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Next Gen Consoles: The Perfect Place for PvP?
Stamicka
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As all Veteran PvPers know, the battles in Cyrodiil aren’t as massive as they once were. Additionally, the game is no where near as responsive feeling as it once was. Many people suspect that the decline in performance and max populations is due to ZOS moving many aspects of the game from the client to the server. Having certain processes on the client has many benefits, including:
• Less server strain
• Fast, responsive feeling combat
• More accurate position tracking
• Allows for a dramatic increase in Cyrodiil max populations
• Smoother performance in large scale combat
Unfortunately trusting things to the client leads to a variety of ways to cheat. That’s where next gen consoles come in. No one really knows the operating systems of the Xbox Series X, or the PS5. Additionally, the hardware on these devices cannot be easily modified or upgraded. As a final measure of safety, consoles do not allow online play if you have an old version of software or modified hardware. These things combined make it very difficult to cheat on console games. This means that certain processes can be moved back to the client side on consoles with much less risk of cheating. While next gen consoles are still not as powerful as high end PCs, they have more than enough power to handle this.
Currently, Cyrodiil has outlived it’s original purpose. It’s a massive map with very little action because it supports so few people. Not only would moving certain processes back to the client result in better performance and responsiveness, but it would allow Cyrodiil to hold the amount of people that it used to.
Next Gen consoles have much more computing power than the generation before it, so they should be able to support large fights without massive FPS drops. Unfortunately, I am not sure that the original consoles (Xbox One and PS4) could handle this, but it may be time to stop supporting these devices soon anyway.
Please consider this as a possibility. PvP in it’s current state is way too small and plagued with performance issues. This could bring PvP back to life on consoles (sorry PC).
• Less server strain
• Fast, responsive feeling combat
• More accurate position tracking
• Allows for a dramatic increase in Cyrodiil max populations
• Smoother performance in large scale combat
Unfortunately trusting things to the client leads to a variety of ways to cheat. That’s where next gen consoles come in. No one really knows the operating systems of the Xbox Series X, or the PS5. Additionally, the hardware on these devices cannot be easily modified or upgraded. As a final measure of safety, consoles do not allow online play if you have an old version of software or modified hardware. These things combined make it very difficult to cheat on console games. This means that certain processes can be moved back to the client side on consoles with much less risk of cheating. While next gen consoles are still not as powerful as high end PCs, they have more than enough power to handle this.
Currently, Cyrodiil has outlived it’s original purpose. It’s a massive map with very little action because it supports so few people. Not only would moving certain processes back to the client result in better performance and responsiveness, but it would allow Cyrodiil to hold the amount of people that it used to.
Next Gen consoles have much more computing power than the generation before it, so they should be able to support large fights without massive FPS drops. Unfortunately, I am not sure that the original consoles (Xbox One and PS4) could handle this, but it may be time to stop supporting these devices soon anyway.
Please consider this as a possibility. PvP in it’s current state is way too small and plagued with performance issues. This could bring PvP back to life on consoles (sorry PC).
PC NA and Xbox NA
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Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭if its so hard to cheat on consoles, why do i see more threads about massive bot trains on console than pc? lol
technically speaking i highly doubt stuff like the newest xbox or PS5 are unhackable, sure it is more difficult than PC, but its definitely not impossibleplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (fully filled out with current game), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
in progress: acquiring mundus stones (currently only have the thief)
feel free to stop by and use the facilities3 -
xDeusEJRx✭✭✭✭✭
✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »if its so hard to cheat on consoles, why do i see more threads about massive bot trains on console than pc? lol
technically speaking i highly doubt stuff like the newest xbox or PS5 are unhackable, sure it is more difficult than PC, but its definitely not impossible
This, lol there's rampant botting on console. Which is why console prices are so dirt cheap compared to PC, there's an insane amount of botting on consoleSolo PvP'er PS5 NA player
90% of my body is made of Magblade2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The first issue is the assumpiton that moving checks from the server to the client will solve the problem. Yes, moving items from the client to the server did increase the server load among other things. However, performance has degraded since then which indicates there are other factors involved.,
Since Zenimax, the authority of what is happening on the server-side did recently state that with the addition of systems to the game over the years since ESO launched there is more that contributes to the server load. It is why they notified us of their plan to reorganize pretty much every aspect of the game server side as they have already done with the client. Of course, time will tell how much this impacts p[performance and we are all probably more than a little gun shy about these things.
