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No AOE taunt but sets that function like AOE taunts? Why not just give an AOE taunt skill?
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Succuby✭✭✭Having to spend one second per target to taunt them is a game balance choice.
Really ? Than why pooling abbility was changed as example to not give us 3 seconds of MOB attention. It was the same balance choise.
And old frost stave was a balance choise to agro with HA and not use 1 skill bar.
If you change a lot and a lot of changes was made in bad way - you have no options to say about some "balance choise".0 -
Succuby✭✭✭Why by the way skills do not normally press in prime time ? The same fairy tail "balance choise" ?
Balance what to start with ? Balance between what and what ?
You say this word, but is it even possible to use it in such context ?0 -
Succuby✭✭✭The possiobility to use 1 skill per second is game mechanick.
And balance of agro is its lenth aand power of ability/its cost.
The same if mass agro do exist - it would have some mana cost and length of ability and range. To balance it you will need make some restrictions on it.
And you can same cast mass agro each second.
In current reality such ability is not some thing game breaking, it can help in some easy content to do it in more comfort and even may be it will be useless in hard content, so it even must not be balanced good and have a big cost.
So what is the secret reason behind it to not give some one even - not really usefull skill as an option to tanks to have fun in easy content ? Why such topic becomes even a problem for some one ?
To not let some one play happy or some strange desire to nerf some thing ?Edited by Succuby on April 28, 2022 12:33PM0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
To not let some one play happy or some strange desire to nerf some thing ?
You could make the same argument for PvP. PvEers want a PvE Cyrodiil. It would make them happier.
Changes like that do not exist in vacuum though. Fortunately there are a number of changes suggested that ZOS has held their ground on.
Balance and perfomance are two different issues. The fact that our abilities dont always work when we activate them isnt a balance issue and the game shouldnt be balanced around that. That needs to fixed, sure, but its not part of the balance equation.
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Rex-Umbra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeah I never taunt trash pulls I run in first and hope all the agro stays on me. If the DPS runs in first rip to them.Xbox GT: Rex Umbrah
GM of IMPERIUM since 2015.1 -
Succuby✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »
To not let some one play happy or some strange desire to nerf some thing ?
You could make the same argument for PvP. PvEers want a PvE Cyrodiil. It would make them happier.
Changes like that do not exist in vacuum though. Fortunately there are a number of changes suggested that ZOS has held their ground on.
Balance and perfomance are two different issues. The fact that our abilities dont always work when we activate them isnt a balance issue and the game shouldnt be balanced around that. That needs to fixed, sure, but its not part of the balance equation.
No I cant. PVP players need to make the same time PVE events, so it is not really a big problem for PVE players to do PVP events.
And i really do not see even problem in PVE/PVP events.
I was emperror and even was named some how funny in Cyrodill with "a lot of bad words", compared to lags and bugs
))
And i even do not make endevours now in it, because i am lazy. But lets see in eyes of reality - it is not really a big problem to make.
And game need to have some little chalange - what bad will be if you walk in PVP ?/PVE ?
It is part of the game, it already IS part if the game. You ask remove it ?
What will you do in peace Cyrodill ???
Ok lets imagen it is peace Cyrodill ... it will be like solo play game, no real war there ... . No atmosphere.
If look on it from already existing game options - each class can have stealth with sneak and run as vampire, so ... such option exist. OK may be it even will not be a problem if peace Cyrodill exist as seporated compain.
But do not it even sounds strange to you ? The peace zone of conflicts ? How about LOR, real logick ... ?
And do you really need such option to start with ?
Make character neutrally - is more simple to make. Turn of/on ability to fight with other players with some call down may be is more logick and simple option.
Turn ON - and you are not member of alliance, some peaceful character.
But even so ... it sounds a little strange, do not know LOR of this game - can it be logickal by it this way ?
Peacful stranger ... sounds logically understandable. Kill naked players in pvp is not correct, so from healthy logick it is good too.
I do not understand why they did not make it. As example to start eith some more empty compain because other compains even with out pvp players lugs and work bad like hell. Not some thing bad, game breaking or hard to make i think.
As example as some skill with calldown of 20 hours - why not ?
(That will work on not the most populated compain)
And may be some restrictions on gold/items if it is possible to farm some thing to fast this way there.Edited by Succuby on April 28, 2022 1:39PM0 -
Succuby✭✭✭Yeah I never taunt trash pulls I run in first and hope all the agro stays on me. If the DPS runs in first rip to them.
The need of such options is not because MASS taunt is MUST have in hard content.
Such skills can be helpfull for good veteran players with really, really, REALLY - bad groups.
