Frenzied Momentum needs a slight Rework

VoidCommander · March 2022

In the spirit of "play how you want," I propose that the ability for Frenzied Momentum, the altered ability from the 2 handed weapon in Vateshran Hollows, be redone so that stacks are gained when casting any ability rather than just stamina abilities.

I have been slaving away all day trying to make my stamplar deal relevant damage values, (currently at 95k) and I can't use momentum to the fullest because my Puncturing Sweeps spammable does not generate stacks (almost every other ability I use is stamina based). At most while performing my optimum rotation, I can only get up to 8/10 stacks, and sometimes they'll fall off completely because none of my stamina abilities need to be recast for a long time.

I think this would be a welcome change to really help the set stand out a bit more, and not pigeon-hole it into only being effective for all stamina builds.

Necrotech_Master · March 2022

i actually had no problem with this before the patch because i was using the stamina jabs with momentum on my back bar, so jabs would give me the crit buff and momentum would give me the dmg buff along with the vateshran bonus lol (ive been looking at ways to redo my build since momentum doesnt stack with jabs anymore)

i think for the purpose of hybridization it might make sense to change it from casting stam ability to casting a dmg ability

DrSlaughtr · March 2022

My only issue with this is that there are people dropping 25k plus heavy fire staff attacks without frenzied momentum. If you can build frenzied up with mag skills then you're just increasing that even more.

I like many of the changed they've made but I do think some things should be harder to access if you cross over for balance sake. But maybe I'm wrong and it wouldn't be a big deal.

Necrotech_Master · March 2022

TheEndBringer wrote: »

My only issue with this is that there are people dropping 25k plus heavy fire staff attacks without frenzied momentum. If you can build frenzied up with mag skills then you're just increasing that even more.

I like many of the changed they've made but I do think some things should be harder to access if you cross over for balance sake. But maybe I'm wrong and it wouldn't be a big deal.

i dont think it would affect that much, since the frenzied momentum dmg only applies in an aoe around your character, so its basically limited to melee range to begin with

VoidCommander · March 2022

TheEndBringer wrote: »

My only issue with this is that there are people dropping 25k plus heavy fire staff attacks without frenzied momentum. If you can build frenzied up with mag skills then you're just increasing that even more.

I like many of the changed they've made but I do think some things should be harder to access if you cross over for balance sake. But maybe I'm wrong and it wouldn't be a big deal.

An interesting concern, however I believe the issue is far more relevant for PvM and not PvP. I feel like if you have a greatsword in PvP, you are almost certainly using the Maelstrom 2h for the massively increase charge damage.

DrSlaughtr · March 2022

VoidCommander wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

My only issue with this is that there are people dropping 25k plus heavy fire staff attacks without frenzied momentum. If you can build frenzied up with mag skills then you're just increasing that even more.

I like many of the changed they've made but I do think some things should be harder to access if you cross over for balance sake. But maybe I'm wrong and it wouldn't be a big deal.

An interesting concern, however I believe the issue is far more relevant for PvM and not PvP. I feel like if you have a greatsword in PvP, you are almost certainly using the Maelstrom 2h for the massively increase charge damage.

I don't know anyone using maelstrom over frenzied. Not saying there aren't any but I'm in multiple 500 member pvp guilds and we told build classes for every class routinely.

I also don't even remember the last time I got charged by anyone.

DrSlaughtr · March 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

My only issue with this is that there are people dropping 25k plus heavy fire staff attacks without frenzied momentum. If you can build frenzied up with mag skills then you're just increasing that even more.

I like many of the changed they've made but I do think some things should be harder to access if you cross over for balance sake. But maybe I'm wrong and it wouldn't be a big deal.

i dont think it would affect that much, since the frenzied momentum dmg only applies in an aoe around your character, so its basically limited to melee range to begin with

8 meters isn't that small. These DKs don't need to be far away.

Necrotech_Master · March 2022

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

My only issue with this is that there are people dropping 25k plus heavy fire staff attacks without frenzied momentum. If you can build frenzied up with mag skills then you're just increasing that even more.

I like many of the changed they've made but I do think some things should be harder to access if you cross over for balance sake. But maybe I'm wrong and it wouldn't be a big deal.

i dont think it would affect that much, since the frenzied momentum dmg only applies in an aoe around your character, so its basically limited to melee range to begin with

8 meters isn't that small. These DKs don't need to be far away.

most melee is 5-7 meters so that basically covers melee range, not saying you cant use a staff with it too, but the actual proc going off wont be able to help "sniping" someone with a long range heavy

DrSlaughtr · March 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

My only issue with this is that there are people dropping 25k plus heavy fire staff attacks without frenzied momentum. If you can build frenzied up with mag skills then you're just increasing that even more.

