Battlespirit is not the solution! (pve vs pvp balance suggestion)

ZeroDPS · February 2022

Good day brave soldiers! Please read this suggestion and vote!

Okay, what we have right now to keep that thin string of balance between PvE and PvP are:
1. Battle Spirit:
Increase Health by 5000.
Reduce damage taken by 50%.
Reduce healing received and damage shield strength by 50%.
Increase range of abilities with greater than 28m range by 8m in Cyrodiil.
2. Buffs/Nerfs/fundamental changes to sets/passives and almost everything in game

Result: both camps of players complaining about them! This is fact and just accept it!

So both first and second points of balance are very general for very specific situations, in other words they are trying sometimes to kill a bird with nuclear(50 megaton) bomb or the opposite heal the wounded without arms and legs with aspirin.... Hmm something terribly wrong here don't you think so?
Look for example some players complaining about some sets overperforming/underperforming same about skills/passives/buffs/debuffs, but this approach will not fix the problem...

Okay having said that, here is my solution to balance:
What if we create coefficient for everything depending on where we currently are(in pvp zone(including duels BGs IC) or in pve world)?
Let me give you some examples. For instance Skill A hits for 5000 damage in pve, for pvp we can add coefficient like 0.6f to damage output FOR CURRENT skill only, so in pvp same skill gonna hit for 5000*0.6f = 3000 damage. And apply this logic to EVERYTHING! Skills/passives/LA/HA/healing/health/racials/sets(we can use this coefficient event for 2/3/4/5 bonuses of sets) and other things.

If the back end programming is done correctly considering all programming principles, we can add a config file with those coefficients so every single skill/set will automatically adjust itself depending where the player is. As soon as we change state to pvp all coefficients for pvp will be activated at once! That's it! No more complains about IMBA things in game.
And in dev's hands will be very powerful tool to FINE TUNE everything without cutting all the things in general!!!
Yes some(maybe much) work must be done, but in the other hand this must be fixed some day right?

So what do you think guys about this?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

Wolfpaw · February 2022

No more health in battle spirit.

gariondavey · February 2022

You do know they removed the 5000 hp thing, right? Like quite some time ago.

ZeroDPS · February 2022

I have just copied from their site, and this is just an example, doesnt matter what gives/takes battle spirit @gariondavey

Riptide · February 2022

Personally speaking, re PVP balance as well as vet overland I’ve been harping about for years (not to derail to that), I think you have to take a deep sigh and understand that the part of the team that works on the client, storage, number crunching etc is actually a very small part of the team.

The lion’s share of the spend gets made on new area development and marketing. In game admins and full time workers for the crunching is a small area.

Zenimax is like a race car team that budgets to get very quality engines but the frame, body, etc workers and pit crew are on a very strict budget.

And so we have to accept that things in this area will not be anything like perfect, and account for it.

In the case of vet overland, for years the perfect has gotten in the way of the decent and so no solution has been approached seriously.

And in the case of PVP (of which I spent a great deal of time at myself), you simply have a better chance at getting them to nudge battlespirit formulas than creating a whole new system. And you can either play the meta or go hard mode and play something situational or otherwise outside of it.

It isn’t anything like perfect, but it is as good as it gets - and at least there is that.

Just my thoughts

ZeroDPS · February 2022

@Riptide it is not new system, its something like this

config file with coefficients:
Skill A coefficient for pve: 1
Skill A coefficient for pvp: 0.4

and in code:

if(Player.getPlayerInstanceType().equals("pvp")){
Player.getSkillById(someId).setCoefficient(Skill A coefficient for pvp);
//same logic for sets and other things if the code is good will not be much lines of code afterwards
}

thats it

Riptide · February 2022

Ah, so basically fine tune each skill for pvp.

Makes sense. The devil’s advocate in me wonders at the performance implications, and the blunt instrument of reducing group sizes we’ve seen as the way they handle that.

Still it makes sense, and I’d think something like it actually in place. Nightblade skills come to mind, been a minute but I recall some of those skills performing markedly different in pvp but never went to crunching numbers re: player AC and so on.

Necrotech_Master · February 2022

i like battle spirit because its very clear obvious numbers for the user to take into account instead of hiding it in the code (which is why i like things such as omnistats addon to be able to show more numbers than what we get on the character sheet or advanced stats panels)

this type of thing would just make it much much harder to keep track of what does what, and if your applying a coefficient that is what battle spirit does anyway (all dmg/2 and all healing/2 for simple example)

it sounds like what your suggesting is just increase the bonus on battle spirit to be 60 or 70% reduced dmg instead of 50 based on some of your examples, they would need a full team of people to "individually" balance every single skill/proc/effect in the game with different coefficients as you describe them

so i would be heavily against making the pve/pvp logic even more obscure and convoluted

ZeroDPS · February 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i like battle spirit because its very clear obvious numbers for the user to take into account instead of hiding it in the code (which is why i like things such as omnistats addon to be able to show more numbers than what we get on the character sheet or advanced stats panels)

this type of thing would just make it much much harder to keep track of what does what, and if your applying a coefficient that is what battle spirit does anyway (all dmg/2 and all healing/2 for simple example)

it sounds like what your suggesting is just increase the bonus on battle spirit to be 60 or 70% reduced dmg instead of 50 based on some of your examples, they would need a full team of people to "individually" balance every single skill/proc/effect in the game with different coefficients as you describe them

so i would be heavily against making the pve/pvp logic even more obscure and convoluted

@Necrotech_Master you did not get my point at all, my numbers in example are just for EXAMPLE, and battle spirit cuts only 2 things and not for instance Selene proc damage in particular, you cant scale everything dividing by 2.....
maybe we need meteor damage cut in half but not selene proc damage in half, now you understand me?

