Can anyone explain to me how Account Wide Acheivements is a beneficial feature?

FlopsyPrince · April 2022

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

It’s great for players who like to play multiple characters especially in competitive content. I no longer need to stress what class I should bring to trial or dungeon groups and miss out on titles or other rewards for other characters. It’s also nice to do dailies and hero of x zone achievements while playing on any class of my choosing. And map is clearly indicates now what i have already done and what I’m still missing.

What tp to specific location have to do with AWA? You can still do it same as before by clicking on wayshrine and paying small sum of gold.

For people like me, who specifically made characters to enjoy more difficult content in end game on different classes, multiple times, it's a nightmare because I no longer can tell which characters have done the achievements in each dungeon and trial. It is the absolute worst part of this feature.
.

I don't get this and hope you can further elaborate on your position so I can understand your thinking. How is not having a specific toon pop an achievement "nightmarish" when the specific toon that you created to run difficult content is still able to run that content? Do you stop using that toon on the content as soon as the achievement pops up for it?

Personally I make toons of different classes to run content so I have variety of different experiences to extend my enjoyment of the game. For me healing as a templar and warden are different animals giving me different experiences when I run that content so having an achievement pop as a reward like a skinner box doesn't factor into my enjoyment. That's the reason that I love AWA; I can more fully experience the game without worrying about ensuring that I do every single grindy minute thing on every toon. So basically I can have fun instead of go to work when I play ESO.

I have 18 characters. All different (though a number do seem to be Khajiit). I play each of of them through the game, through the different zones & stories etc. Almost like they are separate accounts - and it is the way the game has been set up & encouraged for the last 8 years.

But I do have a main which I do things on first. He’s completed virtually everything except some vet trials & vet dungeon achievements.

On console, achievements have been the main way to see progress. So not done for the thrill of achievements, tho that can be nice, but more to be able to see what character has done what. Now I can’t tell which character has done which dungeon, or if they have done it on vet, or what bits of skyshard they need to get or what delves they haven’t yet done.

So its not about *chasing* achievements but seeing what have/haven’t done in the game.

It would be hard for us players to prove, but I will still bet more of us are in the first camp and fewer in your camp. I do lots of grinds, but not for achievements. I have leveled about 40 characters now (most at max) between the PS4 and PC. I clearly don't mind repetition, but I have no desire to fish on all those characters, as one example.

I would agree that it was kind of nice targeting dungeon completion (with the skyshard), so some things weren't fixed the way I would prefer, but grinding long chains on each alt is different and I appreciate the idea, if not the implementation.

dzugarueb17_ESO · April 2022

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

It would be hard for us players to prove, but I will still bet more of us are in the first camp and fewer in your camp.

It would be hard for us players to prove, but I will still bet us, PvE players significantly outnumber PvP players. How much resources are spent on PvP and how much do those pesky PvPers complain about performance all the time? Idk, I have fine performance in my Murkmire, can we just delete PvP altogether to get more development time allocated to quests?

tmbrinks · April 2022

But...

Account-wide doesn't save you any time on creating and/or playing a new character...

You still have to collect all the skyshards for skill points, you still have to do the quests for the skill points. You still have to separately grind up MG/FG/PO/Undaunted skill lines.

Even before when you did the monster trophies on a character it unlocked the dye for your entire account. When you learned a motif on one character it unlocked the style page on your entire account. When you earned a momento from an achievement, it was unlocked for your entire account.

Yes, I get that ZoS could have eased a pain point, and allowed "meta" achievements across characters to unlock the relevant dyes/titles/etc... Fine. There's like a dozen of those.

So much of the game was already account-wide. But for those of us that played "characters", we lost all of that... Did people really play with a fear of being on an alt character that happened to get the "flawless tail feather" for the monster trophies? Because that's an argument I hear from the "pro-AWA" crowd. I don't buy it.

Necrotech_Master · April 2022

tmbrinks wrote: »

But...

Account-wide doesn't save you any time on creating and/or playing a new character...

You still have to collect all the skyshards for skill points, you still have to do the quests for the skill points. You still have to separately grind up MG/FG/PO/Undaunted skill lines.

Even before when you did the monster trophies on a character it unlocked the dye for your entire account. When you learned a motif on one character it unlocked the style page on your entire account. When you earned a momento from an achievement, it was unlocked for your entire account.

Yes, I get that ZoS could have eased a pain point, and allowed "meta" achievements across characters to unlock the relevant dyes/titles/etc... Fine. There's like a dozen of those.

So much of the game was already account-wide. But for those of us that played "characters", we lost all of that... Did people really play with a fear of being on an alt character that happened to get the "flawless tail feather" for the monster trophies? Because that's an argument I hear from the "pro-AWA" crowd. I don't buy it.

for me personally, yes i absolutely hated getting the monster trophy drops i needed on my main when on an alt because they were so uncommon (if i knew AWA was coming i probably wouldnt have spent about 3 weeks worth of total time last year just grinding out the remainder of those trophies)

i also looked at some of those slayer achievements for dungeons, i mean 50 freaking flame colossus in city of ash 2 vet, and there are maybe 3 in the whole dungeon (at least 1-2 can easily be skipped), ive literally never had the motivation to try to work on some of those achievements because playing alts would have essentially not made any progress to getting that (with the AWA though im up to like 19-20 total flame colossus kills because thats what i have achieved as a player across my toons)

i still think they could have done a better job with the AWA that would have made both camps happy, i personally treat all my characters as individuals, but i see achievements as the effort i have put in, and per character achievements have always made me feel like i was locked into playing my main on content to get the achievements because the progress was not shared

another note is that now that the titles are shared too, i can finally put thematic titles on toons as ive unlocked them (an example is im debating if my WW toon should have "hircines champion" or "alpha predator", and he didnt earn either of them personally, but thematically/RP wise it makes more sense lol)

tmbrinks · April 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

But...

Account-wide doesn't save you any time on creating and/or playing a new character...

You still have to collect all the skyshards for skill points, you still have to do the quests for the skill points. You still have to separately grind up MG/FG/PO/Undaunted skill lines.

Even before when you did the monster trophies on a character it unlocked the dye for your entire account. When you learned a motif on one character it unlocked the style page on your entire account. When you earned a momento from an achievement, it was unlocked for your entire account.

Yes, I get that ZoS could have eased a pain point, and allowed "meta" achievements across characters to unlock the relevant dyes/titles/etc... Fine. There's like a dozen of those.

