one only meta? is this the result of hybridization?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2022

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Did some tests on my mag DK last night. Again, I am not a ground breaking DPS. I have a pace of .93-.95 and usually miss 2-3 LAs (not counting stampede which I apparently cant weave). On DK, I play what would probably be called a semi static rotation. It aint that hard on the scheme of things. Only cheese on these parses is that I will cast Channeled acceleration pre fight. I didn't mess with ulti pots or disabling passives, etc.

-Double Staff with Kinra and Bahsei, Roughly 110k. I am not great at the mag dump mini game, I do dump magic at the start, but then I really dont pay attention to it. I think if you disable battle roar, this number would be higher. Problem is no matter how much you dump at the beginning, your ultimate fills you up when you cast it the first time.

-DW/Staff Kinra/Bahsei. Roughly 112k. So yeah, daggers give a bit more damage. They should because you sacrifice range.

-DW/Staff Kinra/Relequen. Roughly 115k. Bit more single target, again, makes sense, as Bahsei is going to be better for AOE. You also tend to over pen on a dummy in 5 light which I run with Bahsei (don't have perfected Rings). Sustain is also tougher, so again, reasonable tradeoffs.

-DW/2H Kinra/Relequen. Roughly 17.5k. Slightly more than a back bar staff, but now you are totally committed to melee. Stam management can get a little rough if stacked into magic, but its doable.

-Swapped in AY for Kinra. My numbers dropped on average by about 300 DPS, which I am not sure can be statistically significant. I only did a few parses on each.

So now, we have 3 specs and 3 distinct gear combos that are all within a few K of each other. All could be considered effectively meta. All play a little different, all are perfectly viable, even for things like trifectas. All are better in some situations than others. I think this is really healthy overall.

If you want to see the extremely robust version of this test, skinny cheeks posted one. I usually seem to be about 3-5k behind him on a dummy (I was 120k on static stamcro where he was 125k), but he is just better than me. LOL.

I hit 105K in Zen’s Bahsei running DW front, VMA staff back. Full static using 14 second wall, no poison morph to claw, no points taken out of passive, trap on the backbar, inner light on front, 6 light, 1 med. Literally the same think I parsed 103K with last patch. Chuckled to myself how easy DPS this patch without going full meta and vowed to not run maelstrom 2H on backbar on any mag toons because stampede is wonky enough on stam.

Stampede is indeed wonky. You cant swap cancel off it, and you cant seem to weave it effectively when you swap and cast it first. It seems there are some work arounds. I have heard moving backwards while weaving seems to make it work, I think the better way is to actually light attack from your front bar. So its LA>Swap>Stampede. I am also not a fan of a gap closer in a rotation because it can make you move in funny ways, that you might not be expecting. I have had it lock onto an add and pull me way out of position. I dont see myself using it in any type of difficult content unless its a scenario where I am switching gear for every fight and its a pure stack and burn.

ForeverJenn · April 2022

I agree. They did this hybridization under the guise of more options for playstyle. Well, maybe for the toxic casuals, but unless you're a Necro, DK or maybe a Warden DPS, endgame groups don't want you.

sarahthes · April 2022

Can't find the post I wanted to quote but oh well.

I do want to say I think that parse requirements for open/pug runs are silly, and that guilds that insist on them have a mentality that should be discouraged - that dummy humping somehow conveys directly to ability of the player in content.

Of course there's a correlation, those who parse high in content and do well will likely parse well on the dummy, and the dummy is an excellent tool for learning your class, testing different loadouts, all those things.

I just think gatekeeping content based on a dummy parse is silly, and if you're going to gatekeep at all it should be along the lines of, "you've never done vet Cloudrest at all so I'm not going to roster you for vCR HM tonight - but there's a vCR+1 trainer tomorrow at 7 that you should sign up for."

zaria · April 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

(if you are the guy that "eeehhh don't follow the meta, play as you like, wear what you want!1!!11!" this post is NOT for you)

Content creators are releasing new parses with crazy numbers but seems like there is one only meta for every class, "mag" and "stam", dk or necro, sorc or templar... Everybody wear kinra/relequen/kilt/mael greatsword using almost the same skills. With the new tank sets even group composition is not so relevant.

I find it boring, where is class identity? where is build diversity? Where are the classic fantasy roles? is really this what people want?

Couldnt disagree more. Look, if your goal is to squeeze out every last drop of DPS, math is pretty much always going to point to one combination of sets, so yes, if parse fishing, it looks pretty similar. But the reality is that we have more variation now than we ever had in what can be considered a competitive gear combo or bar setup.

