No AOE taunt but sets that function like AOE taunts? Why not just give an AOE taunt skill?
xXSilverDragonXx
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I know for years they said no to AOE taunts for 'reasons.' But now there are some sets that I have seen work exactly like AOE taunts. So I'm a bit confused as to why AOE taunts are fine to have as sets but not as a skill? I almost wonder if it was just to sell content. Especially when there are some sets that help a group more than an AOE taunt and a skill would give you more ability to do your job as a tank than having to wear a set to accomplish what a skill should. It just seems such a strange choice to me to finally have AOE taunts in the game (indirectly) after years of saying no to them, but to put them in play via gear rather than via skills/abilities.
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Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only set that I am aware of that is an AOE taunt is Tormentor. To use that set the player has to give up another set, so there is a trade off. A significant one in some cases.
If that were an ability the trade off would be pretty miniscule. The tank would be giving up 1 of 10 abilities instead of 1 of 2 sets.
Personally, I dont think anything could make me lose interest in tanking faster than an AOE taunt would.
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Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because you have to sacrifice a whole 5-piece set for it, and generally it's not worth it over other sets that can buff the group (or sets that help you survive, if you're just learning). The game wants you to learn to handle mob packs (hence the multitude of crowd control skills at our disposal) and good trash mob stacks is a mark of an experienced tank that comes with time and practice, but if you absolutely want to use an AoE taunt, then the game gives you an option, but it comes with the sacrifice of a 5-piece set, so you can make a choice.3 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It goes against ESO's tanking philosophy of get the big bads first then work your way down to the smaller ones. The healer keeps the DPS alive from the miniscule damage being inflicted by the weak fodder, while the tank taunts the lethal stuff and uses AoE immobilization/stun and pulls to act as crowd control of the masses rather than a taunt.
https://clips.twitch.tv/FairPerfectStarlingWTRuck-I5tEU23y_dlUKxngPC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK2 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Though I wouldn't complain if there was an AoE taunt skill, what I'd really like is for the tank's JOB#1 (taunt and hold the boss) to work reliably. When a boss has mechanics where they occasionally ignore taunt, I note that dungeon and never tank it again - and there's a lot of dungeons on that list. Imagine, as a dps, that occasionally, the boss ignores your damage? Or that, as a healer, an ally (not wearing that silly pale order ring) ignores your heals? Why bother doing the dungeon? It's not like the tank can do damage instead of taunting. (end rant)PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo6 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »Though I wouldn't complain if there was an AoE taunt skill, what I'd really like is for the tank's JOB#1 (taunt and hold the boss) to work reliably. When a boss has mechanics where they occasionally ignore taunt, I note that dungeon and never tank it again - and there's a lot of dungeons on that list. Imagine, as a dps, that occasionally, the boss ignores your damage? Or that, as a healer, an ally (not wearing that silly pale order ring) ignores your heals? Why bother doing the dungeon? It's not like the tank can do damage instead of taunting. (end rant)
But there are mechanics like that all over the place. Invulnerable phases where DPS cannot damage boss. Phases where a player cannot be healed (and usually often some kind of DPS action to break player free before they die). I cannot recall any mechanics where boss targets a random player that are instant death. Those are designed to be survivable so long as tank is taunting and eating other damage and healer is keeping everyone's health topped off. The boss fights would become pretty boring if tank just ate everything, healer just focused on tank, and DPS were never targeted.9 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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This also if you taunt all the trash you will run out of stamina at once trying to block as you are not only blocking the boss attack but also all the trash, or you could easy get taunt immunity on trial bosses with two tanks.It goes against ESO's tanking philosophy of get the big bads first then work your way down to the smaller ones. The healer keeps the DPS alive from the miniscule damage being inflicted by the weak fodder, while the tank taunts the lethal stuff and uses AoE immobilization/stun and pulls to act as crowd control of the masses rather than a taunt.
https://clips.twitch.tv/FairPerfectStarlingWTRuck-I5tEU23y_dlUKxng
Agree ESO is not designed for it, you can pull and snare enemies so they stay on boss so the dd can burn them.