Also, Since checks cannot be moved client-side for PC it is extremely unlikely Zenimax wants to work with clients with completely different organizations of client and server as it would require a much higher degree of coordination when porting changes with the game to consoles. This is something that would increase the risk of consoles getting a bad update as well as increase the cost for Zenimax to troubleshoot problems. Not a wise complication to add to an already complicated game.0 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »if its so hard to cheat on consoles, why do i see more threads about massive bot trains on console than pc? lol
technically speaking i highly doubt stuff like the newest xbox or PS5 are unhackable, sure it is more difficult than PC, but its definitely not impossible
Botting is from the ability to automate controller inputs. It’s not cheating in the sense that the games memory is being manipulated by other software.
PC NA and Xbox NA3 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
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Whatever OS Xbox uses is not the same as the Windows on your computer. Users also have way less control over it. It is not exploitable currently and the console version of ESO is not available in the PC Xbox app like other games.
PC NA and Xbox NA0 -
Wolfpaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »if its so hard to cheat on consoles, why do i see more threads about massive bot trains on console than pc? lol
technically speaking i highly doubt stuff like the newest xbox or PS5 are unhackable, sure it is more difficult than PC, but its definitely not impossible
This, lol there's rampant botting on console. Which is why console prices are so dirt cheap compared to PC, there's an insane amount of botting on console
Ya it's great, more farmers the better.0 -
EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorry, but if you want to be serious about PvP you will have to go with a PC. No console will ever have the performance capabilities of even an inexpensive PC. Additionally, every serious PvP game ever created has been designed for PC first.
This is not the case. An Xbox absolutely can not run any game that a windows PC can run.0 -
Gaeliannas✭✭✭✭✭Since Zenimax, the authority of what is happening on the server-side did recently state that with the addition of systems to the game over the years since ESO launched there is more that contributes to the server load. It is why they notified us of their plan to reorganize pretty much every aspect of the game server side as they have already done with the client. Of course, time will tell how much this impacts p[performance and we are all probably more than a little gun shy about these things.
Yes, adding addition systems, zones, etc to the game, without adding the additional hardware to support it, will definitely take it's toll. I am under the impression they managed adding all these things over the years at a cost to Cyrodiil, your basic rob Peter to pay Paul scenario. It would very much explain not only the continued lowering of the pop cap, but the severe decrease in performance anyways over the years. The issue with doing that though, is at some point you run out of equipment to reallocate to other areas of the game and either need to buy new equipment (should have been done years ago), or you try your hardest to rewrite your code, remove high usage routines and systems.
That's just my impression though, no basis in fact whatsoever.0 -
Kaelthorn_Nightbloom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No one really knows the operating systems of the Xbox Series X, or the PS5.
Many people understand console operating systems, especially Xbox which runs Windows.Not only would moving certain processes back to the client result in better performance and responsiveness, but it would allow Cyrodiil to hold the amount of people that it used to.
This is conjecture.certain processes can be moved back to the client side on consoles with much less risk of cheating.
Never trust the client no matter what it is.