30% on current moment in random party finder ... .
If all groups adapt and start to play good, may be such skills only will be used for fun some times. Game will not have problem with it But it can be really helpfull.
And if some one can use it and make proffit with it in hard content - it can be cool to. So what is the problem for some people ?
Game have not a lot of fun and do not work good.
Add fun cool option and if it is too OP than add counterplay to it in PVP as example is a good thing.
Nerf each update skills and sets will kill this day one day. And silly reworks.
Change a little numbers for some new sets to add a little more powered in new charapter - OK, than a little make its numbers smaller ... ok. But all other balance changes ... was not good for last 2 years.Edited by Succuby on April 28, 2022 1:43PM0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »
To not let some one play happy or some strange desire to nerf some thing ?
You could make the same argument for PvP. PvEers want a PvE Cyrodiil. It would make them happier.
Changes like that do not exist in vacuum though. Fortunately there are a number of changes suggested that ZOS has held their ground on.
Balance and perfomance are two different issues. The fact that our abilities dont always work when we activate them isnt a balance issue and the game shouldnt be balanced around that. That needs to fixed, sure, but its not part of the balance equation.
No I cant. PVP players need to make the same time PVE events, so it is not really a big problem for PVE players to do PVP events.
And i really do not see even problem in PVE/PVP events.
I was emperror and even was named some how funny in Cyrodill with "a lot of bad words", compared to lags and bugs))
And i even do not make endevours now in it, because i am lazy. But lets see in eyes of reality - it is not really a big problem to make.
And game need to have some little chalange - what bad will be if you walk in PVP ?/PVE ?
It is part of the game, it already IS part if the game. You ask remove it ?
What will you do in peace Cyrodill ???
Ok lets imagen it is peace Cyrodill ... it will be like solo play game, no real war there ... . No atmosphere.
If look on it from already existing game options - each class can have stealth with sneak and run as vampire, so ... such option exist. OK may be it even will not be a problem if peace Cyrodill exist as seporated compain.
But do not it even sounds strange to you ? The peace zone of conflicts ? How about LOR, real logick ... ?
And do you really need such option to start with ?
Make character neutrally - is more simple to make. Turn of/on ability to fight with other players with some call down may be is more logick and simple option.
Turn ON - and you are not member of alliance, some peaceful character.
But even so ... it sounds a little strange, do not know LOR of this game - can it be logickal by it this way ?
The agurment wasnt that they cant do it. It was that it makes it easier. Having a PvE Cyrodiil would make it easier on PvEers. Thats the parallel between the two statements.
Obviously tanking can be done now, and tanks can already be effective. Pledges are being done. Hard modes are being done. Trifectas are being done.
Your arguments against a PvE Cyrdodiil are the same as the arguments against an AOE taunt.
"Is it really needed?" Nope. Neither are necessary. Both suggestions are to make it easier.
"Game needs to have some challenge" I agree. Thats why I would prefer to leave the taunt alone.
For the record, Im not asking for either. Im fine with Cyrodiil the way that it is. Im also fine with taunts the way that they are. Im simply pointing out that the arguments are similar in nature.
As far as the lore goes, yes, the Three Banners War does end.
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Succuby✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »
To not let some one play happy or some strange desire to nerf some thing ?
You could make the same argument for PvP. PvEers want a PvE Cyrodiil. It would make them happier.
Changes like that do not exist in vacuum though. Fortunately there are a number of changes suggested that ZOS has held their ground on.
Balance and perfomance are two different issues. The fact that our abilities dont always work when we activate them isnt a balance issue and the game shouldnt be balanced around that. That needs to fixed, sure, but its not part of the balance equation.
No I cant. PVP players need to make the same time PVE events, so it is not really a big problem for PVE players to do PVP events.
And i really do not see even problem in PVE/PVP events.
I was emperror and even was named some how funny in Cyrodill with "a lot of bad words", compared to lags and bugs))
And i even do not make endevours now in it, because i am lazy. But lets see in eyes of reality - it is not really a big problem to make.
And game need to have some little chalange - what bad will be if you walk in PVP ?/PVE ?
It is part of the game, it already IS part if the game. You ask remove it ?
What will you do in peace Cyrodill ???
Ok lets imagen it is peace Cyrodill ... it will be like solo play game, no real war there ... . No atmosphere.
If look on it from already existing game options - each class can have stealth with sneak and run as vampire, so ... such option exist. OK may be it even will not be a problem if peace Cyrodill exist as seporated compain.
But do not it even sounds strange to you ? The peace zone of conflicts ? How about LOR, real logick ... ?