Let the tank agro everything then attack don't lay down AoE before the tank go in.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
BagOfBadgers✭✭✭Long term DK Tank main here. There is a way to get a "AOE" Taunt with 2 sets and a way to proc. Dark Convergence and Tormentor are the sets and I use Caltrops to proc the DC. It's clunky to learn as you need to get the timing right but when you do you make fantastic target for the DPS and I use talons for a debuff + chains to drag any outliers into the mob
. I use it on trash mobs in Normal and Vet Dungeons and Trials, changing to boss gear when/if needed.
I would not recommend the set up for someone new to Tanking, as when they step up to the more difficult content they won't have the base skills of tanking understood.
The setup works a treat, I use it on my DK and run with others that have it on Necro and Warden Tanks and seeing a Tank pull 60k damage on a trash mob is more satisfying that it has any right to be. It's fun and has made Tanking RNDs a lot more enjoyable.
Proud member of the "One shot boss, wipe on trash" club.
Believe in the KISS priceable "Keep It Simple Stupid".
My Dyslexia makes the forum the true Vet HM for me.2 -
z32✭✭People run dungeons not for the mechanics but to get gear, mats, motifs, etc. If run is fast, it can not become boring just because it is too short. It is long runs with mechanics becomes long, tedious and boring, you need even to read dungeon manual before doing it - feels like "back to school", not a game. So making tanking easy with AOE taunt would not hurt. Probably we would get more tanks if it would be easy to play good tank and tank role would not be broken by design (when bosses attack random players even when taunted by tank, when tank can not taunt trash because they are too many so they kill squishy DDs since low CP players has little protection, etc).1
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It goes against ESO's tanking philosophy of get the big bads first then work your way down to the smaller ones. The healer keeps the DPS alive from the miniscule damage being inflicted by the weak fodder, while the tank taunts the lethal stuff and uses AoE immobilization/stun and pulls to act as crowd control of the masses rather than a taunt.
https://clips.twitch.tv/FairPerfectStarlingWTRuck-I5tEU23y_dlUKxng
I agree.
The standard for group play in MMORPGs is tank to keep the attention of the stronger enemies while DPS quickly clears out the weaker ones and the healer keeps everyone alive. In ESO we have the capabilities to handle these weak enemies while killing them.1 -
Arthtur✭✭✭✭✭
✭If somebody rly wants AOE taunt he can just use Tormentor set. What's the point of FORCING everyone to play diffrent? I love tanking how it is, no change needed. U like AOE taunt and there is an option for it. There is no reason at all to change anything.
Tanking is already easy. Making it even easier would just make it boring. Making it boring wont make more ppl play tanks.
So much talking about those AOE taunt and yet i never saw anybody using Tormentor set. I guess im unlucky.
About bosses ignoring taunt... There are bosses who block your healing, there are bosses who are immune to damage. There is a Boss who doubles its own health and u need to do mechs in order to get damage buff. So yeah, that's all already exists.
And i wont talk about mechs in dungeons. I will never understand ppl who want to just parse the boss. What's the point of doing dungeons then if u can just parse dummy in house...0 -
pklemming✭✭✭✭✭
✭My templar uses Tormentor, Vate shield and PA for trash. Why? Because it is really fun. You use the likes of WW and swap to a proper tanking setup for bosses.
I will also add I have a DK and a Nerco(my main tank) and these use conventional sets and skills.
It is still nice, at the end of a long day, to just load a templar and have a relaxing time tanking.
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Succuby✭✭✭I think before that it is bad idea, now i think it is good idea to give tanks mass agro and mass chains.
Why ? Skills do not press good !
You chain (pool) mob to yourself, try to agr it, but skill do not work and it runs away.
