Harrowstorms should scale to the number of players

joseayalac · April 2022

or make the rewards be the thing that scales

SilverBride · April 2022

joseayalac wrote: »

or make the rewards be the thing that scales

If there are X amount of players in the zone that number isn't going to increase just because of better rewards. And even if it would draw in more players to farm them it would just turn it into Alikr 2.

This suggestion isn't about creating a farming grounds, but rather just being able to experience the zone.

Inaya · April 2022

Amottica wrote: »

RisenEclipse wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

RisenEclipse wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think all world bosses and this type of event should require a group and never soloable. It should require bringing players together to complete.

Again, although good in theory, poor in actual reality. As it requires players to consistently be doing those bosses or have enough interest to generate groups for them consistently. Which is not the case. If there were consistent groups going for them, or enough interest after they are no longer new and shiny, then this wouldn't be an issue. But that's not what's happening right now. So your suggestion isn't helpful or realistic in the slightest. All that is happening is newer players doing these content have a significantly more difficult time doing them, then those that did them when the zone was flooded on release. This could be eased by simply giving way better drop rewards, or doing something to encourage consistent activity in these zones years after they were released. Which is why posts like these have been made to reduce the difficulty of these world events once the chapter is old news, and there isn't enough people in the zones doing these activities to support the higher difficulty of the bosses.

It works great in theory and practice. It does not require people to be consistently killing the boss as it merely requires a player to be part of a guild with players who are actually active in that guild. Then just call out or set up an event with the guild to do WBs and world events. I have seen it work amazingly well doing it both ways. I have also seen this repeated in previous games I played where WBs require groups.

Dynamic scaling makes the world events that have it too easy and there is, and will always be, a cap to the dynamic scaling making it pretty much pointless. It is meaningless to solo a dolmen and it would be sad for the game to see the newer zone world events trivialized in the same manner.

So basically you are saying that it should be a requirement for any player to do anything in the basic OVERWORLD, is to be a part of a guild? That guilds need to be a mandatory requirement to do basic content because zones are dead and don't generate the people needed to do that content on their own? Do you not see the problem with that? You do understand that not everyone wants to be apart of a guild, and that saying you must join guilds due to issues with even getting pugs to form for basic zone content sounds really wrong. Because that is precisely what you're suggesting. I should not have to join a guild JUST to kill dragons in Elsweyr. I should not have to join a guild to complete the Western Skyrim map. The content itself should generate its own population to complete the content, as it was designed to. But it's not. So when something doesn't work as intended it needs to be adjusted to work. HS and dragons do not have the interest generated enough to have stable groups completing them. I had more people joining me for regular dolmens (not talking about Alikr) then I do for HS. So yeah, despite what you're saying, I still say that the overland events should be adjusted so it's difficulty can depend on how many people are actually doing them.

I clearly did not even begin to suggest that it should be a requirement to do ANYTHING in OVERWORLD one must be part of a guild. I obviously spoke only about world bosses and the zone world events. There is considerable content in each zone beyond that.

Further, you do not have to join a guild to just kill dragons but I have seen it is the easiest solution. This is an MMORPG, not a single-player game so it makes sense to have such content that requires some grouping regardless if it is through a guild or not. The base game WBs and dolmens that can be soloed are trivial and pretty much meaningless and it would be sad to see more of the game become a joke like they are.

And that's great except that what you have now is dead content with Harrowstorms and Dragons. Hanging onto "this is an MMORPG and you should have to group for things like this" is pointless if all you are doing is keeping content dead.

This is a play the way you want MMORPG and the fact that a great number of people cannot do Dragons and Harrowstorms because there is not enough interest is kind of silly.

Dragonredux · April 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

The main obstacle to soloing them/doing them with small groups are the big adds that the ghosts summon. This is exponentially harder with too few people. The worse you do, the harder and harder it gets.

Compare this to dragons, which are hard to solo, but don't have a mechanic that punishes you as much because it builds in difficulty the worse you do.