I like many of the changed they've made but I do think some things should be harder to access if you cross over for balance sake. But maybe I'm wrong and it wouldn't be a big deal.

i dont think it would affect that much, since the frenzied momentum dmg only applies in an aoe around your character, so its basically limited to melee range to begin with

8 meters isn't that small. These DKs don't need to be far away.

most melee is 5-7 meters so that basically covers melee range, not saying you cant use a staff with it too, but the actual proc going off wont be able to help "sniping" someone with a long range heavy

It will a magDK that already fights in melee range. That's the class people are building for one shot heavies.

It's actually really easy. I can do this on a hybrid nb. Once you have at least 5 attacks of frenzied, you start your heavy attack while moving in close. The difference is I can't do 30k in death recap on a NB. I can on my DK who can just stand there in melee and do a g heavy flame staff attack.

PvP_Exploiter · March 2022

If they change this then where do you draw the line.

Does AY need changing to work with all melee attacks?
Does Burning Spellweave need to proc off of all damage rather than only flame?

There's basically no good reason to run Forward Momentum or Rally on a magicka build.

This isn't aimed directly at you but "play how you want" and catering to player requests is causing so many issues in the game.

Two patches ago they wanted to decrease DPS, they tried to by capping crit damage. At the same time homogenised set and armour bonuses so DPS went up. Then the past two patches they continued the homogenisation and DPS went up again both times, and then there's a section of the community who complain there's now no class or mag/Stam identity.

It was designed for a purpose and it should stay that way.

VoidCommander · March 2022

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

If they change this then where do you draw the line.

Does AY need changing to work with all melee attacks?
Does Burning Spellweave need to proc off of all damage rather than only flame?

There's basically no good reason to run Forward Momentum or Rally on a magicka build.

This isn't aimed directly at you but "play how you want" and catering to player requests is causing so many issues in the game.

Two patches ago they wanted to decrease DPS, they tried to by capping crit damage. At the same time homogenised set and armour bonuses so DPS went up. Then the past two patches they continued the homogenisation and DPS went up again both times, and then there's a section of the community who complain there's now no class or mag/Stam identity.

It was designed for a purpose and it should stay that way.

Casting one ability and getting 300 spell and weapon damage is reason enough for any magicka build. Tack on using the new Cleave that will eventually deal 60k+ damage from a single cast and it will be more than worthwhile. Could just nerf the heavy attack aspect of it since that isn't used for PvM and that is what I want to use it for.

DrSlaughtr · April 2022

VoidCommander wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

If they change this then where do you draw the line.

Does AY need changing to work with all melee attacks?
Does Burning Spellweave need to proc off of all damage rather than only flame?

There's basically no good reason to run Forward Momentum or Rally on a magicka build.

This isn't aimed directly at you but "play how you want" and catering to player requests is causing so many issues in the game.

Two patches ago they wanted to decrease DPS, they tried to by capping crit damage. At the same time homogenised set and armour bonuses so DPS went up. Then the past two patches they continued the homogenisation and DPS went up again both times, and then there's a section of the community who complain there's now no class or mag/Stam identity.

It was designed for a purpose and it should stay that way.

Casting one ability and getting 300 spell and weapon damage is reason enough for any magicka build. Tack on using the new Cleave that will eventually deal 60k+ damage from a single cast and it will be more than worthwhile. Could just nerf the heavy attack aspect of it since that isn't used for PvM and that is what I want to use it for.

If all you want is the 300 damage you don't need to change it at all.

VoidCommander · April 2022

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

If they change this then where do you draw the line.

Does AY need changing to work with all melee attacks?
Does Burning Spellweave need to proc off of all damage rather than only flame?

There's basically no good reason to run Forward Momentum or Rally on a magicka build.

This isn't aimed directly at you but "play how you want" and catering to player requests is causing so many issues in the game.

Two patches ago they wanted to decrease DPS, they tried to by capping crit damage. At the same time homogenised set and armour bonuses so DPS went up. Then the past two patches they continued the homogenisation and DPS went up again both times, and then there's a section of the community who complain there's now no class or mag/Stam identity.

It was designed for a purpose and it should stay that way.

Casting one ability and getting 300 spell and weapon damage is reason enough for any magicka build. Tack on using the new Cleave that will eventually deal 60k+ damage from a single cast and it will be more than worthwhile. Could just nerf the heavy attack aspect of it since that isn't used for PvM and that is what I want to use it for.

If all you want is the 300 damage you don't need to change it at all.