Edited by Kaelthorn_Nightbloom on April 7, 2022 1:56AMPC NA2 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »if its so hard to cheat on consoles, why do i see more threads about massive bot trains on console than pc? lol
technically speaking i highly doubt stuff like the newest xbox or PS5 are unhackable, sure it is more difficult than PC, but its definitely not impossible
This, lol there's rampant botting on console. Which is why console prices are so dirt cheap compared to PC, there's an insane amount of botting on console
I mean, it's a part of it, but a much bigger part is that we don't have addons earning gold for us with daily writs, thus pumping up inflation. Every writ you do on console you still have to do it manually. On PC the most time consuming part of doing writs is swapping characters and accounts.2 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SkaraMinoc wrote: »No one really knows the operating systems of the Xbox Series X, or the PS5.
Many people understand console operating systems, especially Xbox which runs Windows.Not only would moving certain processes back to the client result in better performance and responsiveness, but it would allow Cyrodiil to hold the amount of people that it used to.
This is conjecture.certain processes can be moved back to the client side on consoles with much less risk of cheating.
Never trust the client no matter what it is.
Once again, Xbox OS is based off of Windows, but they are not the same thing. You cannot cheat as easily as you can cheat on windows.
Many current Xbox games already trust the client for certain tasks. It is not uncommon for First Person Shooters to have a few client side tasks in order to ensure the User has a responsive game. I’m not saying ALL tasks should be trusted to the client, but certainly some can on console.Edited by Stamicka on April 7, 2022 2:37AMPC NA and Xbox NA0 -
Gaeliannas✭✭✭✭✭SkaraMinoc wrote: »No one really knows the operating systems of the Xbox Series X, or the PS5.
Many people understand console operating systems, especially Xbox which runs Windows.Not only would moving certain processes back to the client result in better performance and responsiveness, but it would allow Cyrodiil to hold the amount of people that it used to.
This is conjecture.certain processes can be moved back to the client side on consoles with much less risk of cheating.
Never trust the client no matter what it is.
Once again, Xbox OS is based off of Windows, but they are not the same thing. You cannot cheat as easily as you can cheat on windows.
Many current Xbox games already trust the client for certain tasks. It is not uncommon for First Person Shooters to have a few client side tasks in order to ensure the User has a responsive game. I’m not saying ALL tasks should be trusted to the client, but certainly some can on console.
Honestly, I am not sure I get this thread. First off, I don't currently own a console and probably never will again, as using a controller is completely alien to me, a KB & Mouse is where I live. Secondly, it takes just a tiny bit of technical know how to cheat/hack a console, but you risk losing your console for doing it, which is what deters most folks. Sure, they won't come to your house and take it, but it will just be a brick for the most part, since you won't be able to play most content. Getting caught cheating and banned from one game, is a whole different story than being banned from MS or Sony for hacking your console.
Then to the elephant in the room, performance. It really doesn't matter what you play on or how fair it is, if you basically can't play even halfway smoothly in the first place. And moving stuff back client side at this point, would have close to zero impact on performance as bad as things have become in Cyro.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gaeliannas wrote: »Since Zenimax, the authority of what is happening on the server-side did recently state that with the addition of systems to the game over the years since ESO launched there is more that contributes to the server load. It is why they notified us of their plan to reorganize pretty much every aspect of the game server side as they have already done with the client. Of course, time will tell how much this impacts p[performance and we are all probably more than a little gun shy about these things.
Yes, adding addition systems, zones, etc to the game, without adding the additional hardware to support it, will definitely take it's toll. I am under the impression they managed adding all these things over the years at a cost to Cyrodiil, your basic rob Peter to pay Paul scenario. It would very much explain not only the continued lowering of the pop cap, but the severe decrease in performance anyways over the years. The issue with doing that though, is at some point you run out of equipment to reallocate to other areas of the game and either need to buy new equipment (should have been done years ago), or you try your hardest to rewrite your code, remove high usage routines and systems.
That's just my impression though, no basis in fact whatsoever.
As I noted, we have more than enough reason to be gun shy about Zenimax saying they are going to do something. So yes, it is expected and I am pessimistic until I see otherwise. However, in what you edited out I stated clearly why the idea suggested for consoles will not happen. It would create a worse situation overall and is ignoring a big part of the problem.