So much of the game was already account-wide. But for those of us that played "characters", we lost all of that... Did people really play with a fear of being on an alt character that happened to get the "flawless tail feather" for the monster trophies? Because that's an argument I hear from the "pro-AWA" crowd. I don't buy it.

for me personally, yes i absolutely hated getting the monster trophy drops i needed on my main when on an alt because they were so uncommon (if i knew AWA was coming i probably wouldnt have spent about 3 weeks worth of total time last year just grinding out the remainder of those trophies)

i also looked at some of those slayer achievements for dungeons, i mean 50 freaking flame colossus in city of ash 2 vet, and there are maybe 3 in the whole dungeon (at least 1-2 can easily be skipped), ive literally never had the motivation to try to work on some of those achievements because playing alts would have essentially not made any progress to getting that (with the AWA though im up to like 19-20 total flame colossus kills because thats what i have achieved as a player across my toons)

i still think they could have done a better job with the AWA that would have made both camps happy, i personally treat all my characters as individuals, but i see achievements as the effort i have put in, and per character achievements have always made me feel like i was locked into playing my main on content to get the achievements because the progress was not shared

another note is that now that the titles are shared too, i can finally put thematic titles on toons as ive unlocked them (an example is im debating if my WW toon should have "hircines champion" or "alpha predator", and he didnt earn either of them personally, but thematically/RP wise it makes more sense lol)

There's 6. It took me on like 3 runs to ask the group "Hey, can we kill all of the flame colossuses in here?" to finish it. Sounds like a great reason to take away from so many others, when other implementations wouldn't have.

I also got the tail feather on 3 separate alts (running pledges in Blackheart Haven usually) before on my main. And as I said, for those few "meta" achievements, whatever, they used to be tradable on your account so they were account wide... they could have done that again... but instead we got this.

Necrotech_Master · April 2022

tmbrinks wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

But...

Account-wide doesn't save you any time on creating and/or playing a new character...

You still have to collect all the skyshards for skill points, you still have to do the quests for the skill points. You still have to separately grind up MG/FG/PO/Undaunted skill lines.

Even before when you did the monster trophies on a character it unlocked the dye for your entire account. When you learned a motif on one character it unlocked the style page on your entire account. When you earned a momento from an achievement, it was unlocked for your entire account.

Yes, I get that ZoS could have eased a pain point, and allowed "meta" achievements across characters to unlock the relevant dyes/titles/etc... Fine. There's like a dozen of those.

So much of the game was already account-wide. But for those of us that played "characters", we lost all of that... Did people really play with a fear of being on an alt character that happened to get the "flawless tail feather" for the monster trophies? Because that's an argument I hear from the "pro-AWA" crowd. I don't buy it.

for me personally, yes i absolutely hated getting the monster trophy drops i needed on my main when on an alt because they were so uncommon (if i knew AWA was coming i probably wouldnt have spent about 3 weeks worth of total time last year just grinding out the remainder of those trophies)

i also looked at some of those slayer achievements for dungeons, i mean 50 freaking flame colossus in city of ash 2 vet, and there are maybe 3 in the whole dungeon (at least 1-2 can easily be skipped), ive literally never had the motivation to try to work on some of those achievements because playing alts would have essentially not made any progress to getting that (with the AWA though im up to like 19-20 total flame colossus kills because thats what i have achieved as a player across my toons)

i still think they could have done a better job with the AWA that would have made both camps happy, i personally treat all my characters as individuals, but i see achievements as the effort i have put in, and per character achievements have always made me feel like i was locked into playing my main on content to get the achievements because the progress was not shared

another note is that now that the titles are shared too, i can finally put thematic titles on toons as ive unlocked them (an example is im debating if my WW toon should have "hircines champion" or "alpha predator", and he didnt earn either of them personally, but thematically/RP wise it makes more sense lol)

There's 6. It took me on like 3 runs to ask the group "Hey, can we kill all of the flame colossuses in here?" to finish it. Sounds like a great reason to take away from so many others, when other implementations wouldn't have.

I also got the tail feather on 3 separate alts (running pledges in Blackheart Haven usually) before on my main. And as I said, for those few "meta" achievements, whatever, they used to be tradable on your account so they were account wide... they could have done that again... but instead we got this.

if there are 6, and you kill 6 every run that is still effectively 9 runs minimum on 1 toon, IF you killed all of them every one on every run

i would rather have the option to run multiple toons through the dungeon and still work on the same "progress bar"

again, i never said that this implementation was ideal (and ive said before i would have been fine if they just added an account achievement section to the collection menu without touching characters), and i know there are others who treat the achievements differently than i do, but i personally am not unhappy with having them being account wide and see it as allowing me a lot more flexibility to use different toons in the content than just grinding away dozens of dungeon runs on 1 toon

xaraan · April 2022

Jaraal wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

For example: Nothing is stopping me from earning gryphon heart on every character if I want to do it personally just because I can display the title on any of them already.

But you won't earn it on every character, because with AWA, it's one and done. It is literally impossible to earn the achievement a second time.

[snip]

Because yes, me personally doing a trifecta on a trial on every tank I have is an achievement whether it checks off a little box or not. And offers additional benefits like knowing how different classes doing the same role in the same content with the same team compare balance wise. So it's actually more meaningful to me to actually do it than to have a box say whether or not I did it.

[Edited for Baiting]

tmbrinks · April 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

But...

Account-wide doesn't save you any time on creating and/or playing a new character...

You still have to collect all the skyshards for skill points, you still have to do the quests for the skill points. You still have to separately grind up MG/FG/PO/Undaunted skill lines.

Even before when you did the monster trophies on a character it unlocked the dye for your entire account. When you learned a motif on one character it unlocked the style page on your entire account. When you earned a momento from an achievement, it was unlocked for your entire account.

Yes, I get that ZoS could have eased a pain point, and allowed "meta" achievements across characters to unlock the relevant dyes/titles/etc... Fine. There's like a dozen of those.