With current broken chains - mass agr is good solution, or fix chains like it work before ! With 3 seconds agro.
The next problem you not always hit target - that you target.
With all combat changes tank is so broken, that aoe taunt and aoe chaining (pooling)is good.
And i do not care is it against some "tank how it must be played" opinion.
It already was changed and broken. If you do not protect it before you have no rights now to say how it have to be.
Or always protect how it was or if you protect only that you like - no one do not care, so see no reason not to change it.Edited by Succuby on April 26, 2022 8:27AM2 -
z32✭✭If somebody rly wants AOE taunt he can just use Tormentor set. What's the point of FORCING everyone to play diffrent? I love tanking how it is, no change needed. U like AOE taunt and there is an option for it. There is no reason at all to change anything.
Tanking is already easy. Making it even easier would just make it boring. Making it boring wont make more ppl play tanks.
So much talking about those AOE taunt and yet i never saw anybody using Tormentor set. I guess im unlucky.
About bosses ignoring taunt... There are bosses who block your healing, there are bosses who are immune to damage. There is a Boss who doubles its own health and u need to do mechs in order to get damage buff. So yeah, that's all already exists.
And i wont talk about mechs in dungeons. I will never understand ppl who want to just parse the boss. What's the point of doing dungeons then if u can just parse dummy in house...
OP did not suggest to force it, just have a skill that does it. If you want to be a sloppy tank and let trash mobs kill squishy DDs it is up to you. If you think tank role is fine now, please explain horrendous shortage of them. I find it very frustrating when tank can not taunt or can be killed in 1 shot, why then even to have tank in 1st place? Jut have 3 or 4 DDs with Medusa gear and self heal, things would go way better.4 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If somebody rly wants AOE taunt he can just use Tormentor set. What's the point of FORCING everyone to play diffrent? I love tanking how it is, no change needed. U like AOE taunt and there is an option for it. There is no reason at all to change anything.
Tanking is already easy. Making it even easier would just make it boring. Making it boring wont make more ppl play tanks.
So much talking about those AOE taunt and yet i never saw anybody using Tormentor set. I guess im unlucky.
About bosses ignoring taunt... There are bosses who block your healing, there are bosses who are immune to damage. There is a Boss who doubles its own health and u need to do mechs in order to get damage buff. So yeah, that's all already exists.
And i wont talk about mechs in dungeons. I will never understand ppl who want to just parse the boss. What's the point of doing dungeons then if u can just parse dummy in house...
OP did not suggest to force it, just have a skill that does it. If you want to be a sloppy tank and let trash mobs kill squishy DDs it is up to you. If you think tank role is fine now, please explain horrendous shortage of them. I find it very frustrating when tank can not taunt or can be killed in 1 shot, why then even to have tank in 1st place? Jut have 3 or 4 DDs with Medusa gear and self heal, things would go way better.
There is a lot that a good tank brings to the fight, without an AOE taunt.
The shortage of tanks is mostly in the DF. In the guilds and groups that Im in, this shortage doesnt exist. We have to take turns tanking.
Have you seen the damage 2 decent DDs are capable of with a good tank and healer? Why wouldnt you bring them?2 -
WordsOfPower✭✭✭An AOE taunt would make this game too easy. It's already the case that most people with a bit of practice can already clear all the content. No need to dumb it down even more.1
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Succuby✭✭✭DD here not only DPS solo targets.
With the same logick i do not see any reason why tank can not have mass agr and mass pooling.
Tanks get a lot of bad changes each update. Skills do not normally press.
If you do not like it, you can do not use it.
There is no point why others must not have alternates for that, as example mass pooling or mass agro.Edited by Succuby on April 26, 2022 12:48PM1 -
MudcrabAttack✭✭✭✭✭There have been a surprising number of tanks in the group finder the past year or two who don’t use staff AOEs or caltrops or anything else to grab much attention, and generally just aggro a couple things in each pull in vet randoms. I have a feeling if an AOE taunt existed it probably wouldn’t get used much anyway.
