Having same BIS sets for all classes. Are you enjoying it?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2022

What you propose makes sense in theory, but its never quite that simple. Lets say you buff Elf Bane to make it better than the current meta sets for DK, well you just buffed the damage and simplified the rotation on arguably the strongest DPS class at the moment. Is that balance? Hard to say it is. How do you compensate? Does every class have an obvious set that benefits them? No, not really. Do you buff the meta sets to bring the rest back to wear the new Elfbane DK is? Well, then you are back where you started. Do you nerf DK or buff all other classes to compensate, well, what happens when the new mathematically best set comes around. Now DK might itself need a buff, and that just compels power creep.

That is just one example, but it shows how complex the problem actually is. The reality is there are more viable sets that are with a percent or two of the "meta" then there ever have been in the past. The difference is so small that unless you are at the bleeding edge of DPS and doing multiple parses in a testing environment like a trial dummy, you will never notice it. Are you going to beat some combo of Kinra/kilt/rele, on a trial dummy, probably not, but there are certainly many options (some actually may be better depending on the fight), that are really darn close, certainly closer than they have ever been. Math is generally going to point to one gear combo for pure single target DPS, regardless of the class you choose.

Unless you specifically have sets that says something like, Buffs Nightblade class skills by 15%, you are never going to balance one BIS set for each class.

Kahnak · May 2022

With sets, in general the difference is actually relatively small between what is the meta 5 piece set and a different set. Most of the time it comes down to 2% - 5% DPS difference. So, many of them are within the margin of error and can easily be used in lieu of whatever the latest meta trial set may be.

My biggest issue is that if I choose to not use the meta MYTHIC piece then I am losing out on a substantial amount of DPS - at least as far as a dummy parse is concerned. In practice it's not quite as substantial, especially on fights where the Harpooner's Wading Kilt is more difficult to use, but it is still noticeable. There will always be meta sets, but having so much DPS tied to one piece of gear is a whole different thing. Don't bother using any of the myriad cool and interesting monster sets in the game. Instead, use this one piece of gear that provides what is essentially a 3rd 5 piece bonus that will increase your DPS by like 10k. I don't use them on principle, but I would be lying if I wasn't tempted by the easy throughput. Luckily, I'm good enough at the game to make up most of the difference on trial night, but a lot of people aren't, and are forced to don the latest Mythic to be competitive.

Thecompton73 · May 2022

I would like having different BIS sets for different classes(More play diversity)

Darkstorne wrote: »

"BIS" is only really derived from number crunching. There can be no such thing as multiple BIS because... one set will always come out on top, be declared BIS by big streamers and theory-crafters, and lead to this continued cycle of inexperienced players thinking those are the only sets they should be aiming to acquire.

You do raise valid points about the downside of ESO classes playing so similarly compounding this issue. But even if they did all play and feel unique the best case scenario here would be a different "BIS" for each class. I think @Vaoh makes a good point calling for more variation in enemy strengths/weaknesses and environmental interaction. And generally improving the variety of boss mechanics to encourage varied playstyles could be great. No need to redesign all the classes that way. We'd just have to think a bit more carefully about whether our gear is really ideal for the type of enemies we're up against, or the environment we're fighting in.

Ultimately, BIS and meta can (and probably should) be entirely ignored by 99.9% of players. The moment you realize that literally every set in the game is viable for vet DLC dungeon content and below, provided you build synergistically around it, your enjoyment of the game will skyrocket provided you love that freedom to craft unique playstyles. I adore my Sorc 2h greatsword LA/HA build with Thunder Caller and Kargaeda. Streak initiation followed by a BIG BADA BOOM heavy attack, and everything melting in lightning storms. Meta? No. Fun? Hell yes, and I'm still soloing public dungeon group events.

For the most part you're right on the money, however feel like you shoulda left out the brag about "still soloing public dungeon group events" as that's possible to do on a lvl 25 character with no CP wearing random pieces you've picked up while playing that have no set bonuses.

EozZoe1989 · May 2022

I would like having different BIS sets for different classes(More play diversity)

its not about one person .. its about every individual, all classes need own things,, and all different passive on armour be amazing .. i think light and dark magic be the new thing if it ever happens.. and poison and disease is good too,, love it but stop nerfing armours and changing them..we all different .. we not all the same we play different too,,.. we not all power hungry monsters,,

Dojohoda · May 2022

I would like having different BIS sets for different classes(More play diversity)

Am I enjoying it? It's not bad but it's not great either.

renne · May 2022

I like having sets that are BIS for all classes(Makes farming easier)

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

On PC we have addons like XL Gear Banker or Wizard's Wardrobe that allows you to swap the same set across all 18 characters (takes 5 seconds to withdraw and equip, and another 5 seconds to unequip and bank). Now every writ alt can do 100K+ dps and any content with zero extra effort or drawbacks. It's a year old build with Medusa that might be a little dated now, but just been too lazy to update it.

