Disbanding the Group should require a vote...

Jusey1 · March 2022

So, I wanted to talk about something real quick here that I have seen happen a few times... When doing a PUG random dungeon or just a specific dungeon queue with random players, I have learned that the group leader can just disband the group freely with no consequences to themselves as far as I know. Now granted, they only do this after the dungeon is complete but it is still a very selfish move to do because you're forcing everyone else to be on a timer now since that dungeon instance will now be deleted without the group. This is really bad, and honestly I would consider it to be a toxic thing to do as some players might want to stay in that dungeon for a bit longer, maybe even to go back and finish something that the group skipped or miss... Actually, let me paint a picture:

You're a mostly average normal dps player who wants to do the secret bosses in a given dungeon, such as the ones in Unhallowed Grave. So you queue up for DPS for that dungeon in normal because you can't solo it completely on your own (maybe the secret bosses but not the whole dungeon). You wait 30 to 40 minutes perhaps to finally get queued up for it, and the dungeon start. However, you got one or two players who are hard Veterans just doing their Daily Dungeon to get that done ASAP and quickly, so they just book it and start rushing the entire thing, even if you spoke up in the chat. Maybe two out of three of your comrades agree to help ya with the secret bosses, but the 3rd one doesn't care (perhaps have chat muted and hidden) and just rushes it. Since you are FORCED to join events, you cannot do the secret bosses naturally with the dungeon, but that's no big deal. You can do it after the dungeon is completed since this rusher can just leave the group...

So, you do the whole thing really quick with this Veteran player, completely the whole dungeon with ease and got to the end, ready to take the portal back to the beginning to start doing the secret bosses except one problem. That rusher, the guy who has been ignoring you this whole time is the group leader and he disbanded the group, so now you have a time limit. Even if you regroup, the original group for that dungeon's instance has disbanded and thus you can't do it, instead you and the two others has to redo the entire dungeon... But only if they want to. The other two could've just left the dungeon after the disband, not wanting to do the whole thing all over again forcing you to be stuck with reque all over again, starting from scratch.

I know this is just one example, but the idea is that by forcibly disbanding the group, you're forcing everyone else to leave. You aren't allowing them to have the option to explore, do side stuff you skipped, etc and that can be stressful to deal with... Yet there is literally no reason to do such a thing. If you're done, just leave. Why disband? I can understand keeping the option available but it should require a majority vote. Don't force people.

Also, no this didn't happen to me. I can solo dungeons just fine and in some cases, to avoid other players ruining the dungeon or it's quest for me, I will just solo it. However, when I am in the dungeon queue, I see the leader disbanding the group every now and then. Despite it having no consequence on me, it still makes me so very angry and annoyed because what if other players are new to the dungeon for example? Anytime when I see players in the group who said that they're new to the dungeon, and I know this dungeon has secrets... I will offer to help them with the secrets even if I wanted to rush the dungeon's completion. I don't mind spending the extra time to being nice, and if I were too busy to do it myself, I'll explain to them how the secrets are but ask them to let me complete the dungeon first with them and leave, and they can go after the secrets after I left...

But obviously, not every player is going to be like that. The above situation and many more can and probably has happened a few times, yet it can easily be avoided by making disband group be a vote requirement... Which is funny that it isn't because kicking a specific player requires a vote already in this situation, yet disbanding the group does not? I can't even imagine the potential troll behavior that happens because of this from time to time on top of this where someone queues up just to disband the group, forcing everyone out of the dungeon and be unable to queue for a new one for a while... Unless you it does require a vote but only during the Dungeon being Active and not afterwards? If that is case, the vote requirement should stay until everyone left the dungeon instance instead.

Tornaad · March 2022

To be honest, you had me convinced with the title ... so I really did not read much else.

Arunei · March 2022

Doesn't disbanding happen if the group leader leaves the group? Or is it an actual function they have to select? Because if it's the former then no, a person shouldn't need consensus from the group to leave the one they're currently in.

Agenericname · March 2022

Arunei wrote: »

Doesn't disbanding happen if the group leader leaves the group? Or is it an actual function they have to select? Because if it's the former then no, a person shouldn't need consensus from the group to leave the one they're currently in.

