It blows my mind that players don't know how to LoS in ESO

TumlinTheJolly · May 2022

As title says... LoSing is an age-old and basic MMO strat for clumping mobs in PvE, and for some reason ESO players don't do it without constant direction in party chat. Why is this?

SeaGtGruff · May 2022

Wouldn't it depend on a given player's preferred style of play? For instance, if I understand what you're referring to then I can see that it would be important to archers or anyone using a "cone" AoE skill, but not as important for 1v1 melee players or anyone using a "circular" AoE skill.

TumlinTheJolly · May 2022

I'm thinking in terms of clearing RNDs mostly. E.g. I'll say something like 'Big pulls inc. Don't fight until you've caught up to me and stacked on top of me, so we can use LoS to AoE everything down quickly.' After each door I'll pull everything up til the next door, and stand behind something to clump the pull. But even then, most players don't understand how LoS works and fail to stack.

EramTheLiar · May 2022

The only context I have is Line of Sight, and I don't see how that helps you clump mobs.

Snamyap · May 2022

EramTheLiar wrote: »

The only context I have is Line of Sight, and I don't see how that helps you clump mobs.

Attract a bunch of mobs, run around a corner to break line of sight, tada: all mobs run after you, around the corner, ending up in a clump.

driosketch · May 2022

Are you telling them "stack behind x" or are you telling them "LoS" and expecting them to know the rest? I ask because I thought this post was about PvP, which is where I think you most commonly hear the term in ESO. There it involves constant positioning rather than the sit and lure technique used for certain mob groups in a trial, for example. If they just stand out in the open, they just aren't listening. But if they're popping in and out from cover, it's probably a misunderstanding of the term "LoS".

phaneub17_ESO · May 2022

Aside from melee, lots of mobs can shoot through walls and even around corners, it doesn't help all that much when you run around to hide and you have projectiles still coming at you. It's only when you get out of their attack range normally they follow. Also unlike other MMOs you don't need the tank to round up every target, the game is designed to where everyone should be able to hold their own against trash mobs, its the big targets that are problematic.

Aislinna · May 2022

TumlinTheJolly wrote: »

I'm thinking in terms of clearing RNDs mostly. E.g. I'll say something like 'Big pulls inc. Don't fight until you've caught up to me and stacked on top of me, so we can use LoS to AoE everything down quickly.' After each door I'll pull everything up til the next door, and stand behind something to clump the pull. But even then, most players don't understand how LoS works and fail to stack.

Do you really type that much in a normal random dungeon run and expect people read it? I rarely see people say anything while speed running it.

dmnqwk · May 2022

It's a common mistake for people to think 'because other games let you do X, this one should to'.

To begin with, unlike most MMOs there is no threat table and every single mob picks a random person to go after. This means instead of a single person being responsible for line of sighting everyone into position, it's 4 to 11 people having to do so.

Then we have to consider whether the mobs are likely to want to co-operate or not because there's not as many doorways and pillars to use as most other games. This means you'd have to travel further in most cases to line of sight pull.

Finally you have the ability to grip things to you without a cooldown - something, AGAIN, that is not common in other games because they often have cooldowns on abilities.

Failing to adapt to ESO by demanding it play like other MMOs would be quite silly, especially as I have my tank warden set up with swarm mother to get everything to me by simply taunting and waiting. Most mobs begin a packs my aoe will hit and the few ranged ones who stay away will eventually be pulled in by the set (no sense using silver leash here!).

Adapt to ESO, don't demand ESO adapt to you. Line of Sight pulling is just not required in this game because there are no cooldowns on silver leash if you wanna use it, there are sets to group things up if you wish and with mobs requiring individual taunts to get them to you (unless you choose to wear the tormentor set of course) it's just poor form not to understand how this game differs to the other MMO you are comparing it to.

For reference my tanking experience covers Guild Wars, WoW, Rift, Swtor, DDO and a couple others whom I forget over a couple decades, so I do know where line of sighting works and where it's just pointless

TumlinTheJolly · May 2022

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Aside from melee, lots of mobs can shoot through walls and even around corners, it doesn't help all that much when you run around to hide and you have projectiles still coming at you. It's only when you get out of their attack range normally they follow.

Yes, this is true for a few select mobs, in a few select dungeons. Most ranged mobs in RNDs will consider walls and corners and run around them though.

dmnqwk wrote: »

unlike most MMOs there is no threat table and every single mob picks a random person to go after. This means instead of a single person being responsible for line of sighting everyone into position, it's 4 to 11 people having to do so.

Yes, and this is why it's so nice when groups read the initial message and all stack in

Makes for VERY fast runs.

dmnqwk wrote: »

Line of Sight pulling is just not required in this game because there are no cooldowns on silver leash if you wanna use it

Incorrect. There is a 0.8sec CD on it. Leashing 40 or so mobs 1 by 1 would take a while.

dmnqwk wrote: »

I have my tank warden set up with swarm mother to get everything to me by simply taunting and waiting

This still requires you to single target taunt every mob, so they hit the Swarm Mother block. Still handy but much more efficient if EVERY mob is simply positioned on a corner through a LoS stack.