So much of the game was already account-wide. But for those of us that played "characters", we lost all of that... Did people really play with a fear of being on an alt character that happened to get the "flawless tail feather" for the monster trophies? Because that's an argument I hear from the "pro-AWA" crowd. I don't buy it.

for me personally, yes i absolutely hated getting the monster trophy drops i needed on my main when on an alt because they were so uncommon (if i knew AWA was coming i probably wouldnt have spent about 3 weeks worth of total time last year just grinding out the remainder of those trophies)

i also looked at some of those slayer achievements for dungeons, i mean 50 freaking flame colossus in city of ash 2 vet, and there are maybe 3 in the whole dungeon (at least 1-2 can easily be skipped), ive literally never had the motivation to try to work on some of those achievements because playing alts would have essentially not made any progress to getting that (with the AWA though im up to like 19-20 total flame colossus kills because thats what i have achieved as a player across my toons)

i still think they could have done a better job with the AWA that would have made both camps happy, i personally treat all my characters as individuals, but i see achievements as the effort i have put in, and per character achievements have always made me feel like i was locked into playing my main on content to get the achievements because the progress was not shared

another note is that now that the titles are shared too, i can finally put thematic titles on toons as ive unlocked them (an example is im debating if my WW toon should have "hircines champion" or "alpha predator", and he didnt earn either of them personally, but thematically/RP wise it makes more sense lol)

There's 6. It took me on like 3 runs to ask the group "Hey, can we kill all of the flame colossuses in here?" to finish it. Sounds like a great reason to take away from so many others, when other implementations wouldn't have.

I also got the tail feather on 3 separate alts (running pledges in Blackheart Haven usually) before on my main. And as I said, for those few "meta" achievements, whatever, they used to be tradable on your account so they were account wide... they could have done that again... but instead we got this.

if there are 6, and you kill 6 every run that is still effectively 9 runs minimum on 1 toon, IF you killed all of them every one on every run

i would rather have the option to run multiple toons through the dungeon and still work on the same "progress bar"

again, i never said that this implementation was ideal (and ive said before i would have been fine if they just added an account achievement section to the collection menu without touching characters), and i know there are others who treat the achievements differently than i do, but i personally am not unhappy with having them being account wide and see it as allowing me a lot more flexibility to use different toons in the content than just grinding away dozens of dungeon runs on 1 toon

I guess I'm just disappointed that people are okay with taking away from how so many play... because it's 9 runs on one character. 9.

People getting a small, tiny QoL update letting them run a dungeon on 9 different characters instead of 9 times on one... at the expense of tons of players losing, in many cases, one of the biggest draws to this game over others in that their characters were actually treated like individuals and you could have that replayability, you had the choice to do so. The individualization is what made ESO different from everything else out there.

I struggle to understand people anyways... but this seems unfathomable to me that anybody would be okay with an implementation that literally destroys the game for some people, even if it does slightly improve it for them.

Mythgard1967 · April 2022

That is because you are only looking at that single example as the whole. There have been many other examples provided.

Necrotech_Master · April 2022

tmbrinks wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

But...

Account-wide doesn't save you any time on creating and/or playing a new character...

You still have to collect all the skyshards for skill points, you still have to do the quests for the skill points. You still have to separately grind up MG/FG/PO/Undaunted skill lines.

Even before when you did the monster trophies on a character it unlocked the dye for your entire account. When you learned a motif on one character it unlocked the style page on your entire account. When you earned a momento from an achievement, it was unlocked for your entire account.

Yes, I get that ZoS could have eased a pain point, and allowed "meta" achievements across characters to unlock the relevant dyes/titles/etc... Fine. There's like a dozen of those.

So much of the game was already account-wide. But for those of us that played "characters", we lost all of that... Did people really play with a fear of being on an alt character that happened to get the "flawless tail feather" for the monster trophies? Because that's an argument I hear from the "pro-AWA" crowd. I don't buy it.

for me personally, yes i absolutely hated getting the monster trophy drops i needed on my main when on an alt because they were so uncommon (if i knew AWA was coming i probably wouldnt have spent about 3 weeks worth of total time last year just grinding out the remainder of those trophies)

i also looked at some of those slayer achievements for dungeons, i mean 50 freaking flame colossus in city of ash 2 vet, and there are maybe 3 in the whole dungeon (at least 1-2 can easily be skipped), ive literally never had the motivation to try to work on some of those achievements because playing alts would have essentially not made any progress to getting that (with the AWA though im up to like 19-20 total flame colossus kills because thats what i have achieved as a player across my toons)

i still think they could have done a better job with the AWA that would have made both camps happy, i personally treat all my characters as individuals, but i see achievements as the effort i have put in, and per character achievements have always made me feel like i was locked into playing my main on content to get the achievements because the progress was not shared

another note is that now that the titles are shared too, i can finally put thematic titles on toons as ive unlocked them (an example is im debating if my WW toon should have "hircines champion" or "alpha predator", and he didnt earn either of them personally, but thematically/RP wise it makes more sense lol)

There's 6. It took me on like 3 runs to ask the group "Hey, can we kill all of the flame colossuses in here?" to finish it. Sounds like a great reason to take away from so many others, when other implementations wouldn't have.

I also got the tail feather on 3 separate alts (running pledges in Blackheart Haven usually) before on my main. And as I said, for those few "meta" achievements, whatever, they used to be tradable on your account so they were account wide... they could have done that again... but instead we got this.

if there are 6, and you kill 6 every run that is still effectively 9 runs minimum on 1 toon, IF you killed all of them every one on every run

i would rather have the option to run multiple toons through the dungeon and still work on the same "progress bar"

again, i never said that this implementation was ideal (and ive said before i would have been fine if they just added an account achievement section to the collection menu without touching characters), and i know there are others who treat the achievements differently than i do, but i personally am not unhappy with having them being account wide and see it as allowing me a lot more flexibility to use different toons in the content than just grinding away dozens of dungeon runs on 1 toon

I guess I'm just disappointed that people are okay with taking away from how so many play... because it's 9 runs on one character. 9.

People getting a small, tiny QoL update letting them run a dungeon on 9 different characters instead of 9 times on one... at the expense of tons of players losing, in many cases, one of the biggest draws to this game over others in that their characters were actually treated like individuals and you could have that replayability, you had the choice to do so. The individualization is what made ESO different from everything else out there.

I struggle to understand people anyways... but this seems unfathomable to me that anybody would be okay with an implementation that literally destroys the game for some people, even if it does slightly improve it for them.

for that 1 slayer achievement, what about the other 40 (not exact count just for example) non dlc slayer achievements? your looking at over 100+ dungeon runs on 1 toon, this is what i was talking about, the slayer achievements are all over the place with how many runs they require (from a minimum of like 3 up to like a minimum of 20)

for those who used the achievements for other purposes on tracking each toon, i do feel bad that you can no longer "play how you want", and i know that there are known issues related to some of the quests/encounters and i do believe that those should be fixed since those definitely shouldnt be tied to the achievement

from what i can tell this type of situation is almost the same as the BG queue situation, there are people that only like deathmatch, and those who want to avoid deathmatch, and all of their queue tests and their current final solution are still not ideal for either party although it is more tolerable to one party (currently the non-DM party)

tmbrinks · April 2022

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

That is because you are only looking at that single example as the whole. There have been many other examples provided.