One potential fix would be to adjust the rate or amount of ghost spawns based on the amount of players. Or, adjust how many ghosts are required to summon an add based on the amount of players.

I actually think the bleed attack the dragons do are worse than the ghosts. You can get your companion to hold the ghosts, but they die to the chomp of the dragon. The dragon also has those skeleton spawns which have very hard heavy attacks of the chomps and bleeds of the dragon. I personally think the Harrowstorms are easier to solo.

Honestly if the dragons didn't spawn bone colossus on a small group they be much much manageable. Aside from the frost dragon (because he has very janky instant snaps) you can kite around them and dodge their attacks when they about to snap you on a squisher toon.
Companions are worthless for tanking since the game doesn't register their block for whatever reason.

I'm all for scaling it's long overdue. Same for Harrowstorms actively gets harder the longer/worse you do.

NeeScrolls · April 2022

LalMirchi wrote: »

One word: Yes

One word: No

From a purely coding standpoint, i don't think it would even be possible , since what happens when a couple players start the 'Harrowstorm' event (remember, these types of group content are meant to be EVENTS ) and then randomly a big group of 12 shows up to kill the already scaled-down version in a matter of seconds.

Some "event" , they would say. And gosh the exploit potential.

Not to mention the added server-stress from having to constantly run some version of 'player proximity' code detection 24/7, so that the event-code would know how many (and how powerful) of spawns & rewards to produce.

It just isn't practical for overland zones, imo. (this is what instances are for )

I agree sometimes, in certain maps, it can be frustrating to ask in zone-chat "anyone wanna group for __ X ?" and hear *crickets* ...but...well... this is the nature of MMO's. Gotta wait patiently for fellow gamers to cooperate on common goals.

RL society works this way too. Ideally.

SilverBride · April 2022

NeeScrolls wrote: »

From a purely coding standpoint, i don't think it would even be possible , since what happens when a couple players start the 'Harrowstorm' event (remember, these types of group content are meant to be EVENTS ) and then randomly a big group of 12 shows up to kill the already scaled-down version in a matter of seconds.goals.

This wouldn't be an issue if big groups of 12 randomly showed up. This doesn't happen now that this is an older and less active zone.

NeeScrolls wrote: »

I agree sometimes, in certain maps, it can be frustrating to ask in zone-chat "anyone wanna group for __ X ?" and hear *crickets* ...but...well... this is the nature of MMO's. Gotta wait patiently for fellow gamers to cooperate on common goals.

There need to be adequate numbers of players in the zone to form a group large enough to handle these at their current difficulty. That is rarely the case now.

xaraan · April 2022

Yea, I'm all for challenging content, but zos should take into account that zones die out when there isn't an event and they aren't the new thing anymore.

There is a reason most of the time you'll see harrowstorms and dragons not being done at all in those zones anymore.

Even if you are someone who is all, "it's easy to solo" - the rewards aren't worth the effort.

ZOS_GregoryV · April 2022

Greetings all,

Upon review, we would like to remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil, constructive, and within the Community Rules. Flaming is a violation of the rules, and is stated as follows:

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Arunei · April 2022

Amottica wrote: »

I think all world bosses and this type of event should require a group and never soloable. It should require bringing players together to complete.

How often do you do Geysers, Dragons, Harrowstorms, and/or Deadlands Portals? Outside of events that give extra drops for doing those activities, that is.

Amottica · April 2022

Inaya wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

RisenEclipse wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

RisenEclipse wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think all world bosses and this type of event should require a group and never soloable. It should require bringing players together to complete.

Again, although good in theory, poor in actual reality. As it requires players to consistently be doing those bosses or have enough interest to generate groups for them consistently. Which is not the case. If there were consistent groups going for them, or enough interest after they are no longer new and shiny, then this wouldn't be an issue. But that's not what's happening right now. So your suggestion isn't helpful or realistic in the slightest. All that is happening is newer players doing these content have a significantly more difficult time doing them, then those that did them when the zone was flooded on release. This could be eased by simply giving way better drop rewards, or doing something to encourage consistent activity in these zones years after they were released. Which is why posts like these have been made to reduce the difficulty of these world events once the chapter is old news, and there isn't enough people in the zones doing these activities to support the higher difficulty of the bosses.