Aislinna wrote: »

Do you really type that much in a normal random dungeon run and expect people read it? I rarely see people say anything while speed running it.

Yep! It's a copy paste though. When you blast RNDs with 5 or so tank toons in a row, the time saved is definitely worth.

DISCLAIMER: Not every group fails to stack for LoS. Some groups absolutely love it and are thankful for the speedy runs. I'm just surprised by how many ESO players don't understand the concept, as it's so common in so many games.

rbfrgsp · May 2022

It's probably a confusion over terminology. I would describe what you are talking about as "kiting and stacking". To me, LoS will always only refer to the defensive evasion tactic of using scenery to break the line of sight and avoid potential incoming damage. Other than that, you're right: tidy stacking is usually ignored in RND pugs.

zaria · May 2022

TumlinTheJolly wrote: »

I'm thinking in terms of clearing RNDs mostly. E.g. I'll say something like 'Big pulls inc. Don't fight until you've caught up to me and stacked on top of me, so we can use LoS to AoE everything down quickly.' After each door I'll pull everything up til the next door, and stand behind something to clump the pull. But even then, most players don't understand how LoS works and fail to stack.

Agree here, it speeds up clearing dungeons a lot, especially nice if its lots of ranged enemies. Now I would recommend it in an vet dlc, and its some pitfalls if enemies get stuck like tend to happen in Wayrest sever.

emilyhyoyeon · May 2022

I think a lot of people in ESO like me come from the single player TES games, not other MMOs. I learned this concept when I started doing ESO pve, I didn't know it before.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · May 2022

In normal dungeons, mobs die so fast that by the time you're done running through them they're already dead.

In Veteran DLC dungeons (e.g. Depths of Malatar) you don't want to pull more than 1 pack at a time or you'll wipe.

In some Veteran base game dungeons, mobs have high health and packs are very close together (e.g. Darkshade Caverns 2, Spindlecluch 2). In this case, it makes sense to pull more than 1 pack at a time and aoe them down.

Tommy_The_Gun · May 2022

LoS ? As if "line of sight" ? Idk... it works only against melee mobs, assuming they don't have ranged abilities. Against bow or staff equipped ones it won't be as good, because mobs in ESO can shoot through walls...

mocap · May 2022

if I understand it correctly:
1) agro as much mobs as you can
2) go around the nearest corner
3) all mobs will come to you stacked in one huge pack ready to be AoEd

This will almost never work in PUG dungeons. Tank may do that, 1 of DD may recognise this tactic, rest of the team will strike random mobs ruining all idea.

Fennwitty · May 2022

In PUGs it only reliably creates chaos.

Not everyone's on board with a speedrun, or even knows how the particular dungeon's stopping points work. Then new players get stuck in a clump of monsters wondering where the heck the rest of the party went.

Gundug · May 2022

This technique works against any mobs, and saves time and resources, since instead of wasting ground damage over time and area effect skills on a couple scattered enemies at a time, they can be dropped on potentially the entire group all at once. I use it all the time when soloing dungeons, where efficiency matters more. Once you understand how every type of enemy responds to you moving outside of their line of sight, it’s easy to set them all up to stack in the same place.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · May 2022

Don't forget that for many players, ESO is not only their first MMO but their first RPG and their first online game ever.

Killing more than a few mobs at a time can be really overwhelming not only for the player but for their computer as well.

DizzyMac · May 2022

A DK tank wearing Dark Convergence can group mobs so easily. Just proc Dark Conv using Turn Evil (fighter Guild) and then use Empowering Chains to drag in any that didnt get pulled. You dont need to run around like crazy and they all end up in the same place

AcadianPaladin · May 2022

I'm thinking of one place in BC1 and two places in VoM where this works great - solo, as long as you put your companion away. Or with a fully coordinated group using voice comm and no companions. Just turns into a mess with a pug.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · May 2022

DizzyMac wrote: »

A DK tank wearing Dark Convergence can group mobs so easily. Just proc Dark Conv using Turn Evil (fighter Guild) and then use Empowering Chains to drag in any that didnt get pulled. You dont need to run around like crazy and they all end up in the same place

Recommend Caltrops + Dark Conversion for the aoe Major Breach + DoT for trash pulls as tank

Any class can do it with Silver Leash.

TumlinTheJolly · May 2022

DizzyMac wrote: »

A DK tank wearing Dark Convergence can group mobs so easily. Just proc Dark Conv using Turn Evil (fighter Guild) and then use Empowering Chains to drag in any that didnt get pulled. You dont need to run around like crazy and they all end up in the same place

Yeah, I use Dark Con on a few tanks. Pretty handy. I'm talking more like... sprinting through 10 or so packs and then having them all train around a corner into your AoE. Dark Con and chains are both good pulls for yoinking mobs when a pug doesn't get what's going on though! I like proccing Dark Con with Caltrops for AoE Major Breach.