Its two different options. Leave or disband.

Stanx · March 2022

Zuboko wrote: »

To be honest, you had me convinced with the title ... so I really did not read much else.

I'm with you 100% here. No more context is needed. I'm on board. Crown should just pass if the leader leaves.

NordSwordnBoard · March 2022

I thought Disband was only available after the qued activity was complete. You can disband a dungeon group mid dungeon just because you're randomly selected as the crown?

edit to add: If I wanted to stay with a friend and wasn't crown, I would ask for crown at the end or to not disband the group. I don't think it needs to be there though, if you want out, just leave. If 4 friends want to reset content, it shouldn't be to hard to separate and rejoin a group.

PUGs can be self destructive as-is lol, no need to give them an actual self destruct button.

Agenericname · March 2022

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I thought Disband was only available after the qued activity was complete. You can disband a dungeon group mid dungeon just because you're randomly selected as the crown?

edit to add: If I wanted to stay with a friend and wasn't crown, I would ask for crown at the end or to not disband the group. I don't think it needs to be there though, if you want out, just leave. If 4 friends want to reset content, it shouldn't be to hard to separate and rejoin a group.

PUGs can be self destructive as-is lol, no need to give them an actual self destruct button.

As far as I know, it is only at the end it is available.

If 4 friends wanted to reset, for instance, a no death or trifecta run that failed prior to the 15 minute mark, they wouldnt want to use the disband option anyway. There are better ways around that. Otherwise simply queueing again would suffice with fewer steps.

I really cant think of a reason of a reason for it to be there. As you say "just leave."

Jusey1 · March 2022

Arunei wrote: »

Doesn't disbanding happen if the group leader leaves the group? Or is it an actual function they have to select?

Latter. If the leader simply leaves, it will automatically pass the crown. I am not sure on how it works when it comes to choosing the leader randomly though.

Amottica · March 2022

Zuboko wrote: »

To be honest, you had me convinced with the title ... so I really did not read much else.

I did not read past the first two sentences either. It is a pretty straightforward issue. From what I understand, it used to be group leader could kick someone at will. Zenimax obviously changes this to require a vote.

The "disband group" should not be an available option for a group finder group to start with. No need for a vote, just grey out the option and do not let it work for GF groups.

I do not know who is the relevant person for this but @ZOS_GinaBruno seems to be the go-to person.

Tornaad · March 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

To be honest, you had me convinced with the title ... so I really did not read much else.

I did not read past the first two sentences either. It is a pretty straightforward issue. From what I understand, it used to be group leader could kick someone at will. Zenimax obviously changes this to require a vote.

The "disband group" should not be an available option for a group finder group to start with. No need for a vote, just grey out the option and do not let it work for GF groups.

I do not know who is the relevant person for this but @ZOS_GinaBruno seems to be the go-to person.

I just relayed this conversation to my wife ... who is very much not a gamer ... she thought a Necromancer was a neck romancer or someone who is in love with their neck.

What I explained to her was that if you have a troll for a player who ends up as group leader you can get a situation where the group leader could disband the group and ruin things for everyone else.

Her response made me laugh, she wasn't sure why you would need more than a sentence or two to describe the problem. No offence is intended to the OP. I just had such a good laugh at how my wife responded I had to share. And with how confused she was it leaves me to wonder why they didn't think of it sooner.

duagloth · March 2022

one player should be able to stay without punishment, no need for a vote. im leaving when im done regardless, im not cool with being held up because someone else wants to stay.

Jusey1 · March 2022

duagloth wrote: »

one player should be able to stay without punishment, no need for a vote. im leaving when im done regardless, im not cool with being held up because someone else wants to stay.

You don't have to disband the group to leave though. There is a difference between leaving and flat-out disbanding the entire group.

Zuboko wrote: »

offence is intended to the OP.

I always prefer to go all in with my thoughts than be short handed, especially if I rarely see the topic at hand being discussed, leaving me no way of understanding "the room", so to say.

Hotdog_23 · March 2022

In short, yes it should be a vote. The crown can always leave if they want and not kick everyone else out on their whim.

Not sure, about a dungeon but a Trial can be disbanded by crown without completing it.