It works great in theory and practice. It does not require people to be consistently killing the boss as it merely requires a player to be part of a guild with players who are actually active in that guild. Then just call out or set up an event with the guild to do WBs and world events. I have seen it work amazingly well doing it both ways. I have also seen this repeated in previous games I played where WBs require groups.

Dynamic scaling makes the world events that have it too easy and there is, and will always be, a cap to the dynamic scaling making it pretty much pointless. It is meaningless to solo a dolmen and it would be sad for the game to see the newer zone world events trivialized in the same manner.

So basically you are saying that it should be a requirement for any player to do anything in the basic OVERWORLD, is to be a part of a guild? That guilds need to be a mandatory requirement to do basic content because zones are dead and don't generate the people needed to do that content on their own? Do you not see the problem with that? You do understand that not everyone wants to be apart of a guild, and that saying you must join guilds due to issues with even getting pugs to form for basic zone content sounds really wrong. Because that is precisely what you're suggesting. I should not have to join a guild JUST to kill dragons in Elsweyr. I should not have to join a guild to complete the Western Skyrim map. The content itself should generate its own population to complete the content, as it was designed to. But it's not. So when something doesn't work as intended it needs to be adjusted to work. HS and dragons do not have the interest generated enough to have stable groups completing them. I had more people joining me for regular dolmens (not talking about Alikr) then I do for HS. So yeah, despite what you're saying, I still say that the overland events should be adjusted so it's difficulty can depend on how many people are actually doing them.

I clearly did not even begin to suggest that it should be a requirement to do ANYTHING in OVERWORLD one must be part of a guild. I obviously spoke only about world bosses and the zone world events. There is considerable content in each zone beyond that.

Further, you do not have to join a guild to just kill dragons but I have seen it is the easiest solution. This is an MMORPG, not a single-player game so it makes sense to have such content that requires some grouping regardless if it is through a guild or not. The base game WBs and dolmens that can be soloed are trivial and pretty much meaningless and it would be sad to see more of the game become a joke like they are.

And that's great except that what you have now is dead content with Harrowstorms and Dragons. Hanging onto "this is an MMORPG and you should have to group for things like this" is pointless if all you are doing is keeping content dead.

This is a play the way you want MMORPG and the fact that a great number of people cannot do Dragons and Harrowstorms because there is not enough interest is kind of silly.

Older zones tend to die down, outside of events, which is why forming a group from a guild or elsewhere works so well and is better than making the content trivial. At that, anyone can do teh Dragons and Harrowstorms. Also, this is not the way "I want" which seems to be what you are getting to, but a common way MMORPGs are.

Zenimax chose WBs and these world events to be more challenging to make up for the lesser challenging overland content as a whole. It is a good balance.

NeeScrolls · April 2022

[snip]

Quoted post has been removed.

The "only" way, huh?

Well, here's my way: I ask people on my friend-list to assist. I ask guildmates to assist. I ask randoms in zone-chat to assist.

If none of that works, immediately, then i simply wait patiently. If i can't wait, then i move onto something else and/or come back later (slowly forming a GROUP with other players who eventually need that same common goal accomplished too) .

Sometimes i also use this forum section: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/LFG

This way has worked (for me & many others like me) since 2013 beta.

Regardless of current population on X map, i never expect to complete intended group content by myself in MMO's. Fun to try solo? Sure. But no expectations.

I literally just ran 'Harrowstorms' with my alt toon recently and found quite a few other players , eventually, who wanted to do these epic event type situations just like i did. So we grouped (some guilded too) .

Therefore, i disagree with the TOPIC of this thread....as well as any claim (by anyone) that "all older zones are so dead all the time" that @ZOS_ needs to spend time re-coding. Because my personal experience & intel within ESO says otherwise.