Necrotech_Master · February 2022

ZeroDPS wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i like battle spirit because its very clear obvious numbers for the user to take into account instead of hiding it in the code (which is why i like things such as omnistats addon to be able to show more numbers than what we get on the character sheet or advanced stats panels)

this type of thing would just make it much much harder to keep track of what does what, and if your applying a coefficient that is what battle spirit does anyway (all dmg/2 and all healing/2 for simple example)

it sounds like what your suggesting is just increase the bonus on battle spirit to be 60 or 70% reduced dmg instead of 50 based on some of your examples, they would need a full team of people to "individually" balance every single skill/proc/effect in the game with different coefficients as you describe them

so i would be heavily against making the pve/pvp logic even more obscure and convoluted

@Necrotech_Master you did not get my point at all, my numbers in example are just for EXAMPLE, and battle spirit cuts only 2 things and not for instance Selene proc damage in particular, you cant scale everything dividing by 2.....
maybe we need meteor damage cut in half but not selene proc damage in half, now you understand me?

i said in my post what you noted was examples

i also still completely disagree that we should make it convoluted and waste the dev time trying to individually balance everything, they already seem to have a hard enough time just balancing the current existing skills and procs under the current ruleset

there also is no way to keep track of what is considered a proc for the no-proc cyro, how do you expect them to display the dmg scaling for each individual skill and proc?

i see this suggestion as another "lets nerf the ganker" playstyle by nerhammering all of the procs that do "high" dmg even more than what battle spirit already does

Merforum · February 2022

The interesting thing is that 'battle spirit' is a good idea but it uses blanket NERFs rather than CAPS. If for instance, you wanted to make healing less effective in PVP, instead of a blanket nerf of 50%, they should have a cap of let's say 2K/sec for HOT or 4K for burst heal. Also they should do stuff like you can only have ONE healing source on you at one time, NO STACKING, same with shields. That way you do not penalize the people who are way below the cap by cutting their already low healing in half and you do cap people who find insane bugs to get outrageous healing even with the nerf.

They can put the caps across the board, like 5K w/s damage would be good. Cap crit chance at 75% (this is supposed to be a CHANCE it should NEVER be 100%). ETC.

BTW to the second point they must STOP BREAKING stuff in either PVE or PVP that is might be OP in one setting but not the other. As perfect example all proc sets should never have been changed in PVE. Also UI/UU/ND should not be changed in PVE at all. Some people try to say no you can't make a set useless in just one setting, and yet most of these nerf make the sets useless in all settings, for instance proc sets until they adding the insane scaling. BTW proc sets were NEVER OP at all until the added scaling with unlimited weapon damage, some people were able to cheese up to 8K, which is why there should be a CAP on that.

Fennwitty · February 2022

I'm not going to give a prescription but I really wish PvP and PvE were balanced separately on more occasions rather than less.

There's constant whiplash every single patch.

1. Buff or change something for PvE
2. Unintended consequences
3. Nerf to oblivion

The reverse also happens, but less frequently.

Vevvev · February 2022

Kinda wish PvE played more like PvP in a sense that our enemies behaved more intelligently. They'll happily stay in AoE instead of try to get out of it or move around instead of staying in your face performing one attack every so many seconds. Fix that and PvE might shift a little bit more to how PvP content is with how we use our abilities and stuff. There'd still be differences like burst vs sustained DPS, but it'd definitely change some of the balancing between the two.

Amottica · February 2022

First, it is really just another battle spirit. It would likely add to the server load by increasing the computations and having to track where we are to determine what to do.

In the end, it does not make sense because we have PvP and PvE. No reason to have different battle spirit designs for Cyrodiil, IC, BGs, and duels.

ZeroDPS · February 2022

Amottica wrote: »

First, it is really just another battle spirit. It would likely add to the server load by increasing the computations and having to track where we are to determine what to do.

In the end, it does not make sense because we have PvP and PvE. No reason to have different battle spirit designs for Cyrodiil, IC, BGs, and duels.

@Amottica you think it is anotherr battle spirit which is cutting in half everything? like -50%?

I think my suggestion is fine tune to every single aspect of balance...

@all Idk guys, honestly seing your votes and comments just do not complain on balance or ZOS changes, they are doing it right then....

Amottica · February 2022

ZeroDPS wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

First, it is really just another battle spirit. It would likely add to the server load by increasing the computations and having to track where we are to determine what to do.

In the end, it does not make sense because we have PvP and PvE. No reason to have different battle spirit designs for Cyrodiil, IC, BGs, and duels.

you think it is anotherr battle spirit which is cutting in half everything? like -50%?

I think my suggestion is fine tune to every single aspect of balance...

@all Idk guys, honestly seing your votes and comments just do not complain on balance or ZOS changes, they are doing it right then....

The suggestion is so vague it really just says to Zenimax, adjust everything so it is in balance. They already try to balance everything which is why we have everything from skills to sets buffed and nerfed all the time.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · February 2022

Battle sprit is fine, but I would like the role you queue as into a bg or cyrodiil to change the effects of battle spirit. Make roles more defined in pvp and less builds that can do everything good.

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Battlespirit is not the solution! (pve vs pvp balance suggestion)

Battlespirit is not the solution! (pve vs pvp balance suggestion) 12 votes