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katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A couple of assumptions here that I disagree with:
Cyrodiil doesn’t run much better on PS5 than it did on PS4 Pro for me.
Also, Cyrodiil has not outlived its usefulness. Lots of us still login every day to PvP there.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Necromancer
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA3 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »A couple of assumptions here that I disagree with:
Cyrodiil doesn’t run much better on PS5 than it did on PS4 Pro for me.
Also, Cyrodiil has not outlived its usefulness. Lots of us still login every day to PvP there.
I am not disagreeing here. However, I think OP is suggesting Zenimax create a different client and server-side game to transfer more of the load back to the client in order to make Cyrodiil perform better. They are correct it would do something but since the performance has continued to decline significantly since much was moved away from the client it does not take into account what appears to be the lion share of the problem these days.0 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Gaeliannas wrote: »SkaraMinoc wrote: »No one really knows the operating systems of the Xbox Series X, or the PS5.
Many people understand console operating systems, especially Xbox which runs Windows.Not only would moving certain processes back to the client result in better performance and responsiveness, but it would allow Cyrodiil to hold the amount of people that it used to.
This is conjecture.certain processes can be moved back to the client side on consoles with much less risk of cheating.
Never trust the client no matter what it is.
Once again, Xbox OS is based off of Windows, but they are not the same thing. You cannot cheat as easily as you can cheat on windows.
Many current Xbox games already trust the client for certain tasks. It is not uncommon for First Person Shooters to have a few client side tasks in order to ensure the User has a responsive game. I’m not saying ALL tasks should be trusted to the client, but certainly some can on console.
Honestly, I am not sure I get this thread. First off, I don't currently own a console and probably never will again, as using a controller is completely alien to me, a KB & Mouse is where I live. Secondly, it takes just a tiny bit of technical know how to cheat/hack a console, but you risk losing your console for doing it, which is what deters most folks. Sure, they won't come to your house and take it, but it will just be a brick for the most part, since you won't be able to play most content. Getting caught cheating and banned from one game, is a whole different story than being banned from MS or Sony for hacking your console.
Then to the elephant in the room, performance. It really doesn't matter what you play on or how fair it is, if you basically can't play even halfway smoothly in the first place. And moving stuff back client side at this point, would have close to zero impact on performance as bad as things have become in Cyro.
Cyro is so bad partly because the servers are overworked. Next gen consoles push 60 frames in Cyrodiil consistently. It’s not high end PC frames, but it’s pretty smooth. The hardware performance is smooth, the server performance is the issue. Moving some things back to the client on console would improve server performance and user experience. Things were moved from the client in the past to prevent cheating, console security makes cheating extremely rare so they can afford having some stuff on the client side.katanagirl1 wrote: »A couple of assumptions here that I disagree with:
Cyrodiil doesn’t run much better on PS5 than it did on PS4 Pro for me.
Also, Cyrodiil has not outlived its usefulness. Lots of us still login every day to PvP there.
I’ve never played on PS5. I doubt it doesn’t run better unless you don’t use performance mode. Turning on performance mode on Xbox Series X gives me a consistent 60FPS and the game runs and loads very well in Cyrodiil. The lag experienced in Cyrodiil is from the servers though. Our hardware has no impact on that. My suggestion would definitely improve server performance and responsiveness.
I never said Cyrodiil wasn’t useful, I said it outlived it’s intended purpose. The intended purpose was to support over 1000 players. The map size reflects this. It doesn’t support anywhere near that amount now and it’s usually pretty empty.
Edited by Stamicka on April 7, 2022 8:21AMPC NA and Xbox NA0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Depends on what campaign you are in as to whether it’s empty. I define empty as less than one bar per my faction.
Gray Host is really the only viable campaign for me, Blackreach is typically only one bar at best.
Your statement still implies that Cyro is no longer viable. I disagree. Those that are left still try to make something of it so we can still fight.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Necromancer
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA0