I'm responding to the example provided.

Plenty of others have been given on the other side as well.

Please at least be fair.

tmbrinks · April 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

But...

Account-wide doesn't save you any time on creating and/or playing a new character...

You still have to collect all the skyshards for skill points, you still have to do the quests for the skill points. You still have to separately grind up MG/FG/PO/Undaunted skill lines.

Even before when you did the monster trophies on a character it unlocked the dye for your entire account. When you learned a motif on one character it unlocked the style page on your entire account. When you earned a momento from an achievement, it was unlocked for your entire account.

Yes, I get that ZoS could have eased a pain point, and allowed "meta" achievements across characters to unlock the relevant dyes/titles/etc... Fine. There's like a dozen of those.

So much of the game was already account-wide. But for those of us that played "characters", we lost all of that... Did people really play with a fear of being on an alt character that happened to get the "flawless tail feather" for the monster trophies? Because that's an argument I hear from the "pro-AWA" crowd. I don't buy it.

for me personally, yes i absolutely hated getting the monster trophy drops i needed on my main when on an alt because they were so uncommon (if i knew AWA was coming i probably wouldnt have spent about 3 weeks worth of total time last year just grinding out the remainder of those trophies)

i also looked at some of those slayer achievements for dungeons, i mean 50 freaking flame colossus in city of ash 2 vet, and there are maybe 3 in the whole dungeon (at least 1-2 can easily be skipped), ive literally never had the motivation to try to work on some of those achievements because playing alts would have essentially not made any progress to getting that (with the AWA though im up to like 19-20 total flame colossus kills because thats what i have achieved as a player across my toons)

i still think they could have done a better job with the AWA that would have made both camps happy, i personally treat all my characters as individuals, but i see achievements as the effort i have put in, and per character achievements have always made me feel like i was locked into playing my main on content to get the achievements because the progress was not shared

another note is that now that the titles are shared too, i can finally put thematic titles on toons as ive unlocked them (an example is im debating if my WW toon should have "hircines champion" or "alpha predator", and he didnt earn either of them personally, but thematically/RP wise it makes more sense lol)

There's 6. It took me on like 3 runs to ask the group "Hey, can we kill all of the flame colossuses in here?" to finish it. Sounds like a great reason to take away from so many others, when other implementations wouldn't have.

I also got the tail feather on 3 separate alts (running pledges in Blackheart Haven usually) before on my main. And as I said, for those few "meta" achievements, whatever, they used to be tradable on your account so they were account wide... they could have done that again... but instead we got this.

if there are 6, and you kill 6 every run that is still effectively 9 runs minimum on 1 toon, IF you killed all of them every one on every run

i would rather have the option to run multiple toons through the dungeon and still work on the same "progress bar"

again, i never said that this implementation was ideal (and ive said before i would have been fine if they just added an account achievement section to the collection menu without touching characters), and i know there are others who treat the achievements differently than i do, but i personally am not unhappy with having them being account wide and see it as allowing me a lot more flexibility to use different toons in the content than just grinding away dozens of dungeon runs on 1 toon

I guess I'm just disappointed that people are okay with taking away from how so many play... because it's 9 runs on one character. 9.

People getting a small, tiny QoL update letting them run a dungeon on 9 different characters instead of 9 times on one... at the expense of tons of players losing, in many cases, one of the biggest draws to this game over others in that their characters were actually treated like individuals and you could have that replayability, you had the choice to do so. The individualization is what made ESO different from everything else out there.

I struggle to understand people anyways... but this seems unfathomable to me that anybody would be okay with an implementation that literally destroys the game for some people, even if it does slightly improve it for them.

for that 1 slayer achievement, what about the other 40 (not exact count just for example) non dlc slayer achievements? your looking at over 100+ dungeon runs on 1 toon, this is what i was talking about, the slayer achievements are all over the place with how many runs they require (from a minimum of like 3 up to like a minimum of 20)

for those who used the achievements for other purposes on tracking each toon, i do feel bad that you can no longer "play how you want", and i know that there are known issues related to some of the quests/encounters and i do believe that those should be fixed since those definitely shouldnt be tied to the achievement

from what i can tell this type of situation is almost the same as the BG queue situation, there are people that only like deathmatch, and those who want to avoid deathmatch, and all of their queue tests and their current final solution are still not ideal for either party although it is more tolerable to one party (currently the non-DM party)

And that's the crux of the matter.

A core tenant of ESO has been "play as you want" said by devs in streams, said in advertising, etc..

A change takes away "play as you want" from the game for a lot of players.

Yet, for those who get that small benefit from it... most just stand by in silence and let it happen, or worse yet, those who tell everybody who has disagreed with the change to "suck it up and just deal with it" (as dozens of posters in these threads have repeatedly done... over and over and over)

And through it all... ZoS says nothing.

Mythgard1967 · April 2022

Oh, I fully understand the other side and I even agree with you on the other side. The part I don't agree with is belittling the valid reasons for wanting AWA as if to say one side is wrong.

Neither side is actually wrong. Both are perfectly valid and both have a lot of examples. Both are equally valid.

The issue isn't that the people who wanted AWA are wrong; nor is that the people who don't want are wrong. It is that the needs for both were not met.

AWA would have worked had there not been character "flavor" built into achievements (for world reactions) as well as content being tied to achievements based on quest completion vs quest achievement directly coupled with there is no "quest log" for completed quests/events. That was all driven by achievements and fed the map. And AWA would not have been desired had there not been cosmetics/dyes/whatnot attached to multiple achievements conjointly (ok, and titles too...but i admit to not caring much about titles) and fairly icky grindfests attached to both achievements AND cosmetics (including dyes).

All of the discussions are centered on which side is largest and who felt the most pain like any one side is WRONG. People who want AWA are not wrong because you feel like their gain was small because you don't understand their gain any more than you are wrong because you lost something. Those who want AwA because they experienced a loss of freedom in how the play for 8 years. You feel pain because now you have lost your freedom.

Both sides are right; and arguing between those sides over which side is bigger or feels the most pain is fruitless.

Asking to have Flavor restored to the world (and I don't use flavor to minimalize either...it IS important) and to have adequate completion tracking due to losing those with how AWA was implemented is probably more fruitful...and...you would get the "otherside" supporting and agreeing with you on that.

