good dps, and with RotWH and Dark Convergence (previously Tormentor). I can go fast, but not to run way ahead, just to always get to the next place first and have things grouped and ready for me to burn down (and if the other dps want to help, great). Mobs usually die before the final DC tick can even go off. Then move on to the next pack. Dungeon goes super fast, no one feels like they couldn't keep up, no one is trying to run past mobs or getting angry messages in chat, everything gets cleared. People can do their quests along the way and still catch up before the next boss (except in those select dungeons with stupidly long dialogue, where you have to wait at boss for questers--looking at you VoM).
I generally get only positive feedback.
Footnote: There was that one guy that one healer who made clear at the beginning of the dungeon that he would not be healing me (probably after a failed vote to kick) and hate whispered me after a super fast and flawless run of Falkreath Hold for being a "fake tank." No one died. No one else but me ever had boss or minotaur aggro. But because I had 25k health, I was de facto everything that was wrong with ESO. I asked him specifically what part of the way I have performed the tanking role he had found to be deficient. He just said my health. You can't please everyone. If you get a tank fully specced for vet trials in a normal dungeon, that is the one you should kick. Waste of a spot.3 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have always found this may work fine in organized groups with voice chat, but causes more problems than it is worth in random normal. Since there is no aggro table, only taunting, you have DPS and healers getting pounded on by dozens of trash. It just adds a lot more incoming damage and stress to pug DPS and pug healers while not really speeding up the run all that much. AoE damage skills are also expensive and longer pulls can strain the resource management of pug DPS.
Basically, save the pro strats for premade groups. It generally makes life harder for pug groups, even if they understand exactly what you are doing. The game does not really encourage this type of play and very few players are built for it. They are built for killing trash, and surviving random trash damage, in packs of 10 or 12 at a time. Not packs of 50. You are trying to min/max random pug runs but random pug runs do not contain min/max style players.2 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TumlinTheJolly wrote: »
Actually there is a difference.
Maybe it depends on the MMOs one played in the past. I certainly remember people talking about "LOSing" mobs (doing what the OP describes) back in early-years WoW.
(of course, I also remember former Everquest players loudly insisting that their invented MMO jargon was the right kind, and the MMO jargon invented by the WoW players was heresy. ) 2 -
Mythgard1967✭✭✭✭✭TumlinTheJolly wrote: »
Actually there is a difference.
AGREE! He said LOS and I had no idea what he was talking about in his post...I was trying to figure out how LoS had anything to do in context.....Mob Stacking makes sense...LoS doesn't. But, I have played alot of MMO's in the last 23 years......so I might not be hip with the new meanings for old jargon.3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mythgard1967 wrote: »TumlinTheJolly wrote: »
Actually there is a difference.
AGREE! He said LOS and I had no idea what he was talking about in his post...I was trying to figure out how LoS had anything to do in context.....Mob Stacking makes sense...LoS doesn't. But, I have played alot of MMO's in the last 23 years......so I might not be hip with the new meanings for old jargon.
Well, like I said - I've never heard of "stacking", but I do recall people talking about "LOSing" in WoW 15 years ago. So... /shrug?2