I am still getting used to the new hybrid meta, but it really does give you a lot of options. AY, Rele, Pillar, even Siroria, are all viable front bar option. Plenty of stuff you can wear on the body, and you arent bound to one based on whether you chose mag or stam. Rele might be king for single target in medium armor, but Bahsei is going to be the better option for a lot of people with more pen and more cleave.

Sure a Maelstrom Greatsword might help you squeeze an extra 1-2k on a mag DPS over a Staff, but you dont have to run one. On my mDK, I am like 110 with double staff and 112 with staff/2H (wearing Kinra and Bahsei). My Stamcro if you can call him that (really a hybrid, stacking stam and spell damage) is hitting 120 with AY front bar adn rele body, swapped to Kinra front, couldnt tell hardly any difference. The difference in most gear choices is essentially meaningless in actual content, and many times, the staff is actually ahead of 2H, or at least smoother to play. The rotation between DK and Necro is night and day different. Furthermore, does your class have room for an extra DOT? Caltrops, Degen, Rune, Carve, all are in the same ball park and you can tailor it to what you need for both the specific fight at hand, and your regen needs.

The reality is that there is a lot of flexibility, probably more than ever, to be within 1-2% of what we would call meta. My only real complaint about the current meta is that as far as I can tell, mageblade needs a healthy buff.

Excellent points, yes staff has benefit, its ranged for one but it might be an idea for my magplar who is melee anyway.
Not really updated my build so much just some quick fixes.

Call_of_Red_Mountain · April 2022

Someone said meta? Blame Alcast.

OK. Just joking. ESO unbalanced and people crazy about addons and super high dps. Because why bother about mechanics if you can skip everything? Meta players logic.
I remember how ppl finished vmol with 30k dps. Now they need 70k minimum for dlc trials. And 90k minimum for hms. Meeeettttaaaa.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2022

Call_of_Red_Mountain wrote: »

Someone said meta? Blame Alcast.

OK. Just joking. ESO unbalanced and people crazy about addons and super high dps. Because why bother about mechanics if you can skip everything? Meta players logic.
I remember how ppl finished vmol with 30k dps. Now they need 70k minimum for dlc trials. And 90k minimum for hms. Meeeettttaaaa.

Two things, first, Alcast really doesnt offer meta builds. He offers dumbed down versions for the masses. Don't get me wrong, he is an amazing resource, but he is not where meta players go for builds.

Second, I was one of those people. Our first VMOLHM clear was I think the 4th on PC/NA. We had group DPS of 273K, so a little over 30k a person per DPS. At the time, we did not have trial dummies. A really good damage parse back then on a non trial dummy was in the high 30s, maybe low 40s. But here is the thing, we did not brute force that clear, we respected every mechanic, and went to pad 6-7 post lunar phase. The fight took over 10 minutes.

Point is this, yes, back then you could clear VMOL with 30k DPS. It took groups months and months to do it. At the one year mark, there were less than 10 guilds actively clearing VMOL HM. So while it could be done, understand that it was some of the best players on the server pulling 30k AND doing every single mechanic. Those exact same parses today would be north of 100k on a trial dummy. If you are only pulling even 70k on a trial dummy today, I don't believe for a second that 8 people in that camp are going to have even close to a smooth time clearing VMOL. A group of 8 players that can only pull 30k with todays damage are never clearing VMOL HM. Its not that it cant be done with that level of damage, its that pulling 90-100k is so easy to do now that if you arent in that neighborhood, you dont have the skill to respect every mechanic for a 30k per DPS clear.

TLDR: If you don't have the skill to break 30k DPS in todays environment, you don't have the skill to respect the necessary mechanics required for the fight at that level of DPS. That is why Parse requirements are so much higher these days. People dont want to do a 9 month VMOL HM Prog.

Call_of_Red_Mountain · April 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Call_of_Red_Mountain wrote: »

Someone said meta? Blame Alcast.

OK. Just joking. ESO unbalanced and people crazy about addons and super high dps. Because why bother about mechanics if you can skip everything? Meta players logic.
I remember how ppl finished vmol with 30k dps. Now they need 70k minimum for dlc trials. And 90k minimum for hms. Meeeettttaaaa.

Two things, first, Alcast really doesnt offer meta builds. He offers dumbed down versions for the masses. Don't get me wrong, he is an amazing resource, but he is not where meta players go for builds.

Second, I was one of those people. Our first VMOLHM clear was I think the 4th on PC/NA. We had group DPS of 273K, so a little over 30k a person per DPS. At the time, we did not have trial dummies. A really good damage parse back then on a non trial dummy was in the high 30s, maybe low 40s. But here is the thing, we did not brute force that clear, we respected every mechanic, and went to pad 6-7 post lunar phase. The fight took over 10 minutes.