Making posts about how "There isnt enough good" or "what benefit could there possibly be" or "performance reasons are bogus" using a lot of loaded of terms meant to make people feel small and marginalized so that you can feel like your concerns need more attention...is not helpful (and both sides...including myself have done this).

Instead; can we agree that world flavor (immersion, and please let me experience that certain epilogue again) and completion tracking is important....and so is removing unnecessarily grindy things is also important????

Kesstryl · April 2022

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

Oh, I fully understand the other side and I even agree with you on the other side. The part I don't agree with is belittling the valid reasons for wanting AWA as if to say one side is wrong.

Neither side is actually wrong. Both are perfectly valid and both have a lot of examples. Both are equally valid.

The issue isn't that the people who wanted AWA are wrong; nor is that the people who don't want are wrong. It is that the needs for both were not met.

AWA would have worked had there not been character "flavor" built into achievements (for world reactions) as well as content being tied to achievements based on quest completion vs quest achievement directly coupled with there is no "quest log" for completed quests/events. That was all driven by achievements and fed the map. And AWA would not have been desired had there not been cosmetics/dyes/whatnot attached to multiple achievements conjointly (ok, and titles too...but i admit to not caring much about titles) and fairly icky grindfests attached to both achievements AND cosmetics (including dyes).

All of the discussions are centered on which side is largest and who felt the most pain like any one side is WRONG. People who want AWA are not wrong because you feel like their gain was small because you don't understand their gain any more than you are wrong because you lost something. Those who want AwA because they experienced a loss of freedom in how the play for 8 years. You feel pain because now you have lost your freedom.

Both sides are right; and arguing between those sides over which side is bigger or feels the most pain is fruitless.

Asking to have Flavor restored to the world (and I don't use flavor to minimalize either...it IS important) and to have adequate completion tracking due to losing those with how AWA was implemented is probably more fruitful...and...you would get the "otherside" supporting and agreeing with you on that.

Making posts about how "There isnt enough good" or "what benefit could there possibly be" or "performance reasons are bogus" using a lot of loaded of terms meant to make people feel small and marginalized so that you can feel like your concerns need more attention...is not helpful (and both sides...including myself have done this).

Instead; can we agree that world flavor (immersion, and please let me experience that certain epilogue again) and completion tracking is important....and so is removing unnecessarily grindy things is also important????

That's what I HAVE been asking for. All my posts have been about decoupling NPCs from achievements and moving their dialogue choices and chatter flavor to quest completion (story, dungeons, skills, etc, anything that has a quest). I've been asking for the achievement only quests to be restored to alts. They could add a simple check to the quest data, did this quest get done and did Count Verandis (or insert any of the other effected NPCs) complete dialogue stages? Yes - Verandis does not appear on balcony. No - Verandis appears on balcony and offers epilogue to the alt. I started asking for these things to be fixed by second week of PTS when I became aware of them. When the Q&A went up and I realized I had to let go of my individual character achievements, I begged ZOS even more on PTS to fix these things. I'm still begging them to fix them. I'd be thrilled if more people in the community would join me in asking for these things to be fixed and restored, no matter which side they fall on in this debate.

Edit - yes I want better tracking too. Decouple the zone guide from achievements. Give a more robust quest log so we can track what we already did as well as what we are doing right now. Fix the map, this auto completion of stuff on discovery is silly.

Mythgard1967 · April 2022

Kesstryl wrote: »

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

Oh, I fully understand the other side and I even agree with you on the other side. The part I don't agree with is belittling the valid reasons for wanting AWA as if to say one side is wrong.

Neither side is actually wrong. Both are perfectly valid and both have a lot of examples. Both are equally valid.

The issue isn't that the people who wanted AWA are wrong; nor is that the people who don't want are wrong. It is that the needs for both were not met.

AWA would have worked had there not been character "flavor" built into achievements (for world reactions) as well as content being tied to achievements based on quest completion vs quest achievement directly coupled with there is no "quest log" for completed quests/events. That was all driven by achievements and fed the map. And AWA would not have been desired had there not been cosmetics/dyes/whatnot attached to multiple achievements conjointly (ok, and titles too...but i admit to not caring much about titles) and fairly icky grindfests attached to both achievements AND cosmetics (including dyes).

All of the discussions are centered on which side is largest and who felt the most pain like any one side is WRONG. People who want AWA are not wrong because you feel like their gain was small because you don't understand their gain any more than you are wrong because you lost something. Those who want AwA because they experienced a loss of freedom in how the play for 8 years. You feel pain because now you have lost your freedom.

Both sides are right; and arguing between those sides over which side is bigger or feels the most pain is fruitless.

Asking to have Flavor restored to the world (and I don't use flavor to minimalize either...it IS important) and to have adequate completion tracking due to losing those with how AWA was implemented is probably more fruitful...and...you would get the "otherside" supporting and agreeing with you on that.

Making posts about how "There isnt enough good" or "what benefit could there possibly be" or "performance reasons are bogus" using a lot of loaded of terms meant to make people feel small and marginalized so that you can feel like your concerns need more attention...is not helpful (and both sides...including myself have done this).

Instead; can we agree that world flavor (immersion, and please let me experience that certain epilogue again) and completion tracking is important....and so is removing unnecessarily grindy things is also important????

That's what I HAVE been asking for. All my posts have been about decoupling NPCs from achievements and moving their dialogue choices and chatter flavor to quest completion (story, dungeons, skills, etc, anything that has a quest). I've been asking for the achievement only quests to be restored to alts. They could add a simple check to the quest data, did this quest get done and did Count Verandis (or insert any of the other effected NPCs) complete dialogue stages? Yes - Verandis does not appear on balcony. No - Verandis appears on balcony and offers epilogue to the alt. I started asking for these things to be fixed by second week of PTS when I became aware of them. When the Q&A went up and I realized I had to let go of my individual character achievements, I begged ZOS even more on PTS to fix these things. I'm still begging them to fix them. I'd be thrilled if more people in the community would join me in asking for these things to be fixed and restored, no matter which side they fall on in this debate.

Edit - yes I want better tracking too. Decouple the zone guide from achievements. Give a more robust quest log so we can track what we already did as well as what we are doing right now. Fix the map, this auto completion of stuff on discovery is silly.

And you, I totally agree with and still thank you for responding to me about why these things are important to you!

EDIT: Also, thank you for never making me feel like the bad guy for liking what we got in AWA....actually...it isn't even fair to say I wanted AWA.....I think...iirc...I voted against on one of the polls.....but I do appreciate the good in it.