I usually switch out front bar to an ice staff on my dps and block cast skills as 90% of everything decides to pay attention to me. The main AOE spammable gets swapped with silver shards. It beats kiting circles around the tank0 -
Arthtur✭✭✭✭✭
✭If somebody rly wants AOE taunt he can just use Tormentor set. What's the point of FORCING everyone to play diffrent? I love tanking how it is, no change needed. U like AOE taunt and there is an option for it. There is no reason at all to change anything.
Tanking is already easy. Making it even easier would just make it boring. Making it boring wont make more ppl play tanks.
So much talking about those AOE taunt and yet i never saw anybody using Tormentor set. I guess im unlucky.
About bosses ignoring taunt... There are bosses who block your healing, there are bosses who are immune to damage. There is a Boss who doubles its own health and u need to do mechs in order to get damage buff. So yeah, that's all already exists.
And i wont talk about mechs in dungeons. I will never understand ppl who want to just parse the boss. What's the point of doing dungeons then if u can just parse dummy in house...
OP did not suggest to force it, just have a skill that does it. If you want to be a sloppy tank and let trash mobs kill squishy DDs it is up to you. If you think tank role is fine now, please explain horrendous shortage of them. I find it very frustrating when tank can not taunt or can be killed in 1 shot, why then even to have tank in 1st place? Jut have 3 or 4 DDs with Medusa gear and self heal, things would go way better.
Somehow DDs never die on trash when i tank. Except when They stand in some AOE - but thats not my fault.
As i said earlier - there IS already an option for AOE taunt. Its set called Tormentor.
Shortage of tanks? I can tell u why i dont use Dungeon Finder. Too many times i got DDs who did less DPS than me (under 5k) in vet DLC dungeon. Too many times i got DDs who didnt know how to interrupt the boss. Too many times i got DDs who refused to listen when i tried to help them. Too many times i got DDs who made my work harder. Too many times ppl tried to tell me how to do dungeon while not knowing anything about it.
Just because i can tank vDoM with group DPS of 20k doesnt mean its "fun" thing to do for me. It took me 2h btw. I didnt even get "Thank You for your time" at the end.
But every time ppl try to talk about it... instead of talking about the problem they talk what is "fake" and what is "bad".
Also its not like we dont have tanks in game. They just dont use DF. Whats the point of suffering there if u can just ask friends and have fun?
Tank who doesnt taunt isnt a tank.3 -
Tra_Lalan✭✭✭✭✭
OP did not suggest to force it, just have a skill that does it. If you want to be a sloppy tank and let trash mobs kill squishy DDs it is up to you. If you think tank role is fine now, please explain horrendous shortage of them. I find it very frustrating when tank can not taunt or can be killed in 1 shot, why then even to have tank in 1st place? Jut have 3 or 4 DDs with Medusa gear and self heal, things would go way better.
You don't need an aoe taunt to save dd's from mobs aggro, also I wouldn't call any tank sloppy because he doesn't aggro all the trash. That is not his job. DD should handle trash, its called trash for a reason.
DD seem to forget that they also have many options to stay alive, like block, dodge roll, interrupt (those mysterious technics are explained in the game tutorial).
Seen a DD tanking vHRC last boss (because tank got stuck outside), seen the same DD tanking Vet DLCs, so it is doable
(funny fact: the guy who did this was later called a sloppy tank in one of this forums' threads )
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Succuby✭✭✭The fact that may be you do not need mass pool or agro as skill do not change fact, that in some content for tank it can be more comfortable. Including the fact that skills do not press good and that tanks already get a lot of bad updates in skills.
By the way do not forget that all tanks get pooling ability with fighter guide skills, that was unique DK skill before.
So i see no reason not to give tanks mass pool and agro ability. That if they do not like they can do not use.
And change that do not make 3 seconds agro on target after pooling - makes such skills really bad in use, so such changes have to be reverted like it was before.