Having the magicka version, "Puncturing sweeps" as my spammable will not add the stacks to gain the passive 300 damage. Even having every other dot be a stamina ability only gets the stacks up to 8, and they are usually even less than that.

DrSlaughtr · April 2022

VoidCommander wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

If they change this then where do you draw the line.

Does AY need changing to work with all melee attacks?
Does Burning Spellweave need to proc off of all damage rather than only flame?

There's basically no good reason to run Forward Momentum or Rally on a magicka build.

This isn't aimed directly at you but "play how you want" and catering to player requests is causing so many issues in the game.

Two patches ago they wanted to decrease DPS, they tried to by capping crit damage. At the same time homogenised set and armour bonuses so DPS went up. Then the past two patches they continued the homogenisation and DPS went up again both times, and then there's a section of the community who complain there's now no class or mag/Stam identity.

It was designed for a purpose and it should stay that way.

Casting one ability and getting 300 spell and weapon damage is reason enough for any magicka build. Tack on using the new Cleave that will eventually deal 60k+ damage from a single cast and it will be more than worthwhile. Could just nerf the heavy attack aspect of it since that isn't used for PvM and that is what I want to use it for.

If all you want is the 300 damage you don't need to change it at all.

Having the magicka version, "Puncturing sweeps" as my spammable will not add the stacks to gain the passive 300 damage. Even having every other dot be a stamina ability only gets the stacks up to 8, and they are usually even less than that.

You could very easily switch to jabs if you want to raise it faster. All you'd have to do is balance your stam and mag pools.

That's the sacrifice. If you want this set to work that's designed for stamina, then you need to adjust your build to use it.

There are people mad that devs didn't make every set that gives a resource give both mag and stam. That would just be gonzo. Likewise making it stupid easy to rank up a proc designed specifically for stam mechanic to work with mag skills would also be a bad idea. As I pointed out earlier.

Put frenzied in backbar magDK. Hit a cheap mag skill like burning embers 5 times. Throw your heavy fire staff that already is murdering people with another 5k damage on top.

It's balanced for stam melee, not mag ranged. So to use it you take to make some minor adjustments to your build.

VoidCommander · April 2022

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

If they change this then where do you draw the line.

Does AY need changing to work with all melee attacks?
Does Burning Spellweave need to proc off of all damage rather than only flame?

There's basically no good reason to run Forward Momentum or Rally on a magicka build.

This isn't aimed directly at you but "play how you want" and catering to player requests is causing so many issues in the game.

Two patches ago they wanted to decrease DPS, they tried to by capping crit damage. At the same time homogenised set and armour bonuses so DPS went up. Then the past two patches they continued the homogenisation and DPS went up again both times, and then there's a section of the community who complain there's now no class or mag/Stam identity.

It was designed for a purpose and it should stay that way.

Casting one ability and getting 300 spell and weapon damage is reason enough for any magicka build. Tack on using the new Cleave that will eventually deal 60k+ damage from a single cast and it will be more than worthwhile. Could just nerf the heavy attack aspect of it since that isn't used for PvM and that is what I want to use it for.

If all you want is the 300 damage you don't need to change it at all.

Having the magicka version, "Puncturing sweeps" as my spammable will not add the stacks to gain the passive 300 damage. Even having every other dot be a stamina ability only gets the stacks up to 8, and they are usually even less than that.

You could very easily switch to jabs if you want to raise it faster. All you'd have to do is balance your stam and mag pools.

That's the sacrifice. If you want this set to work that's designed for stamina, then you need to adjust your build to use it.

There are people mad that devs didn't make every set that gives a resource give both mag and stam. That would just be gonzo. Likewise making it stupid easy to rank up a proc designed specifically for stam mechanic to work with mag skills would also be a bad idea. As I pointed out earlier.

Put frenzied in backbar magDK. Hit a cheap mag skill like burning embers 5 times. Throw your heavy fire staff that already is murdering people with another 5k damage on top.

It's balanced for stam melee, not mag ranged. So to use it you take to make some minor adjustments to your build.

Again, I wanted to use the magicka version of Jabs for PvE healing. Obviously I can just switch to stamina Jabs and it would work just fine. The problem I'm having is that I want to get the passive 300 weapon/spell damage buff while using Puncturing Sweeps and therefore getting my 40% healing from its damage.

MashmalloMan · April 2022

I agree, if you want resources and resource cost of skills to be the primary decision for our builds rather than scaling, locking off sets and abilities to the casting of stamina or magicka specific skills is very odd.

Thats a round about way of saying I want them to change Crystal Frags to have a 35% chance to grant insta Frags from Stamina AND Magicka costing skills.