Sylvermynx · April 2022

I've always said since the beginning of this [snip] mess that I while not into achievements and titles myself REALLY wanted to see ZOS make the whole thing work for everyone. That didn't happen, and I'm very sad for those of you on the outside looking back at what was before, and might have been had ZOS reacted more appropriately.

The whole shebang is just wrong. I would have been perfectly happy had nothing changed - because I would still be playing as I always have and do now, and all of you now lost because of this hot garbage would have also been happy.

It's actually criminal....

[Edited for Inappropriate Language]

kringled_1 · April 2022

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

Oh, I fully understand the other side and I even agree with you on the other side. The part I don't agree with is belittling the valid reasons for wanting AWA as if to say one side is wrong.

Neither side is actually wrong. Both are perfectly valid and both have a lot of examples. Both are equally valid.

The issue isn't that the people who wanted AWA are wrong; nor is that the people who don't want are wrong. It is that the needs for both were not met.

AWA would have worked had there not been character "flavor" built into achievements (for world reactions) as well as content being tied to achievements based on quest completion vs quest achievement directly coupled with there is no "quest log" for completed quests/events. That was all driven by achievements and fed the map. And AWA would not have been desired had there not been cosmetics/dyes/whatnot attached to multiple achievements conjointly (ok, and titles too...but i admit to not caring much about titles) and fairly icky grindfests attached to both achievements AND cosmetics (including dyes).

All of the discussions are centered on which side is largest and who felt the most pain like any one side is WRONG. People who want AWA are not wrong because you feel like their gain was small because you don't understand their gain any more than you are wrong because you lost something. Those who want AwA because they experienced a loss of freedom in how the play for 8 years. You feel pain because now you have lost your freedom.

Both sides are right; and arguing between those sides over which side is bigger or feels the most pain is fruitless.

Asking to have Flavor restored to the world (and I don't use flavor to minimalize either...it IS important) and to have adequate completion tracking due to losing those with how AWA was implemented is probably more fruitful...and...you would get the "otherside" supporting and agreeing with you on that.

Making posts about how "There isnt enough good" or "what benefit could there possibly be" or "performance reasons are bogus" using a lot of loaded of terms meant to make people feel small and marginalized so that you can feel like your concerns need more attention...is not helpful (and both sides...including myself have done this).

Instead; can we agree that world flavor (immersion, and please let me experience that certain epilogue again) and completion tracking is important....and so is removing unnecessarily grindy things is also important????

I don''t think a strict classifier of people as pro-AWA or anti is that useful. For me, for example, while this version of AWA gave me a couple of things I wanted, it did so at a cost that was larger than the benefits. But because there were things I wanted, I was cautiously optimistic when it was first announced and grew disillusioned with the details. It sounds like you're just on the other side of that fence from where I am.
Even within that, you end up with things like the monster trophies, which are everyone's poster child for AWA because of how RNG grindy they are. I definitely wanted those. I wanted to be able to know what achievements I had on other characters. I didn't want to lose my ability to track difficult things like vet DLC HMs and trifectas across multiple characters and roles without a spreadsheet.

Personally, I'll ask questions about other peoples reasons for AWA, not to belittle, but to understand.
I've asked/wondered about two broad kinds of pro-AWA statements. (Things like people wanting titles across all characters I think I understand well enough, even if I didnt care very much).
There are some statements like "AWA means I can play more without having to catch up", in which case I wonder if the author is under the misimpression that having say the Undaunted skill line master achievement will keep them from having to level Undaunted on a new character (which it doesn't in this implementation), or if they are just super strongly driven by getting achievements in general to the point that they feel almost compelled to do them.
The other is to better understand people who are super achievement motivated. While I can put this together logically, I'm not that motivated by achievements in and of themselves. I am motivated by achievements that represent fun to me, or that present an interesting challenge; I can definitely understand people wanting cosmetics. But there's a lot of achievements in the game that I don't find particularly interesting or challenging or fun, and that don't really have any rewards. These ones I will not choose to chase. Some may happen, some will not. I put Necrotech's dungeon slayer achievements into that category - I personally think of these as filler, they are essentially surrogates for "did you run the dungeon x times". Prior to update 33, I paid attention to a few of the dlc ones because they gave a large chunk of XP, but that's been removed. I may never fully understand the desire to get these done; I've personally completed all but the Ascending Tide ones but that's because I like doing vet and vet DLC dungeons, so it just happens. Or not. I guess I'm not willing to commit my own sense of goals in a game to what someone in the dev time decides without my own filter, so we don't end up with abominations like "Murkmire Prepper". In this case while I may never fully understand the other person, I am asking because I want to try.

barney2525 · April 2022

Here's the bottom line.
Achievements have always been designed to be character specific. That's where the character's Story comes from. That's why up to now (how many YEARs has this been understood ? ) the Achievement applies to the character, and any Benefits from the Achievement apply to the Account (dyes, items, whatever)

Enuff players who only look at Numbers and have no interest in simply 'Playing' the game, complained about it for many years. Making Achievements flat out Account wide is a bad idea that Ruins the Game Play aspect. But its no different than the watching these characters run past all the npc bad guys to the final spot - grab the item - run back out, ignoring any conflicts or interaction with the NPCs. Just Get The Final Stuff Once.

Accumulating " Stuff " has never been the point of this game, but many players have that mindset. Everything is simply Accumulating stuff Once and that's all there is to this (or any other) game.

So, for whatever reason - and judging from the login issues we are having, it Ain't to make the servers more stable - the company decided to roll over and make the switch. And now Lore means nothing. All that work they put into making this a deep story/lore game - wiped out.

Too many players don't Play the game. They are just Accountants adding up numbers.

IMHO

Mythgard1967 · April 2022

I have plenty of interest in playing the game. I also enjoy the lore. I also have back stories and identities for my characters. I just don't like being locked into only ONE character due to how achievements worked in providing things like dye stamps, some body and face markings and other cosmetics.

Having to experience everything in game through ONE character was just so awful. But it was that' or using multiple characters and not unlocking those cosmetics.

But now???? I am not LOCKED into one character anymore. I can enjoy multiple characters and I can choose who I am playing each time based on which character I must identify with at that time or that class I want to play at the time.....vs....that one character that I am stifled into if I want to unlock all of the rewards.

And now, I can even enjoy that one character I had grown to hate because of the absence of something like AWA. Because i am now no longer forced into that singular point of view to experience the game and the story and the lore.

And for the record....accumulating stuff is pretty much the reason for ALL games; even this one. If it wasn't; well...it could be a choose your own adventure book. It clearly IS important to accumulate stuff. Especially all those lovely dye's and head and body patterns...and outfits. To craft a unique look that sets you apart that allows you to identify with the character you react to the world with.