TumlinTheJolly · May 2022

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Recommend Caltrops + Dark Conversion for the aoe Major Breach + DoT for trash pulls as tank

Any class can do it with Silver Leash.

Touche...

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom · May 2022

TumlinTheJolly wrote: »

DizzyMac wrote: »

A DK tank wearing Dark Convergence can group mobs so easily. Just proc Dark Conv using Turn Evil (fighter Guild) and then use Empowering Chains to drag in any that didnt get pulled. You dont need to run around like crazy and they all end up in the same place

Yeah, I use Dark Con on a few tanks. Pretty handy. I'm talking more like... sprinting through 10 or so packs and then having them all train around a corner into your AoE. Dark Con and chains are both good pulls for yoinking mobs when a pug doesn't get what's going on though! I like proccing Dark Con with Caltrops for AoE Major Breach.

I think you will run into the Skyreach issue where mobs get stuck if there's too many. They don't handle pathing well if you get too far ahead or if there's too many mobs chasing.

Maybe 2-3 packs at a time. Kill, Repeat.

TumlinTheJolly · May 2022

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

I think you will run into the Skyreach issue where mobs get stuck if there's too many. They don't handle pathing well if you get too far ahead or if there's too many mobs chasing.

Ya, you do need to know which pulls are OK and which bug. Pretty quick process though... You just start SUPER ambitious and then when you discover pulls that bug, you tone em down. It's pretty easy to see how they've bugged too, when you run back to kill whatever mobs are preventing the next door from working. EZ fix for next time. I feel like 99% of the time it's because mobs can't path over water, or off a ledge. So you gotta end your pull at that obstacle.

loaganb16_ESO · May 2022

I have done LoS pulls many times. Many times people even died. Never did any of them show any sign of understanding this strategy and instead ran straight into the next group again. The only way I could pull it off 100% without deaths was when I stormed ahead so trash had time to gather around the corner. It still baffles me...
Ah and whenever I am the DD, I rarly see the tank even attempt to CC trash. At least in PUGs. Yes, I am venting. But... I also am glad not to be alone with this.

TumlinTheJolly · May 2022

loaganb16_ESO wrote: »

I have done LoS pulls many times. Many times people even died. Never did any of them show any sign of understanding this strategy and instead ran straight into the next group again. The only way I could pull it off 100% without deaths was when I stormed ahead so trash had time to gather around the corner. It still baffles me...

I think maybe it kinda works because the pugs die on the first pull, then after that they're scared of both dying and falling behind, so they learn to run after you xD

Danikat · May 2022

Add me to the list of people familiar with this tactic who have never heard it called LoS.

It used to be the standard way of clearing dungeons in Guild Wars 2 (and is still popular in certain situations) but then it was always just called stacking. To me line of sight refers to either maintaining your own so you can hit an enemy at range or breaking theirs so they'll stop attacking or have to move (depending on the enemy). I suppose it is part of the overall process but it seems like an odd thing to name it after.

For what it's worth I'm also not a fan of stacking when there's an alternative. Maybe the 1 person who gets to pull in all the mobs gets a kick out of it, but for everyone else being told to sit and wait while for that one person to tell you you're allowed to join in is pretty boring and IMO usually not worth saving a few seconds over fighting normally. As other people have said it's completely pointless in ESO's normal dungeons (unless you're doing it solo) because you can kill things just as quickly while they're spread out, and in veteran dungeons it's not necessarily the best tactic because the game isn't designed that way. Which is probably why relatively few people are familiar with it.

Overall I agree with the people who said it's better to learn how this game works than to try to make the game and other players conform to what you're used to from a different game.

zaria · May 2022

mocap wrote: »

if I understand it correctly:
1) agro as much mobs as you can
2) go around the nearest corner
3) all mobs will come to you stacked in one huge pack ready to be AoEd

This will almost never work in PUG dungeons. Tank may do that, 1 of DD may recognise this tactic, rest of the team will strike random mobs ruining all idea.

Yes, tend to do this with some groups I run dungeons with, with pugs its don't work well.

TumlinTheJolly · May 2022

Danikat wrote: »

Add me to the list of people familiar with this tactic who have never heard it called LoS.

It used to be the standard way of clearing dungeons in Guild Wars 2 (and is still popular in certain situations) but then it was always just called stacking.

Interesting. I think of it as 'LoSing' packs from WoW mostly. I've played ESO since 2014 though.

Danikat wrote: »

Maybe the 1 person who gets to pull in all the mobs gets a kick out of it, but for everyone else being told to sit and wait while for that one person to tell you you're allowed to join in is pretty boring and IMO usually not worth saving a few seconds over fighting normally.

When I queue DPS (which is almost never now), I'd personally much prefer the tank pull multiple packs at a time than kill em 1 by 1. Pretty easy to see when to let rip, just whenever the tank stops running!

Danikat wrote: »

Overall I agree with the people who said it's better to learn how this game works than to try to make the game and other players conform to what you're used to from a different game.

You actually have to learn how this game works to pull this well, otherwise doors etc will bug out.