And do you really need such option to start with ?
Make character neutrally - is more simple to make. Turn of/on ability to fight with other players with some call down may be is more logick and simple option.
Turn ON - and you are not member of alliance, some peaceful character.
But even so ... it sounds a little strange, do not know LOR of this game - can it be logickal by it this way ?
The agurment wasnt that they cant do it. It was that it makes it easier. Having a PvE Cyrodiil would make it easier on PvEers. Thats the parallel between the two statements.
Obviously tanking can be done now, and tanks can already be effective. Pledges are being done. Hard modes are being done. Trifectas are being done.
Your arguments against a PvE Cyrdodiil are the same as the arguments against an AOE taunt.
"Is it really needed?" Nope. Neither are necessary. Both suggestions are to make it easier.
"Game needs to have some challenge" I agree. Thats why I would prefer to leave the taunt alone.
For the record, Im not asking for either. Im fine with Cyrodiil the way that it is. Im also fine with taunts the way that they are. Im simply pointing out that the arguments are similar in nature.
As far as the lore goes, yes, the Three Banners War does end.
To make option that do not let character be and attack others is simpler to make than pve compain, and it works the same way.
Plus players will se war around and will not be attacked.
As example some stranger in hood with no alliance ... .
So i am not against the same mass agro/mass pool or peacefull cyrodill, that will be as an example made like i tell before and will not breake the game.
It do not break logick, so it is all nice with it.
The same options already exist in some ways, so such changes will not be game breaking.
To get some PVP skills player will need to some fight the same as before, so all is ok with it and if PVP players affraid that they lose new pvp players i do not think it will be a problem.
For pve players if they can not be attacked is the same PVE location.
And some war around may be even be more interesting to both sides, not look empty - see some players and action arround in small compains.Edited by Succuby on April 28, 2022 2:03PM0 -
xXSilverDragonXx✭✭✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
And that's not a good excuse considering we CAN AoE taunt if we equip tormentor. The game is allowing us to do it but in a boring way that also means nerfing ourselves, but it goes against its own philosophy, so we get a mediocre way to achieve it, and they also break their own philosophy by allowing it, and in the end, we both get the short end. Why not discard one to enforce the other for the better? Either no AoE taunts at all (get rid of tormentor) or get rid of the philosophy so that we can get better and fun ways to do it without sacrificing a whole set, which would make playing as tank actually fun.
This is exactly my point. For years they said no to AOE taunts when they were repeatedly asked for. While I do very much appreciate there is some way to get them in the game, the point is they refused over and over but now we have to wear sets to do it. Again, I'm thrilled there is a way to get AOE taunts, so I will take what I can get and be grateful. But I don't understand why they went against what they have said over and over and then give it to us in such a bizarre way.Edited by xXSilverDragonXx on April 28, 2022 3:52PM0 -
xXSilverDragonXx✭✭✭✭✭Cuddlypuff wrote: »xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »Though I wouldn't complain if there was an AoE taunt skill, what I'd really like is for the tank's JOB#1 (taunt and hold the boss) to work reliably. When a boss has mechanics where they occasionally ignore taunt, I note that dungeon and never tank it again - and there's a lot of dungeons on that list. Imagine, as a dps, that occasionally, the boss ignores your damage? Or that, as a healer, an ally (not wearing that silly pale order ring) ignores your heals? Why bother doing the dungeon? It's not like the tank can do damage instead of taunting. (end rant)
I really like the mechanic where the boss dodges at players randomly, despite being taunted, usually because the player is too far from them. I see this in several base game dungeons and it's annoying. Why bother taunting at all if it charges at players as part of the cycle?
The intention is probably to teach DDs how to stack on tail early on in their ESO journey. Unfortunately some don't learn the lesson and are inducted into the Victims of Fake Tanks society.
Next to nobody I have run dungeons with gets this. And when I try to explain that they should be too far or they get charged at, it's like I am speaking in bizarro world language.0 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »Dagoth_Rac wrote: »People keep asking for easy access to an AoE taunt. And then say nobody has to use it if they do not want. But if it makes content easier, it will become the new standard. And then you have 8 years of content, designed and balanced around DPS and Healers needing to stay alert for incoming bursts of trash damage, suddenly being knocked out of balance. And if AoE taunt becomes standard, ZOS will have to take that into consideration when designing new dungeons and new trials. Which will result in tanks who don't want to use AoE taunt put at a disadvantage.
It is one thing to make tanking a pug normal Fungal Grotto 1 easier. It is another to make tanking hard mode veteran content easier. And you really can't do one without the other.