EDIT: all prior is just In my opinion and what is important to me.....there are those that are all about accumulating the armor stuffs to craft the perfect combat experience to push end content.....which is also a VALID way to play. I am just not assuming my way is the only way to play and that anyone who doesnt play my way is nothing but an accountant. What exactly is so bad about accountants that add up numbers anyway???? I mean so bad they deserve the qualifier of "just" as to imply they should be dismissed????

Selminus · April 2022

Tomboski wrote: »

1. I can't freely tp to any location that I've already conquered/completed.
2. I can't help anyone who needs a tp to a location that I've already conquered/completed.
3. [snip] else do you want from me?

[edited for profanity bypass]

Makes the meta achievements much more doable and appealing. Challengers etc. You can tackle them on multiple classes/roles. This is a big benefit.

Amerises · April 2022

The biggest issue for me is finding other people to help with achievements. Now once you do it, you don't have to ever again. It's so difficult finding a decent group for vBRP or vDSA because of transmutes and now achievements. Oh, you want a skin? Good luck. At least achievements were incentive to have people help because skins were account wide, and now, what's the point for someone else?

Maybe if there was a steady influx of new people coming, but it seems most players have been around for a while.

Dojohoda · April 2022

We lost a great list, a per character list, for the sake of potential backend improvements.

Kesstryl · April 2022

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

I have plenty of interest in playing the game. I also enjoy the lore. I also have back stories and identities for my characters. I just don't like being locked into only ONE character due to how achievements worked in providing things like dye stamps, some body and face markings and other cosmetics.

Having to experience everything in game through ONE character was just so awful. But it was that' or using multiple characters and not unlocking those cosmetics.

But now???? I am not LOCKED into one character anymore. I can enjoy multiple characters and I can choose who I am playing each time based on which character I must identify with at that time or that class I want to play at the time.....vs....that one character that I am stifled into if I want to unlock all of the rewards.

And now, I can even enjoy that one character I had grown to hate because of the absence of something like AWA. Because i am now no longer forced into that singular point of view to experience the game and the story and the lore.

And for the record....accumulating stuff is pretty much the reason for ALL games; even this one. If it wasn't; well...it could be a choose your own adventure book. It clearly IS important to accumulate stuff. Especially all those lovely dye's and head and body patterns...and outfits. To craft a unique look that sets you apart that allows you to identify with the character you react to the world with.

EDIT: all prior is just In my opinion and what is important to me.....there are those that are all about accumulating the armor stuffs to craft the perfect combat experience to push end content.....which is also a VALID way to play. I am just not assuming my way is the only way to play and that anyone who doesnt play my way is nothing but an accountant. What exactly is so bad about accountants that add up numbers anyway???? I mean so bad they deserve the qualifier of "just" as to imply they should be dismissed????

On the flip side, just expressing my view not to contradict you, but to offer how achievements before AwA effected me. I never felt compelled to do everything on one character. Since my characters each had their own stories, I picked which zones to do based on who they were, and which achievements to go after based on who they were. Since ESO has this freedom that doesn't railroad you into a linear story where you have to do everything in a specific order to get to endgame, it was perfect, and achievements were the perfect way to track a character's growth as a person in the game world. I loved that I only got the story, dungeon, trial, pvp, etc achievements on an alt based on how I played them. It really was a means to track and tell their story. I never felt constrained to do everything on one character, ever. Now with the irritating "earned by" thing, it really does constrain me to have to really be careful what I do or I could get the wrong achievement attributed to the wrong alt which is not part of their story. I wish they would rather just give the date the achievement was completed and leave off the earned by. That's constraining. Yes I could use an addon to get rid of it, but I still KNOW it's there, and it bothers me anyway.

That being said, I hope for something else to be built into the system to tell our character stories since achievements are now gone for that. A more robust quest log, better zone guide, better map tracking, and I'd really love a biography feature so we can write a bio for our alts and other players could read them. Some of the older school MMOs had this feature and it was great for role players. If non RPers don't want to tell a story about their alts, use it to list all the dungeon and trial accomplishments for that alt, or parse scores.

Edit, by the way, thank you for your reply to my other post, I appreciate people who take the time to listen.

KMarble · April 2022

tmbrinks wrote: »

...

And through it all... ZoS says nothing.

Their silence made me cancel my sub and prevented me from buying the new chapter. Their ineptitude fixing all the messes after U33 (be them software, hardware or the further division of the player base) keeps me from changing my mind.

Time and time again I've read/heard the devs praise this community - how nice we are, how we're the best community in any MMO (granted, everybody kind of says the same about their games) - yet, with their silence ZOS allowed people to blame the "other" groups in absurd and vitriolic ways.

No group of players was spared during this fiasco - PvPers, role players, end-game players, casual, console players... If there is a "tag" to a play style, they got blamed.

When I saw the website article and the Q&A about AWA, I was furious. ZOS took the accusations that were flying around in the PTS thread and ran with it. They made the people who wanted AWA into their scapegoat. Because, I guess the rifts between PvP/PvE or end-game/casual weren't enough.

joerginger · April 2022

KMarble wrote: »

When I saw the website article and the Q&A about AWA, I was furious. ZOS took the accusations that were flying around in the PTS thread and ran with it. They made the people who wanted AWA into their scapegoat. Because, I guess the rifts between PvP/PvE or end-game/casual weren't enough.

Agreed. This was incredibly annoying.

Kallykat · April 2022

When I first heard AWA announced, I was cautiously optimistic. I don't care much about achievements in and of themselves, and titles mean nothing to me. (I don't read them on others, and if there are any attached to my characters, they were attached so long ago that I don't have a clue what they say.) However, I am a little bit of a completionist by nature, and there were achievements and rewards I never expected to get in this game, which not seemed slightly more possible. I liked the idea of not having to grind 100 *insert specific mob* on a single character to complete an achievement. I can understand how people who play dungeons, especially at higher tiers, would like rare achievements to count toward the same trifecta achievement no matter which character they were playing on when they earned the achievement.

Unfortunately, as I learned more about what AWA entailed, I was devasted. The cost of losing individual character tracking, dialogue options, and the map changes horrified me. It hurt the RP and stories of my individual characters. In addition, there is some satisfaction I got by earning certain achievements multiple times on new characters. I want to be able to take a new character to a zone I haven't completed since my main character played it when ESO first launched and experience the quest and dialogue and achievements again as if for the first time. I don't want my DB character's story and accomplishments to have any overlap whatsoever with those of my upright characters. Overall, if it was just about my own happiness, I would rather the whole thing be reverted, but I know that won't happen.