That would be amazing on console, but just being able to swap gear between toons on console without having to farm 20 different sets and all those transmutes is real nice too.

Jordan_Black · May 2022

I would like having different BIS sets for different classes(More play diversity)

I like the idea of having some hybridization, but I dislike the milieu-breaking sensation that I need to put a greatsword on the back bar of my light armor wizard character to be meta. A greatsword with light armor should be a niche build, not the widely-acknowledged BIS.

Nestor · May 2022

BiS is a Myth.

Unless you have a flawless rotation that you can apply in all situations, you will not benefit from gear that is 1% to 3% better on some theoretical DPS Parse.

Just find gear that fits your playstyle, and have fun with it.

bachpain · May 2022

I would like having different BIS sets for different classes(More play diversity)

Nestor wrote: »

BiS is a Myth.

Unless you have a flawless rotation that you can apply in all situations, you will not benefit from gear that is 1% to 3% better on some theoretical DPS Parse.

Just find gear that fits your playstyle, and have fun with it.

You obviously haven't attempted to get into any vet end game content with that mindset. Not only is it about the BiS gear sets but also about having the right class make up, skills, morphs, and CP points set. It is optimal or bust. Let's not forget the fact that the Mythics and monster sets that make or break a lot of builds are behind DLC/chapter content locks.

Nestor · May 2022

bachpain wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

BiS is a Myth.

Unless you have a flawless rotation that you can apply in all situations, you will not benefit from gear that is 1% to 3% better on some theoretical DPS Parse.

Just find gear that fits your playstyle, and have fun with it.

You obviously haven't attempted to get into any vet end game content with that mindset. Not only is it about the BiS gear sets but also about having the right class make up, skills, morphs, and CP points set. It is optimal or bust. Let's not forget the fact that the Mythics and monster sets that make or break a lot of builds are behind DLC/chapter content locks.

Yes i have. Which is why i see the Folly of the False Crutch that is "BiS". Sure, you need gear that matches your playstyle and build, but the best gear pales in significance to a well hones rotation.

There use to be a poster who would do parses on all the BiS gear, with MinMax builds, and they stopped because the differences in the combos was quite small, assuming sensible combos.

I have sat in a room with some of the best players in the game at Bethesda HQ doing content testing. The numbers they were putting were insane with several different sets. Because these players have a honed rotation.

If you are not achieving your goals, the first place to look is your rotation.

If you are chasing leaderboard ranks or trying to get the hardest two achievements in the game, maybe gear can push you the final bit. But dont get myopic in thinking that gear is all that matters for more than 99% of the game.

Cuddlypuff · May 2022

I like having sets that are BIS for all classes(Makes farming easier)

bachpain wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

BiS is a Myth.

Unless you have a flawless rotation that you can apply in all situations, you will not benefit from gear that is 1% to 3% better on some theoretical DPS Parse.

Just find gear that fits your playstyle, and have fun with it.

You obviously haven't attempted to get into any vet end game content with that mindset. Not only is it about the BiS gear sets but also about having the right class make up, skills, morphs, and CP points set. It is optimal or bust. Let's not forget the fact that the Mythics and monster sets that make or break a lot of builds are behind DLC/chapter content locks.

You just need a sensible build, the rest is down to uptimes and weaving. I've seen plenty of people with every single thing min-maxed yet bottom parsing by a long distance (and vice versa). The right mindset should be to get better at the basics, not just get better gear.

StevieKingslayer · May 2022

I would like having different BIS sets for different classes(More play diversity)

I hate "meta" builds much like most of the players of ESO, but I run them on certain toons. I wish multiple sets kinda did the same thing so we could at least look different on rosters instead of 6 of us yelling "KINRAS DK, KINRAS DK"

The only funny part tho is the argument of others saying they dont care because they only care about their own max dmg output. Your's goes up if someone else is wearing a set that buffs you, so you really should care about other players and their sets (only for "proper" raids tho, not whatever stuff is going on in craglorn)

DDiggler · May 2022

I would like having different BIS sets for different classes(More play diversity)

Kahnak wrote: »

With sets, in general the difference is actually relatively small between what is the meta 5 piece set and a different set. Most of the time it comes down to 2% - 5% DPS difference. So, many of them are within the margin of error and can easily be used in lieu of whatever the latest meta trial set may be.