Plus, you can only get, at most, two 5-piece bonuses. So most tanks do not want to give up 1 of two 5-piece bonuses for an AoE taunt. But giving up 1 of 10 skill slots? Just about everybody will do that. And it will quickly trivialize content.
The existing AoE taunt has a high "opportunity cost". You miss out on a lot to have it. But adding as a skill to fighters guild or something? Little to no opportunity cost. It is like if you could get a new car every year, but your salary is cut in half. Versus you can get a new car every year but cannot eat meat before sundown on alternate Wednesdays. One is a big sacrifice that only makes sense in limited situations. The other is a minor inconvenience and no one would pass it up.
Everyone uses "it would make content to easy" as an excuse....... But literally all they have to do is boost the trash mobs damage output by a lot so a tank needs to actually "tank" mobs due to the DPS or healer getting killed.
Also people argue DPS would become too easy due to you just standing still...... Not if things threw aoe moves around forcing DPS to move constantly because eating one will chunk their hp.
Just saying as a tank that completed most content before I quit...... Tanking was really a joke. I would roll in vet dlc dungeons tank with 3 DPS and we would clear it stupid fast. But if things hit really hard guess what? My immortal tank build couldn't do that........
Just saying stop leaning on that as an excuse it's not just true as tanks/healers often get excluded from content because DPS is so high right now they just burn trash mobs like it's a joke.
But why should Zenimax rework so much to add an AoE taunt when tanks have been successfully clearing the most challenging content without AoE taunts proving it is not needed?
Hey, I admit it is tough getting used to working groups at first but I can attest that once I learned how to approach groups and adds and use the skills available to me. It ended up becoming easier and a fun challenge. I do not think we need to start making the game easier. I think we just need to help newer players improve. Been here for about a year and that approach has been working well for me.
Idk because tanks/healers get excluded from content that isn't too end?
For example we could run most pledges 1 tank 3 DPS or run 3 DPS 1 healer or run 4 DPS and have a partial healer.........
So yes tanks/healers are needed for top end content but low end content is a joke. So anyone that wants to play these roles in low end content should. Plus people complain all the time "fake tank/healer is out of control"
Well guess what if they make an aoe taunt so tanks are forced to grab everything because the BUFF the trash mobs to make them hit hard, guess what? That stops because people will fail content without a balanced group. I mean c'mon I've watched players solo content that have him attached to them...... Lol 🤣
So why should it change you ask? Because the game hasn't been in a healthy state for a long time and it's due to people saying we don't need xyz when in fact if you had it the game isn't easier it's better. Sure if they don't buff trash mobs then yes the game gets too easy.
But for far too long tanks don't even use gear that is "tank gear" they run damage buffing gear to help the DPS. Same with healers....... Imagine a world where tanks need gear sets to help them survive and healers need sets to pump out huge heals due to high incoming damage......0 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭While an AOE taunt might be convenient, its unnecessary. I can't think of a trash pack that will kill you consistently, nor is there a boss stage that would require an AOE taunt. Drop a CC on the pack and focus taunt on the big bad adds, like the minotaurs in Bloodroot.
I've seen the people who run Tormentor or Dark Convergence, but its not worth it. As a DK use chains and Pierce Armor, or with a Necro I can get a similar pull using Beckoning Armor and hitting the ranged adds with Inner Rage.0 -
Lumenn✭✭✭✭✭
✭One of the biggest issues with ESO is also one of it's biggest positives. It is, outside of a single player game, the most solo friendly game I've ever played. After years of being in a top guild for EQ I swore off mmos until ESO. Being able to log on and do something meaningful without having to organize and plan a session with guild mates who also have their own things going, or beg lfg is a MAJOR draw and probably the only reason ESO gets my time, and more importantly, my $cash$.
Unfortunately if everyone can solo MOST things, tanks/healers are only needed for extreme runs. This leaves lower level play that are not doing the top 2% hard mode stuff. As someone who's enjoyed tanking in other mmo's , ESO 's version leaves much to be desired in my opinion.
How to make tanks more relevant without hurting the solo/casual players(of which many say the game is catered to). An area effect taunt would help immensely. A tank would have a much easier time pulling/stacking everything for dps, wouldn't have to sacrifice buffing gear, and dungeon clears would be -that- much faster. Not a huge difference, but enough to make you want a tank.(tie the skill to S&B so less cheating?) Even better if a bonus were offered for killing every mob/ complete clear. Say an extra geode or so. If tanks in ESO are not going to be all about protecting the group, make it easier for tanks to "set em up" .0