Did a vet pug group trial and the tank started it and was upfront about first time tanking it on vet. We wiped like 6-7 times on last boss and we were telling the tank what to do to in order to not wipe the group in Halls of Fabrication. Boss kept jumping and wiping the group. No one was being mean or rude about it in voice at least and he got mad and disbanded the group. Several other people were also doing the first time on vet and we spent 2 hours there and boom that was it we were all kicked out.

Stay safe and happy hunting

RisenEclipse · March 2022

Hey, as long as I can leave the group and pop off out of there without being forced to remain in group until that one guy checks every container in the dungeon, then I don't really care. If group leader decides to leave then crown should just plop onto someone else. I don't think there should be a counter if there is just one guy left in the dungeon. That's silly. Let them explore and do whatever once the dungeon is over.

But for secret bosses, I've never had an issue with a group doing it, so long as I announce it during the beginning of the run. There's a boss in Wayrest Sewers that is not apart of the quest, kinda out of the way, but is listed in the achievement. The group has no need to kill him to complete the dungeon. But when I went to do the achievement we killed the boss in my first run because I asked if we could make a quick stop to go kill him before we started the run. Sometimes you just need to ask first. Don't ask when the run ends. Most people are probably thinking "ah it's done finally" so when you ask at the end, you'll be adding work when they assumed the work was done. You're unlikely to get a good reaction. Just ask to kill secret bosses in the beginning. Then they can do it while they work to finish the dungeon.

Varana · March 2022

Well, at least you have like two minutes (or whatever the timer is). Until a while ago, you had ten seconds, then the game threw you out.

I'm not sure why the option is there, to be honest, so for me, it doesn't hurt if it is removed.

But the scenario described (in a rather long-winded manner) seems a bit ... niche in my experience. There are exactly two dungeons in the game where this scenario applies (UHG and RPB), and then the [snip] speedrunner needs to have crown, and choose to disband instead of leave the group. That's a lot of coincidences coming together.

[edited for profanity bypass]

spartaxoxo · March 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

To be honest, you had me convinced with the title ... so I really did not read much else.

I did not read past the first two sentences either. It is a pretty straightforward issue. From what I understand, it used to be group leader could kick someone at will. Zenimax obviously changes this to require a vote.

The "disband group" should not be an available option for a group finder group to start with. No need for a vote, just grey out the option and do not let it work for GF groups.

I do not know who is the relevant person for this but @ZOS_GinaBruno seems to be the go-to person.

Disband is useful for GF groups sometimes if something weird is going on with the instance, and it won't let people leave. So I don't think it needs to be removed but definitely should require a vote.

deleted221106-002999 · March 2022

It's very poor design having the 'quit' and 'disband group' options so close in the menu.

I expect that most disbanded groups occur by accident when someone is just trying to quit group.

Jusey1 · March 2022

Varana wrote: »

But the scenario described (in a rather long-winded manner) seems a bit ... niche in my experience. There are exactly two dungeons in the game where this scenario applies (UHG and RPB)

I know at least four dungeons off the top of my head that has secret bosses.

bmnoble · March 2022

Not opposed to adding a vote option before disbanding groups.

I can't remember it happening to me where the group leader disbands a group at the end of a dungeon run though, every group I have been in, we all just basically leave group and go are separate ways.

zaria · March 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

To be honest, you had me convinced with the title ... so I really did not read much else.

I did not read past the first two sentences either. It is a pretty straightforward issue. From what I understand, it used to be group leader could kick someone at will. Zenimax obviously changes this to require a vote.

The "disband group" should not be an available option for a group finder group to start with. No need for a vote, just grey out the option and do not let it work for GF groups.

I do not know who is the relevant person for this but @ZOS_GinaBruno seems to be the go-to person.

Outside of dungeon finder leader can kick anybody. Pretty needed as people might log off without leaving group as one example and you want room for more people in say a Cyrodil run or trial farming.

And a agree its no need for disband in group finder, it has some purpose in other groups like an trial but I say its better for all just to leave as people might be trading.