My biggest issue is that if I choose to not use the meta MYTHIC piece then I am losing out on a substantial amount of DPS - at least as far as a dummy parse is concerned. In practice it's not quite as substantial, especially on fights where the Harpooner's Wading Kilt is more difficult to use, but it is still noticeable. There will always be meta sets, but having so much DPS tied to one piece of gear is a whole different thing. Don't bother using any of the myriad cool and interesting monster sets in the game. Instead, use this one piece of gear that provides what is essentially a 3rd 5 piece bonus that will increase your DPS by like 10k. I don't use them on principle, but I would be lying if I wasn't tempted by the easy throughput. Luckily, I'm good enough at the game to make up most of the difference on trial night, but a lot of people aren't, and are forced to don the latest Mythic to be competitive.

I completely agree with you on your points. Luckily some monster sets are compatible with the kilt in Deadlands patch now. Nerieneth is consistently outperforming it on templars which is very welcomed and creates a bit of diversity that i was talking about in this post.

essi2 · May 2022

While ZOS could certainly tweak things to make BiS less of a one trick pony.

BiS is ultimately a fabrication of the community, it is quite easy in ESO to find equivalent or nearly equivalent setups to that which is considered BiS, but if you are into dummy humping, chasing meta or progression vTrials you are *** out of luck because there will always be a meta to conform to.

Kalik_Gold · May 2022

I would like having different BIS sets for different classes(More play diversity)

I intentionally use different sets in PvP and non-meta sets (on my non trial) characters.

My trial guys gotta do what they gotta do to be relevant.

Bodycounter · May 2022

I would like having different BIS sets for different classes(More play diversity)

Elf Bane probably is the prime example of a missed opportunity: It is a set that offers Dragonknights a very specific playstyle and fits their theme very well. This set could be very unique to the Dragonknight class but it has to be changed to light armor and could be slightly buffed changing one row to critical strike chance instead of maximum magicka.

Eiregirl · May 2022

There are multiple gear sets in the game that are viable for any class. True they may not be BIS because some streamer says this or that is better but they are still very good and could still be BIS for particular builds or while paired with certain other gear sets or skills used.

The way things are the devs could just get rid of the over 500 sets in the game and set everyone up with the same sets…at least then nobody could complain about balance.

SedoUmbra · May 2022

I would like having different BIS sets for different classes(More play diversity)

As someone who kinda went overkill with the healers and made one for each class except Sorc before branching into another role, I really appreciated the simplicity of having a one-set-fits-all type deal to massively cut down my farming. I still planned to eventually get a full set for each, but it massively minimised the urgency of this farming. However, now that I've settled and got my feet firmly on the ground, I find it just makes playing boring for 2 reasons. Firstly because it means all my healers play very similarly but also because it means I'm doing the same dungeon 500 times instead of 5 different dungeons 100 times. So, I've basically started acting like I'm not massively disadvantaging myself by putting on a non-BIS set. My Warden Healer has Sanctuary and Chokethorn to match the plant aesthetic, my DK Healer used Combat Physician because the Health Shield mechanic fits in thematically with the build where I have 2 abilities on the bar to apply shields, not including the "Oh crap" ultimate that shields the whole team. I am aware that I'm making myself less effective, but I still feel like I'm effective enough and it's way more fun.

Ragnarok0130 · May 2022

I like having sets that are BIS for all classes(Makes farming easier)

Jaustink wrote: »

I feel like a lot of top end players care more about performance, goals, numbers, etc and in that case it does just make it easier to farm because they can put all the gear on any class and class will just depend on which passives/buffs/debuffs their group needs from them.

Yeah I put it this way when discussing gearing with a dev in another MMO when they changed the gearing system. We don’t raid to get gear; we get gear to be able to raid at harder and harder levels. It’s all about performance as you stated and being able to share gear across toons allows us to get back to doing what we want consistently without having to stop to grind gear as much. This isn’t too much of an issue in ESO due to the horizontal gearing but in MMOs where each expansion raises the gear cap it’s a much bigger issue since you’re starting over re-gearing with new BiS each expansion.

deleted221205-002626 · May 2022

You have to actually understand what BIS really means and how its achieved. Its not solo or in groups with everyone running the same set, its in group with everyone else wearing different complimentary sets/abilities and all combined achieves maximum output and requires a great deal of skill to achieve..

Anything else just wont cut it and IMO makes them WIS for majority of players.