Now tank is uncomfortable to play with such changes.Edited by Succuby on April 26, 2022 3:57PM1 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pull and immobilize/snare the mob packs. You don't need to taunt them all, and it's genuinely better for your resources not to.
All the DDs cares about is having all the mobs pulled together in one spot. All the healer cares about is that the BIG mobs are hitting the tank (they can heal the DDs through the small fry).1 -
Lumenn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personally I would love it, but I've always had the traditional tank role mindset and I STILL haven't gotten used to ESO version. My first mmo I was the meat shield and not a hair was to be hurt on my companions head. Having a good enchanter or bard made things easier but it was still my job to protect everyone, even from trash. But that kind of protection isn't needed here.
ESO in my opinion neutered tanks, a washed out version of what I thought was best. A tank that missed mobs was a bad tank, but here it is what it is and at least I got the big one. I'd love a mass taunt w/o having to sacrifice gear/skill slots and go back to what, in MY mind, is a tanks job.
Even now the group SHOULD think, wow, that was EASY with x tanking! A mass taunt would ease that voice in the back of my head when someone actually gets hit. I HATE leaving ankle biters behind.1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't know that we need an AoE taunt, but it would be nice to have. Anything that encourages players to try tanking is a good move IMO.
If this happens, I would say add it to Revealing Flare. This is a skill with passive Major Protection for slotting, but PVE tanks have no reason to ever cast it. It's already strong in PVP, but adding a taunt would not have any significant effect there.
Flares are also a known method to gain boss aggro, as demonstrated by Dr. Alan Grant in 1993.
The skill should be without debuffs, so it would still encourage tanks to use Pierce Armor on the strong enemies, and maybe something like Razor Caltrops. Flare would just be nice to gather up all the little adds in one GCD.1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »I don't know that we need an AoE taunt, but it would be nice to have. Anything that encourages players to try tanking is a good move IMO.
If this happens, I would say add it to Revealing Flare. This is a skill with passive Major Protection for slotting, but PVE tanks have no reason to ever cast it. It's already strong in PVP, but adding a taunt would not have any significant effect there.
Flares are also a known method to gain boss aggro, as demonstrated by Dr. Alan Grant in 1993.
The skill should be without debuffs, so it would still encourage tanks to use Pierce Armor on the strong enemies, and maybe something like Razor Caltrops. Flare would just be nice to gather up all the little adds in one GCD.
Dr Grant also hypothesized that the boss was able to detect them by motion, and the lack of it reduced his aggro. He was proven wrong in the sequel(s).
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Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭If somebody rly wants AOE taunt he can just use Tormentor set. What's the point of FORCING everyone to play diffrent? I love tanking how it is, no change needed. U like AOE taunt and there is an option for it. There is no reason at all to change anything.
Tanking is already easy. Making it even easier would just make it boring. Making it boring wont make more ppl play tanks.
So much talking about those AOE taunt and yet i never saw anybody using Tormentor set. I guess im unlucky.
About bosses ignoring taunt... There are bosses who block your healing, there are bosses who are immune to damage. There is a Boss who doubles its own health and u need to do mechs in order to get damage buff. So yeah, that's all already exists.
And i wont talk about mechs in dungeons. I will never understand ppl who want to just parse the boss. What's the point of doing dungeons then if u can just parse dummy in house...
OP did not suggest to force it, just have a skill that does it. If you want to be a sloppy tank and let trash mobs kill squishy DDs it is up to you. If you think tank role is fine now, please explain horrendous shortage of them. I find it very frustrating when tank can not taunt or can be killed in 1 shot, why then even to have tank in 1st place? Jut have 3 or 4 DDs with Medusa gear and self heal, things would go way better.
" I find it very frustrating when tank can not taunt or can be killed in 1 shot, why then even to have tank in 1st place?"