Ishtarknows · March 2022

Jusey1 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

But the scenario described (in a rather long-winded manner) seems a bit ... niche in my experience. There are exactly two dungeons in the game where this scenario applies (UHG and RPB)

I know at least four dungeons off the top of my head that has secret bosses.

But the other ones require 4 people in order to reach the secret bosses. A full group.

Coatmagic · March 2022

+1

Super annoying when pug members are puttering around happily poking into every sack and crate and the leader decides they are through and so is everyone else. Has irked me more than once (since I am one of those that enjoys hanging around and pawing at all the containers afterward!)

Jusey1 · March 2022

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

But the scenario described (in a rather long-winded manner) seems a bit ... niche in my experience. There are exactly two dungeons in the game where this scenario applies (UHG and RPB)

I know at least four dungeons off the top of my head that has secret bosses.

But the other ones require 4 people in order to reach the secret bosses. A full group.

Only two requires three players, not four. The other two don't have a player requirement.

Agenericname · March 2022

Jusey1 wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

But the scenario described (in a rather long-winded manner) seems a bit ... niche in my experience. There are exactly two dungeons in the game where this scenario applies (UHG and RPB)

I know at least four dungeons off the top of my head that has secret bosses.

But the other ones require 4 people in order to reach the secret bosses. A full group.

Only two requires three players, not four. The other two don't have a player requirement.

Black Drake Villa requires 4 players to stand on the plates to access the first secret boss. The others could technically be done with 2 as far as I know. In Dread Cellar each secret boss increases the number of players required to interact with the crystals with the last being 4.

March of Sacrifices and Unhallowed Grave dont have any specific requirements, as far as I know. Ive never done RBP so Im not sure about them.

JanTanhide · March 2022

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

But the scenario described (in a rather long-winded manner) seems a bit ... niche in my experience. There are exactly two dungeons in the game where this scenario applies (UHG and RPB)

I know at least four dungeons off the top of my head that has secret bosses.

But the other ones require 4 people in order to reach the secret bosses. A full group.

I don't know about all of the dungeons with secret bosses but Black Drake can be done with two people (except first and last secret bosses). You can reach the 2nd and 3rd secret bosses with two people. Was farming Black Drake yesterday when we noticed we could reach the 2nd and 3rd secret bosses with only 2 in our group.

Jusey1 · March 2022

Agenericname wrote: »

Only two requires three players, not four. The other two don't have a player requirement.

Black Drake Villa requires 4 players to stand on the plates to access the first secret boss. The others could technically be done with 2 as far as I know. In Dread Cellar each secret boss increases the number of players required to interact with the crystals with the last being 4.

March of Sacrifices and Unhallowed Grave dont have any specific requirements, as far as I know. Ive never done RBP so Im not sure about them.

RPB requires three so there is only three plates to stand on. I also didn't knew about Dread Cellar having secret bosses.

AlnilamE · March 2022

duagloth wrote: »

one player should be able to stay without punishment, no need for a vote. im leaving when im done regardless, im not cool with being held up because someone else wants to stay.

With the new option to leave instance from group menu, that's what I always pick if I'm not the last person in the group. That way if someone wants to look for chests or whatever, they can do that while I vendor and decon before the next dungeon.

If I'm done and I see that someone is still in group and in the dungeon, I ask if it's ok for me to leave, and if they don't say anything, I do. It's not a big deal.

DreamsUnderStars · March 2022

So the tl;dr version is that we should have a vote to disband if the Crown leaves the group instead of just auto-disbanding it? I thought the crown just passed to another person...

AlnilamE · March 2022

DreamsUnderStars wrote: »

So the tl;dr version is that we should have a vote to disband if the Crown leaves the group instead of just auto-disbanding it? I thought the crown just passed to another person...

The crown has two options in the group menu: Leave (which passes the crown to another person) or Disband Group.

So if crown leaves (or crashes) crown gets passed to someone else, but if they choose to disband the group, the group poofs.

adyreonb14_ESO · March 2022

Zuboko wrote: »

To be honest, you had me convinced with the title ... so I really did not read much else.

Agreed. Get rid of disband option.

SilverBride · March 2022

Maybe the problem isn't with disbanding the group but rather with removing members of the group from the instance when the group disbands. Is it really necessary for this to happen?