Will I use it? Probably not. I'm happy to use Haunting Curse as my delayed burst skill, it's probably better anyway, but the option would nice to see for some interesting builds. Making arbitrary rulesets that apply to specific costing skills is very odd when the set bonus works for both, eg Vat 2H or Crystal Frags.

A set that procs burning and a damage bonus like Burning Spellweave is where I draw the line. The entire identity behind the set is fire and fire is not hard to proc once with a 100% chance.

In the case of Forward Momentum or Crystal Frags, it's more tedious of a condition, it's frequent and something that you constantly have to do.

Not really sure why people would be worried about magicka toons. A change like this benefits hybrids and stamina toons more than magicka as magicka wouldn't usually sacrifice an entire weapon and skill slot for a set effect like this or for Rally when they have reliable burst heals that don't require build up or a specific weapon type to use. 8m is pretty good range, but it's still borderline melee range to which only Mag DK or Mag Templar would use effectively and they're better off using DW + Resto/S+B than 2H + Resto/S+B.

With skills dynamically scaling a change like this would be a nice quality of life feature to open things up a little, but I don't think it would ruin anything balance wise.

DrSlaughtr · April 2022

VoidCommander wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

If they change this then where do you draw the line.

Does AY need changing to work with all melee attacks?
Does Burning Spellweave need to proc off of all damage rather than only flame?

There's basically no good reason to run Forward Momentum or Rally on a magicka build.

This isn't aimed directly at you but "play how you want" and catering to player requests is causing so many issues in the game.

Two patches ago they wanted to decrease DPS, they tried to by capping crit damage. At the same time homogenised set and armour bonuses so DPS went up. Then the past two patches they continued the homogenisation and DPS went up again both times, and then there's a section of the community who complain there's now no class or mag/Stam identity.

It was designed for a purpose and it should stay that way.

Casting one ability and getting 300 spell and weapon damage is reason enough for any magicka build. Tack on using the new Cleave that will eventually deal 60k+ damage from a single cast and it will be more than worthwhile. Could just nerf the heavy attack aspect of it since that isn't used for PvM and that is what I want to use it for.

If all you want is the 300 damage you don't need to change it at all.

Having the magicka version, "Puncturing sweeps" as my spammable will not add the stacks to gain the passive 300 damage. Even having every other dot be a stamina ability only gets the stacks up to 8, and they are usually even less than that.

You could very easily switch to jabs if you want to raise it faster. All you'd have to do is balance your stam and mag pools.

That's the sacrifice. If you want this set to work that's designed for stamina, then you need to adjust your build to use it.

There are people mad that devs didn't make every set that gives a resource give both mag and stam. That would just be gonzo. Likewise making it stupid easy to rank up a proc designed specifically for stam mechanic to work with mag skills would also be a bad idea. As I pointed out earlier.

Put frenzied in backbar magDK. Hit a cheap mag skill like burning embers 5 times. Throw your heavy fire staff that already is murdering people with another 5k damage on top.

It's balanced for stam melee, not mag ranged. So to use it you take to make some minor adjustments to your build.

Again, I wanted to use the magicka version of Jabs for PvE healing. Obviously I can just switch to stamina Jabs and it would work just fine. The problem I'm having is that I want to get the passive 300 weapon/spell damage buff while using Puncturing Sweeps and therefore getting my 40% healing from its damage.

Don't you think that maybe the reason why they only added sorcery and brutality to jabs is because the free damage buff would be too strong with the heal for sweeps?

VoidCommander · April 2022

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

If they change this then where do you draw the line.

Does AY need changing to work with all melee attacks?
Does Burning Spellweave need to proc off of all damage rather than only flame?

There's basically no good reason to run Forward Momentum or Rally on a magicka build.

This isn't aimed directly at you but "play how you want" and catering to player requests is causing so many issues in the game.

Two patches ago they wanted to decrease DPS, they tried to by capping crit damage. At the same time homogenised set and armour bonuses so DPS went up. Then the past two patches they continued the homogenisation and DPS went up again both times, and then there's a section of the community who complain there's now no class or mag/Stam identity.

It was designed for a purpose and it should stay that way.

Casting one ability and getting 300 spell and weapon damage is reason enough for any magicka build. Tack on using the new Cleave that will eventually deal 60k+ damage from a single cast and it will be more than worthwhile. Could just nerf the heavy attack aspect of it since that isn't used for PvM and that is what I want to use it for.

If all you want is the 300 damage you don't need to change it at all.