Having mobs that ignore a taunt is a mechanic that is in every MMO ever made. It's not hard to contend with or recognize. Are you suggesting that a) tanks can't make a simple dodge roll to avoid one-shot mechanics or b) a DD with Medusa and a self-heal are going to better at dodge rolling than a player who's entire role revolves around blocking and watching the boss for mechanics? If you're worried about the horrendous shortage of tanks, which I am, why would you give them less to do aside from holding block and reapplying debuffs?Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"2 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »Though I wouldn't complain if there was an AoE taunt skill, what I'd really like is for the tank's JOB#1 (taunt and hold the boss) to work reliably. When a boss has mechanics where they occasionally ignore taunt, I note that dungeon and never tank it again - and there's a lot of dungeons on that list. Imagine, as a dps, that occasionally, the boss ignores your damage? Or that, as a healer, an ally (not wearing that silly pale order ring) ignores your heals? Why bother doing the dungeon? It's not like the tank can do damage instead of taunting. (end rant)
Those types of dungeons promote the full DD-grouping with fake thanks and healers. What's the point with being a tank if you are literally useless in most situations? You slow down the group with redonc low DPS, most bosses can be burned down fast, and the tougher ones just ignore taunts, as you point out. Except for raids, tanks could just as well not exist.1 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »I don't know that we need an AoE taunt, but it would be nice to have. Anything that encourages players to try tanking is a good move IMO.
If this happens, I would say add it to Revealing Flare. This is a skill with passive Major Protection for slotting, but PVE tanks have no reason to ever cast it. It's already strong in PVP, but adding a taunt would not have any significant effect there.
Flares are also a known method to gain boss aggro, as demonstrated by Dr. Alan Grant in 1993.
The skill should be without debuffs, so it would still encourage tanks to use Pierce Armor on the strong enemies, and maybe something like Razor Caltrops. Flare would just be nice to gather up all the little adds in one GCD.
LoLz, epic!
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alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭MudcrabAttack wrote: »There have been a surprising number of tanks in the group finder the past year or two who don’t use staff AOEs or caltrops or anything else to grab much attention, and generally just aggro a couple things in each pull in vet randoms. I have a feeling if an AOE taunt existed it probably wouldn’t get used much anyway.
I usually switch out front bar to an ice staff on my dps and block cast skills as 90% of everything decides to pay attention to me. The main AOE spammable gets swapped with silver shards. It beats kiting circles around the tank
I disagree. I am one of those tanks that do just that, just drag the biggest fish to me. Why? Because as a tank I don't have the resources to taunt every single mob. Which is why we want an AoE taunt, so that we can do just that.0 -
DMuehlhausen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's not needed though.
Yes in this game pulls are normally larger than any other MMO, but they also die faster than any other MMO I've played.0 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭If somebody rly wants AOE taunt he can just use Tormentor set. What's the point of FORCING everyone to play diffrent? I love tanking how it is, no change needed. U like AOE taunt and there is an option for it. There is no reason at all to change anything.
Tanking is already easy. Making it even easier would just make it boring. Making it boring wont make more ppl play tanks.
So much talking about those AOE taunt and yet i never saw anybody using Tormentor set. I guess im unlucky.
About bosses ignoring taunt... There are bosses who block your healing, there are bosses who are immune to damage. There is a Boss who doubles its own health and u need to do mechs in order to get damage buff. So yeah, that's all already exists.
And i wont talk about mechs in dungeons. I will never understand ppl who want to just parse the boss. What's the point of doing dungeons then if u can just parse dummy in house...
Or ya know what they could do to make the game not boring? It's just an idea here I am spitballing......
They could increase the damage if ALL mobs so they hit pretty dang hard. Then they could give you a aoe taunt...... And after that it can become your job to run survival gear sets rather than buff dps gear sets...... The. It shouldn't be boring anymore right?
This also stops all the fake tank/healer problems because we'll ya know every role is needed because things hit hard.....
I know it's a crazy idea but hey maybe it might just work!0