[Edit for discussing moderation.]

spartaxoxo · April 2022

Dragonredux wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

The main obstacle to soloing them/doing them with small groups are the big adds that the ghosts summon. This is exponentially harder with too few people. The worse you do, the harder and harder it gets.

Compare this to dragons, which are hard to solo, but don't have a mechanic that punishes you as much because it builds in difficulty the worse you do.

One potential fix would be to adjust the rate or amount of ghost spawns based on the amount of players. Or, adjust how many ghosts are required to summon an add based on the amount of players.

I actually think the bleed attack the dragons do are worse than the ghosts. You can get your companion to hold the ghosts, but they die to the chomp of the dragon. The dragon also has those skeleton spawns which have very hard heavy attacks of the chomps and bleeds of the dragon. I personally think the Harrowstorms are easier to solo.

Honestly if the dragons didn't spawn bone colossus on a small group they be much much manageable. Aside from the frost dragon (because he has very janky instant snaps) you can kite around them and dodge their attacks when they about to snap you on a squisher toon.
Companions are worthless for tanking since the game doesn't register their block for whatever reason.

I'm all for scaling it's long overdue. Same for Harrowstorms actively gets harder the longer/worse you do.

For dragons, I would make it so they only spawned their weaker adds when the group is 3 or less. And that the snap goes down enough in damage that a companion in blue heavy bolstered gear could tank it, even if just barely. These are the only 2 changes needed to make that content reasonably soloable.

For the Harrowstroms, have the ghost speed up with lots of players and have them move slow with 1-2 people, medium speed with 3 or more, and high speed with lots of people. Shrikes also only appear if there are 3 or more people. This way the minibosses would a LOT in large groups and would be manageable to not have any spawn at all with small ones (which also would make the achievement of not having minibosses spawn actually doable by new players too). No changes are needed to the big bosses of the Harrowstorms.

spartaxoxo · April 2022

NeeScrolls wrote: »

LalMirchi wrote: »

One word: Yes

One word: No

From a purely coding standpoint, i don't think it would even be possible , since what happens when a couple players start the 'Harrowstorm' event (remember, these types of group content are meant to be EVENTS ) and then randomly a big group of 12 shows up to kill the already scaled-down version in a matter of seconds.

Some "event" , they would say. And gosh the exploit potential.

Not to mention the added server-stress from having to constantly run some version of 'player proximity' code detection 24/7, so that the event-code would know how many (and how powerful) of spawns & rewards to produce.

It just isn't practical for overland zones, imo. (this is what instances are for )

I agree sometimes, in certain maps, it can be frustrating to ask in zone-chat "anyone wanna group for __ X ?" and hear *crickets* ...but...well... this is the nature of MMO's. Gotta wait patiently for fellow gamers to cooperate on common goals.

RL society works this way too. Ideally.

They literally already do it with Geysers. It's not a matter of practicality.

NeeScrolls · April 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They literally already do it with Geysers. It's not a matter of practicality.

Then why haven't they done it with Harrowstorms yet? (or to begin with)

SilverBride · April 2022

NeeScrolls wrote: »

...Regardless of current population on X map, i never expect to complete intended group content by myself in MMO's. Fun to try solo? Sure. But no expectations...

...i disagree with the TOPIC of this thread....as well as any claim (by anyone) that "all older zones are so dead all the time" that @ZOS_ needs to spend time re-coding. Because my personal experience & intel within ESO says otherwise...

I didn't claim that all older zones are dead all the time or that Harrowstorms should be made soloable. What I said in my original post was:

"Harrowstorms are way more difficult than the dolmens of the previous zones and require a lot more players to complete them. This is fine when the zone is current but once a new zone is released they become much less populated making it very difficult to get a decent sized group together. The same holds true for the Geysers in Summerset and the Dragons in Elsweyr.

I suggest that these scale to the number of players fighting them so they can still be completed by players who are clearing those zones."

ZOS_GregoryV · April 2022

Greetings all,

We have decided to close this thread as it no longer seems to be constructive.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-