Having the magicka version, "Puncturing sweeps" as my spammable will not add the stacks to gain the passive 300 damage. Even having every other dot be a stamina ability only gets the stacks up to 8, and they are usually even less than that.

You could very easily switch to jabs if you want to raise it faster. All you'd have to do is balance your stam and mag pools.

That's the sacrifice. If you want this set to work that's designed for stamina, then you need to adjust your build to use it.

There are people mad that devs didn't make every set that gives a resource give both mag and stam. That would just be gonzo. Likewise making it stupid easy to rank up a proc designed specifically for stam mechanic to work with mag skills would also be a bad idea. As I pointed out earlier.

Put frenzied in backbar magDK. Hit a cheap mag skill like burning embers 5 times. Throw your heavy fire staff that already is murdering people with another 5k damage on top.

It's balanced for stam melee, not mag ranged. So to use it you take to make some minor adjustments to your build.

Again, I wanted to use the magicka version of Jabs for PvE healing. Obviously I can just switch to stamina Jabs and it would work just fine. The problem I'm having is that I want to get the passive 300 weapon/spell damage buff while using Puncturing Sweeps and therefore getting my 40% healing from its damage.

Don't you think that maybe the reason why they only added sorcery and brutality to jabs is because the free damage buff would be too strong with the heal for sweeps?

They added sorcery to jabs because that is what they did with every other ability. sorcery/brutality are not game-breaking buffs given that they can be sourced from so many things for very long durations.

That buff wouldn't be added JUST by casting Puncturing Sweep, I just want the ability of Puncturing Sweep to generate stacks. However the good news is that apparently the reason I wasn't reaching 10 stacks is because Frenzied Momentum wasn't working correctly this patch. They mentioned the fix in the patch notes for the PTS on Update 34.

DrSlaughtr · April 2022

VoidCommander wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

If they change this then where do you draw the line.

Does AY need changing to work with all melee attacks?
Does Burning Spellweave need to proc off of all damage rather than only flame?

There's basically no good reason to run Forward Momentum or Rally on a magicka build.

This isn't aimed directly at you but "play how you want" and catering to player requests is causing so many issues in the game.

Two patches ago they wanted to decrease DPS, they tried to by capping crit damage. At the same time homogenised set and armour bonuses so DPS went up. Then the past two patches they continued the homogenisation and DPS went up again both times, and then there's a section of the community who complain there's now no class or mag/Stam identity.

It was designed for a purpose and it should stay that way.

Casting one ability and getting 300 spell and weapon damage is reason enough for any magicka build. Tack on using the new Cleave that will eventually deal 60k+ damage from a single cast and it will be more than worthwhile. Could just nerf the heavy attack aspect of it since that isn't used for PvM and that is what I want to use it for.

If all you want is the 300 damage you don't need to change it at all.

Having the magicka version, "Puncturing sweeps" as my spammable will not add the stacks to gain the passive 300 damage. Even having every other dot be a stamina ability only gets the stacks up to 8, and they are usually even less than that.

You could very easily switch to jabs if you want to raise it faster. All you'd have to do is balance your stam and mag pools.

That's the sacrifice. If you want this set to work that's designed for stamina, then you need to adjust your build to use it.

There are people mad that devs didn't make every set that gives a resource give both mag and stam. That would just be gonzo. Likewise making it stupid easy to rank up a proc designed specifically for stam mechanic to work with mag skills would also be a bad idea. As I pointed out earlier.

Put frenzied in backbar magDK. Hit a cheap mag skill like burning embers 5 times. Throw your heavy fire staff that already is murdering people with another 5k damage on top.

It's balanced for stam melee, not mag ranged. So to use it you take to make some minor adjustments to your build.

Again, I wanted to use the magicka version of Jabs for PvE healing. Obviously I can just switch to stamina Jabs and it would work just fine. The problem I'm having is that I want to get the passive 300 weapon/spell damage buff while using Puncturing Sweeps and therefore getting my 40% healing from its damage.

Don't you think that maybe the reason why they only added sorcery and brutality to jabs is because the free damage buff would be too strong with the heal for sweeps?

They added sorcery to jabs because that is what they did with every other ability. sorcery/brutality are not game-breaking buffs given that they can be sourced from so many things for very long durations.

That buff wouldn't be added JUST by casting Puncturing Sweep, I just want the ability of Puncturing Sweep to generate stacks. However the good news is that apparently the reason I wasn't reaching 10 stacks is because Frenzied Momentum wasn't working correctly this patch. They mentioned the fix in the patch notes for the PTS on Update 34.

Let me clarify.

They likely have sorcery/brutality on jabs only because the heal on sweeps is too strong to also have that buff. You yourself said you want the heal.