Point is this, yes, back then you could clear VMOL with 30k DPS. It took groups months and months to do it. At the one year mark, there were less than 10 guilds actively clearing VMOL HM. So while it could be done, understand that it was some of the best players on the server pulling 30k AND doing every single mechanic. Those exact same parses today would be north of 100k on a trial dummy. If you are only pulling even 70k on a trial dummy today, I don't believe for a second that 8 people in that camp are going to have even close to a smooth time clearing VMOL. A group of 8 players that can only pull 30k with todays damage are never clearing VMOL HM. Its not that it cant be done with that level of damage, its that pulling 90-100k is so easy to do now that if you arent in that neighborhood, you dont have the skill to respect every mechanic for a 30k per DPS clear.

TLDR: If you don't have the skill to break 30k DPS in todays environment, you don't have the skill to respect the necessary mechanics required for the fight at that level of DPS. That is why Parse requirements are so much higher these days. People dont want to do a 9 month VMOL HM Prog.

It was a joke about Alcast. And I was there too. Finished all vet content.
Just saying how toxic meta trials guilds sometimes. I'm tired from all this. Just chilling now.

karekiz · April 2022

Honestly to me it is more of an issue of class balance not "My stam toon can use orbs so we stack X8 DK's"

Classes need things like group buffs such as Nightblade DPS boosting % Execute damage - Sorcs boosting % AoE dmg - Templar boosting ST dmg - Wardens boosting ST Dot dmg - Revamp turning tide into "Whenever you bash an enemy who is effected by Major Vulnerability increase its duration by "X" to bring back Major Vuln as a key feature to Necro's, but lowering the requirement per raid.

Having very generic support no matter what kind of PvE build you use <AoE's are for instance usually in every build with Wall/Stampede/Cloak etc> even if its just one ability would be a nice update. These are just examples of course.

That would easily fix a lot of issues, and could be built into the class theme.

p00tx · April 2022

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Meta sets are one thing, the ESO community gate keeping content is another.

Now that 120K is the new top tier for DPS I am seeing teams raising their requirements over 110K now. I’m not talking about teams running trifecta’s or anything like that either I mean hard mode clears like VOR, BOL, and SOTN. What’s it’s doing is closing ranks around the same people in the trial community and gate keeping players that are finally able to break 85-90K out of having the chance to get clears. Wasn’t the point of raising the floor to get people access to more content?

More content, yes. More groups? No. Groups can decide the parameters for entry any way they like, and since it's only natural to want to choose the path of least resistance, they're typically going to ask for the highest dps available. What this does do though is it opens up the opportunity for players who might want to assemble a group with just enough dps requirement to clear the content and then progress that content together. If you're comfortable leading, you could even be that raid lead. It's not as awful and scary as it sounds, and people putting together groups like these is what will bridge that huge skill gap. We need more mid range groups with mid range requirements to fill that space.

Edit: I just saw your next post and it looks like you're putting out competitive numbers, so I'm not sure what you were on about in your previous post. Zen is a support set, and people aren't expected to hit top parses in support sets.

I’m on about bringing those mid tier people along for the ride. Something some core teams I am on that are starved for DPS subs just don’t seem to be flexible enough to do. It’s do lead mid tier groups through vSS and have been for a while now. People think I’m crazy to bring 60-65K players in there but it’s not that hard if they can stay alive and know how to stack and focus the correct adds.

I’m literally laughing at some groups requiring 100K for vCR3. It’s not the DPS that gets the group killed it’s people who drop ice in group when there is fire or forget to barswap in exe. I see BOL players doing this all the time, maybe they are trolling IDK.

VAS2 is full of 100K floor lords but I’ve seen groups with 80K players clear it with no trouble and yet people still setting the bar at 90-95+

Point is mid tier dps don’t get enough opportunities to be successful at this type of content because they will get wrecked by the same mechs that kill the upper tier dps. That and you have people advertising themselves as prog groups when they want big numbers and mandatory clears to join their prog team. Isn’t the point of prog teams to prog? Seems like some people want easy clears. Don’t advertise as a prog team if you expect instant results.

But why? These people can find a group on par with their own skills, rather than being "taken along for the ride" with more skilled groups. The point of progression is to progress the content, not skills you should already have before coming into the content. That's the individual's job to work on in their own time, not on the group's time.

Integral1900 · April 2022

There is no build that will work perfectly in all situations

Don’t believe me? Try taking a flashy trial dps into pvp and see how many seconds you last before some wierd combo build runs you over.

There was a fixed meta for dungeons and trials before, now there is a diffrent one. Simple as that