I understand that not everyone plays the game the way I do. That's great. "Playing you way" is one of the primary selling points of this game and franchise. It's unfortunate that ZOS didn't take the time to come up with a solution that would be beneficial to the people who wanted AWA without decimating the playstyle of others. Some things could have been AW while others remained character-based, or other character-progress-tracking systems could have been implemented first. Certain things could have been divorced from achievements. I've seen lots of suggestions on these boards. Sadly, for whatever reason, ZOS decided to push forward even when many players warned them that AWA was not what it should be yet. As Oreyn_Bearclaw posted earlier, "ZOS used a sledgehammer when a scalpel was called for."

The most frustrating part is the lack of acknowledgment by ZOS of the problems this has caused for a large number of players and the refusal to address whether or not many of these problems will be fixed or whether they are even viewed as problems. At minimum, I would like to know if conversations are being had by the devs regarding tweaks to the current AWA system or implementation of a system/solution that might restore some hope for those players who were negatively affected by the current AWA system.

newtinmpls · April 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

It could have been good if it was implemented along side individual character achievements, instead of replacing them.

And it could have been good if it didn't completely remove the ability to track individual character progress through the zone map for the multitude of players who play their characters as individuals.

It is my preference to use on a given character the titles that character has earned.

Now I can't tell.

It is my preference to have NPC dialogue reflect what my characters have actually done.

Now it doesn't

Mushroomancer wrote: »

Here is the thing I don't get about RPers who complain about AwA, and this is a genuine question, don't want to throw any shade at anyone or be facetious. How can you rationalize hundreds of fellow "chosen ones" running around, a lot of them with ridiculous, immersion-shattering outfits and names, but you cannot fathom not equipping a title which is an optional cosmetic line of text? Also, if immersion and authenticity is your main concern, how is having pop-ups of quite arbitrary milestones being reached not immersion breaking? Imagine having a loud pop-up showing up out of thin air when you got a new job IRL, so authentic.

I'll restate the questions:

1-How is it that multiple characters (of mine and others) are being referred to as "vestige"?

For me the answer is simple: Dragonbreak. During a dragonbreak there is a pivotal role around which the fabric of the universe "bends" and according to TES lore, not only is it "just one person" it can also be "multiple strains of history".

Like others, I do not view all my characters as "the vestige"; and being "on the inside" neither do they. I would also say that in my headcannon, only those who are/were "the vestige" can travel via wayshrines and do similar things because the connection between their soul and time and mundus has changed.

2- why does who earned the title VS who is using the title a big deal?

Chess VS checkers. I RPG. Sorta like chess - each peice has a role, and some can be quite similar to each other (i.e. the white and black bishops) but their capabilities do NOT always overlap, and that matters. In checkers, the pieces don't matter as individuals - it's "the player".

So RPG'ers play characters; AWA'ers play accounts.

3-Do RPG'ers consider in-game announcements (such as 'you have completed X') to be immersion breaking?

For me the answer is "no", no more than as a paper and pen RPG'er I would consider my character sheet to be "immersion breaking". it's a tool to allow my full and accurate participation.

I answer these because I like the exploration of ideas. That being said, I don't really think they were meant as respectful curiosity, and because of that wariness, I am curious myself to see what comes next.

RevJJ · April 2022

The biggest achievement ZOS got themselves is that they managed to create a huge rift in the community they say they care about so much, and their continued silence on the topic just keeps making it worse.

Well done ZOS, I hope you are proud of yourselves.

Vulkunne · April 2022

Tomboski wrote: »

1. I can't freely tp to any location that I've already conquered/completed.
2. I can't help anyone who needs a tp to a location that I've already conquered/completed.
3. [snip] else do you want from me?

[edited for profanity bypass]

It just works Tom.

Vulkunne · April 2022

Saieden wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Saieden wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

It’s great for players who like to play multiple characters especially in competitive content. I no longer need to stress what class I should bring to trial or dungeon groups and miss out on titles or other rewards for other characters.

Until you realize that now even social guilds that do organized vet trials for beginners and intermediates are pretty much forced to ask players to provide logs of their respective roles. Instead of a simple screenshot to show that they are ready to progress into harder content because achievements mean. This will be a huge barrier to entry for many, and will only feed the false perceptions that "all players who do vet trials and look at logs are toxic gate-keeping metagamers."

God knows what it will be like for console.

Uh...I hope you aren't saying people running trials for beginners are asking the beginners for their logs, because that doesn't make sense. If you're a beginner the whole point of "beginner" raids is to learn how to do them, not be expected to already know enough to provide logs. If they're trying to move on to harder content then maybe just...take them them through the harder content and see how they do? Live results will tell you more than a single static image that might have been the result of good luck or something.

This honestly seems better, imo. It might take more time to "test" someone's progress but it seems to me it should be worth that extra effort to ensure people are learning properly, instead of just wanting to shoot them through stuff as fast as humanly possible.

Not absolute beginner, obviously, I mean players that have completed vet craglorn trials/HMs to join DLC vet trials would typically post an achievement (along with parse or owned gear sets) to get a rank to join for their role. No (successful) training guilds will accept a tank into vKA if they've cleared it on dps, but never any tanked a vet trial before, this is the issue now with AWA. Before, the amount work and effort it would take to apply as a "fake-role" (i.e cleared as DPS and applying for healer rank) was enough of a deterrent to stop 99.99% of would-be's. Now, you just log in and every toon has all the clears without necessarily setting a foot into actual content, so guilds that required achievements previously for mid-tier difficulty are basically forced to ask for logs.

The problem with "just see how they do" is that 11 other people are involved and have to set time aside IRL to be there, and if people's time is wasted because the healer has never had to interrupt flameshapers before, they will just leave the guild. So raid leads put a system in place to stop this from happening as far as is reasonable. No one is being pushed through as fast as possible, except by the player themselves (by signing up and grinding as much as they can through their own determination), it's simply a way to efficiently handle hundreds of potential applicants, otherwise no one would get anywhere.

Oh my God. This is AWESOME

And I never even thought about why. Thank you Saieden for proving the very thing many of us warned them about before implementing this patch.

I swear we're either a bunch of modern day prophets or this mistake made by ZOS has become a self-fulfilling prophecy in its own right.

Can anyone explain to me how *Account Wide Acheivements* is a beneficial feature?

Can anyone explain to me how Account Wide Acheivements is a beneficial feature?